 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Maruja
Date: 2024-02-08 16:06
Hallo All
Thanks for your replies to an earlier post. This is a request for more advice...
I have just bought a student Yamaha basic model bass (thanks to Dawkes, Maidenhead, who gave me terrific service). I have a BD5 mp which I used on my old Bundy and wondered if anyone could recommend reeds to go with this set up?
Also, a supplementary, the technician said that I could have the springs loosened if I wished - this might make playing easier (I am small with small hands). I had not heard of this possibility before and wonder what people think. In the end, I opted for keeping things as they are, but I could change my mind when I get it serviced in the future...
Any advice gratefully received.
M
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2024-02-08 18:11
Maruja,
I have upgraded woodwinds many times over my 70 years of playing clarinets, saxophones, and flutes. My procedure was always to change things one at a time. Start with your current setup of mouthpiece and reeds on the new instrument and change nothing else.
Play the instrument for a while (days or even weeks) and see how things feel. What's the same and what is different? What is better or worse?
I'd be very reluctant to make any changes until you know exactly why you are doing them. You may find that you are happy with what you have as those Yamaha student bass clarinets play very well.
Remember, it is tough to get the toothpaste back in the tube.
Hank
Post Edited (2024-02-10 06:59)
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-02-08 19:56
Like Hank says, there's no harm is getting a feel for the bass as it is, but if the tech said that you can loosen the springs, then that strikes me as the way to go. There's no benefits in having the action heavier that it needs to be, providing it all works properly mechanically. The naturally lighter action keys can be left a bit heavier than necessary to even out the overall keywork playing feel.
Basses are a bit " truck drivin' ", so it's good to look after your hands and tendons.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Maruja
Date: 2024-02-08 21:02
Thank you all. Just another supplementary
which are the 'naturally lighter action keys?'
The key I find the most problematic to get to quickly is the throat b - the technician put an extender on which has helped, but perhaps having that lightened up might also be a good plan?
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Author: Reese Oller
Date: 2024-02-08 22:11
I also recommend getting the springs loosened. I didn't do that a few months back when I got a Prestige and I regretted it. I almost destroyed my hands! I loosened up some springs (like on the LH low D) and now I'm fine.
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-02-08 22:35
The tech must have offered the possibility for lightening some springs because they knew there was some margin for that, but only they can tell you which keys/ springs those are. Springs that hold pads closed in rest position must be strong enough to prevent the pads blowing open. Springs that hold pads open in rest position must be strong enough the open them briskly and without sluggish response.
The more we have to stretch with hand and finger, the more the hand and finger's dynamic for applying pressure is reduced, so I think you should get those springs lightened as much as possible, to make playing with small hands as easy as possible.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Reese Oller
Date: 2024-02-08 23:02
Julian, I have that problem with my LH Eb/Ab key, how would I go about fixing that myself?
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2024-02-08 23:17
Hi All,
Reese, why do you "recommend getting the springs reduced..." and Julian, why should this person "get those springs lightened...."
Do you have knowledge about this particular person's physical attributes, examined the instrument in question, or considered any other factors to come up with your solution? Are you an experienced musician, an established teacher, or a qualified technician?
Please enlighten me as to how you can up with your recommendations.
Hank
PS My father was a very good physician. He told me that two important keys to his success as a doctor were that he was observant and knew what not to do.
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Author: Reese Oller
Date: 2024-02-08 23:33
The reason I recommended it is that the tech did, and they generally know what they're talking about. It was also out of concern, and I don't want anyone to go through what I almost did just in case. I used to use a Yamaha and some springs were quite strong.
Just in case!
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-02-09 00:26
Hi Hank,
Well for me it's just a straightforward physics thing. When you pick up a cup, you don't hold it more firmly than you have to. The same goes for spring tension.I don't think that any tech would see adjusting spring tensions as possibly resulting in a toothpaste dilemma. Adjusting spring tensions on a bass is a standart part setting up this instrument, and frankly, if the tech felt they were too high, I'm surprised he didn't just lower them as part of correctly revising the instrument for the customer.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: m1964
Date: 2024-02-09 08:31
Julian ibiza wrote:
> Hi Hank,
> Well for me it's just a straightforward physics thing. When
> you pick up a cup, you don't hold it more firmly than you have
> to. The same goes for spring tension.I don't think that any
> tech would see adjusting spring tensions as possibly resulting
> in a toothpaste dilemma. Adjusting spring tensions on a bass is
> a standart part setting up this instrument, and frankly, if the
> tech felt they were too high, I'm surprised he didn't just
> lower them as part of correctly revising the instrument for the
> customer.
They did offer to the OP to come back for adjustment.
I believe it is a better approach because when/if the OP comes back after playing the instrument for a while, the tech will be able not only adjust springs tension (if required), but also check for leaks, misaligned keys, etc.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2024-02-09 09:46
There's no real reason to not try it the way it is. A "tricky" thing is that a lot of players can't necessarily say if a key is too stiff or not without a direct comparison. Until you try weaker springs you might not know which you prefer.
Statistically speaking, probably more than 80% of players, likely in the ball part of 95%+ prefer lighter springs than just about all woodwind instruments come with from the factory, with clarinets being some of the worst offenders. I occasionally encounter a player who specifically wants keys to be "stiffer" (in comparison with what I prefer), but even that is usually for only a couple of specific keys rather than the entire instrument.
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-02-09 12:28
Hi clarnibass,
Those are indeed my sentiments relating to this OP.
To elaborate a little farther, I think that the general truth of the matter with basses, is that the only way you're going to get the instrument truly playing tip-top, is if you take it to a diligent tech along with your credit card and give them license to put in all the time of fiddling about with it that's truly required . Basses have a way of coming with something of a " to do" list, even if the seller declares that they have been " Setup". If this has not been systematically covered, then seeing how you feel about the instrument is a bit like seeing how you feel about a car that's not gone in for tuning . I appreciate that there can be some personal preference considerations here, but does anybody really think that the OP is someone who would want a heavier action than mechanically necessary?
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Maruja
Date: 2024-02-09 12:51
Gosh, this has raised a can of worms! I am glad to have started this discussion. Just a question. What is the advantage of having stiffer keys? Is it a resistance thing, like a reed for instance?
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-02-09 14:43
That's a very good question for which I too would like to hear a reasoned argument.
Compared to sopranos, bass clarinets have chunky keywork , with larger tone holes to seal and a good bit of interconnected mechanics which means that the compressing of several springs is inevitable in the operating of many of the keys. This all adds up to a good bit of key action which can never really be brought down to an ideal, and I think that that would be most people's take on this.
I'm guessing you stuck we the low Eb, because if you got a low C, then you wound now be wearying a complimentary John Deere baseball cap and thumbing through a tractor operating manual.... Ha-ha !
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-02-09 22:25
That's just as well..... it would only have been a sweaty old hand-me-down.
But your handling of the instrument will is improved if you wear dungarees.... more comfortable than a tuxedo and all.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-02-09 22:27
That's just as well..... it would only have been a sweaty old hand-me-down.
But your handling of the instrument is improved if you wear dungarees.... more comfortable than a tuxedo too.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-02-10 00:22
Maruja,
I just wanted to apologize that your thread seemed to provoke some conflict.
Hank Lehrer offered some VERY excellent general advice in my opinion that is most definitely worth taking with you. Mine was more aimed at addressing the specifics of the information you were offering and I hadn't felt that I was particularly going head to head with Hank. I'm fond of him and respect his knowledge.
So... I'm truly sorry Hank if I stepped on you toes there..... not entirely sure why that was, but I'm sorry anyway.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Reese Oller
Date: 2024-02-10 02:17
Me too. I'm no professional repairman, all I was speaking from was my own limited experience. I apologize.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2024-02-10 02:43
Hi All,
I have communicated privately with Reese and Julian. There is peace in the valley.
Hank
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2024-02-10 13:13
>> Just a question. What is the advantage of having stiffer keys? Is it a resistance thing, like a reed for instance? <<
There isn't really, and the same for weaker keys. Those are relative, so unless you have a specific amount of resistance that a key is stiffer/weaker in comparison with... it's not possible to say.
A key needs to have a reasonable amount of resistance so it's not "limp" e.g. to the point of not returning reliably, or firmly closing the pad it's supposed to, but anywhere between those ends is a matter of preference... with the occasional necessity based on a specific instrument or key design.
Under those limitations, which are actually quite big and cover the range of almost every player's preferences (with some exceptions), the advantage is... it just feels better to some players.
Post Edited (2024-02-10 22:28)
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Author: Maruja
Date: 2024-02-10 21:07
Thanks for all your input - I think we have gone as far as we can with this one.
Just one not relevant question - I have an old plastic clarinet case with a furry interior which is surplus to requirements. How on earth can I get rid of it ecologically? I can't recycle it as plastic because of the lining...
Any thoughts?
M
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-02-10 21:34
If you put it in recycling, than they may do what's needed to recycle it. I can't think of any other way to do it short of removing the lining from the case yourself beforehand.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: graham
Date: 2024-02-11 16:24
On the same general topic: my F sharp/C sharp key tends to bounce and interrupt the flow of the tone such as playing F sharp to E natural or C sharp to B natural. Lowenstein says this requires a stiffer spring (even though this must mean it feels heavier than the others) but my tek said that does not really work. Do people have a view, or is it (albeit counterintuitively) the case that a lighter spring would resolve the issue?
Thanks
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-02-11 19:00
To what extent do you lift off these keys....and to what extent slide off them ?
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: graham
Date: 2024-02-11 19:56
Tricky to be sure, but I would say lift off rather than slide off. My tech said I should try to develop a softer finger action.
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