 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: m1964
Date: 2023-12-06 06:37
Hello,
I am looking for advice: my tech tried to fix this crack using water-thin Starbond brand superglue. The clarinet looked great after he finished sanding and polishing
the area.
The crack, however, opened again and it looks like the glue never went down the crack so after he sanded down the extra glue, the very thin layer left on the surface most likely just fell out.
I want to take a shot at it myself.
Should I slightly widen the crack to allow more space for the glue?
At it's widest portion the crack/opening is still less than 1mm.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2023-12-06 17:59
Unless you get into specialized super glues (and for repairing cracks there is really no need to) most super glues are pretty similar... however there could be some differences, with some being thinner than others (inside the thin category), some might work better against more difficult surfaces, etc. I'm not familiar with that specific brand, and it's almost certainly fine, but maybe worth trying something else just in case.
Some cracks are so narrow that even water or water-thin super glue won't really get into them much. Sometimes dirt and grease can get into the crack (especially when weather and condition change and they might more open some of the time) which make them less likely to glue. You can clean them, up to a point.
Yes enlarging the crack (or just the top of the crack) to create a sort of "funnel" can be a good idea sometimes.
How accurate is your under 1mm measurement? How much under? 1mm (at the top) is a very wide crack. When I'm thinking of cracks that are very narrow I sometimes can't even put a 0.02mm feeler in them, or they are basically completely closed. If a crack is thin enough it might prevent glue from getting into it by a sort of "reversed capillary action" (not a real term and only seemingly reversed), but that would usually happen with under 1mm cracks only if they are under by almost 1mm
The other things like dirt, etc. can increase that issue.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: m1964
Date: 2023-12-06 19:59
Clarnibass,
Thank you very much for your reply.
I will clean the crack with alcohol and try to glue it again.
I plan to widen a small portion of the crack slightly and try gluing that part first to see how/if it works. If it looks good then I will do the rest of the crack.
Thanks again
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2023-12-06 20:37
I would use lighter fluid instead of alcohol, but if that's what you have you could try it. You need to make sure it's completely dry, use compressed air. Do several cycles, and make sure it's completely dried out before gluing it.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: SecondTry
Date: 2023-12-06 20:58
When filling wood cracks (I'm assuming your clarinet is made of wood) of any kind it is often useful to not simply apply glue, but wood shavings to the sight.
Once the glue dries, should it's mixture with the wood shavings be too proud of the surface of the clarinet for your liking, a fine grit (i.e. high grit number) sandpaper might be useful in bringing the bump down.
https://www.musicmedic.com/grenadilla-filler.html
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-12-06 22:51
If the crack is superficial, then this is an ascetic repair. Super glue definitely won't prevent the crack opening further if that's what it wants to do . It's also very brittle and crumbles with sanding. For an ascetic repair you can use black water based wood filler or epoxy. I would try the former as you can water it down a as required and drive it in there. It should then sand smooth nicely .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jarmo Hyvakko
Date: 2023-12-07 02:59
As far as i understand those superficial cracks are usually repaired so, that you scratch that crack little bit more open on the surface, then fill the opening with some grenadilla dust, moisten that dust with super glue and finish the thing with sandpaper.
If the crack opens up after that, it must be bolted.
Jarmo Hyvakko, Principal Clarinet, Tampere Philharmonic, Finland
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-12-07 04:06
I'll leave it to the experts to respond to that, but if it were me, I'd have that pinned or carbon fiber banded.
...................Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: m1964
Date: 2023-12-07 04:17
The crack looks worse in the photo because of the magnification.
It is not that wide or deep as it may seem looking at the photo.
Post Edited (2023-12-07 04:18)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Reese Oller
Date: 2023-12-07 22:39
That crack in your clarinet is virtually identical to the one that just a few days ago popped up in mine. I don't even know how it happened-- one day I was using it alongside my bass for a musical, I looked at my clarinet and BOOM. A very long crack.
I'm lucky it wasn't my bass clarinet because that thing was extremely expensive.
Still sad about my soprano though, it was great for jazzy stuff-- and I hope it can continue to be!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: m1964
Date: 2023-12-07 22:50
Reese Oller wrote:
> That crack in your clarinet is virtually identical to the one
> that just a few days ago popped up in mine. I don't even know
> how it happened-- one day I was using it alongside my bass for
> a musical, I looked at my clarinet and BOOM. A very long crack...
Luckily, the one on my clarinet is not deep and the register tone hole has a tube so no problems with pad sealing.
If the crack on yours is not deep I would have it glued first, and hope it would not open up again. Many times such repair would hold just fine.
I wonder when your clarinet cracked, if you practiced and then left your clrainet near open window ... because I've seen one cracked like that.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: stevesklar
Date: 2023-12-07 23:01
Having a tube in the register tonehole may not matter. If the cracks goes to the bore then there will be a leak there. Seeing how the leak is on both sides I would think that would be a possibility. You'll have to remove the register tube and inspect the tonehole cylinder.
When one plays a clarinet, the inner bore gets warmed from the player. The outside surface is colder. As the inside expands it can open up cracks that don't look like cracks.
==========
Stephen Sklar
My YouTube Channel of Clarinet Information
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Reese Oller
Date: 2023-12-08 00:12
I always put my clarinet away after practicing, so I don't see how that could've happened. My clarinet had been unused for about half of an hour, but I warmed the outside up before playing...The bore doesn't appear to be leaking, so there is that.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-12-08 00:56
not leaking......yet
I had a crack in the same spot just a month ago and IMMEDIATELY had in pinned.
Best $300 I've spent in awhile.
............Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: stevesklar
Date: 2023-12-08 02:53
Leak what?
fluid?
it may not leak fluid, but it may be an extremely small crack which will leak air. Think of the clarinet as a "pressured" tube with one open end. If there is a miniscule leak anywhere before the open end then the instrument may "play fine" for people but would be lacking the deep tone others would expect due to a small leak and may have very minor playing issues. And it may, after 10 minutes of playing start having larger inconsistencies (due to expansion).
Also you mention "surface" crack. The tonehole cylinder itself has a surface going to the bore. Yes there is a metal tube there but a thin surface crack down the tonehole could be possible.
Dependent upon ambient temperature, the outside may cool faster than the inside. Thus causing opposing forces and cause a crack. Warming up the outside is totally dependent upon the outside temperature which needs to be warmed to the bore for stable wood. At different layers of the wood you could have different temperatures. There is a lot to that .. such as if one comes inside from winter temperatures, and various other things.
The one thing you do know, is that there is a long crack there.
but to each their own
==========
Stephen Sklar
My YouTube Channel of Clarinet Information
Post Edited (2023-12-08 04:56)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-12-09 14:12
This may be a superficial crack inasmuch as it hasn't reached the bore, but it's a long structural crack extending towards the tenon. When a piece of wood cracks, then it's natural tensions and movements from climatic variation become focused there, and will continue to be until it is well reinforced with pins. Ie. the crack will work,opening and closing minutely. If repaired only with glue, then that glue's bonding strength must be greater than that of the interlocking wood fibers that tore, forming the crack in the first place. A lot to expect of any glue , especially when the two surfaces can't be separated to clean and properly apply it. Super glue is used in conjunction with pinning, really only as a filler that will flow into the hairline crack to prevent air leakage. It is of itself a poor wood glue, lacking elasticity and good bonding to wood. Filling such an extended crack without pinning is likely it make it extend still further, as you are effectively putting a non bonding wedge into a working crack, without having arrested the crack's movement. While the crack may not now reach the bore, it likely will if filled without pinning. Pinning should leave the instrument stronger than new and I would strongly recommend you do it before the crack extends any further.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: John Peacock
Date: 2023-12-09 19:20
I'd pin it. It's too big for me to feel it's safe just with gluing, and banding is just ugly: however well executed, it's always obvious that something has been done - whereas pinning can be invisible if done well.
Post Edited (2023-12-09 19:44)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-12-09 19:38
Gosh Imliberson,
..... what material is it made of ?
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: m1964
Date: 2023-12-09 20:34
lmliberson wrote:
"Whadaya think - pin, glue, or band?"
Donor joint?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: smokindok
Date: 2023-12-09 21:59
Mr. Liberson, I think the photo makes that crack look worse than it really is. A little superglue will fix it.
I have been blessed with limited crack experience, one in an R13 and one in a B&H 1010. It was surprising how much and how quickly the crack could change back and forth from being nearly undetectable to being very prominent. Once pinned, they remained stable. (Actually the R13 was both pinned and carbon fiber banded.) I join in the recommendation of getting it pinned.
John
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-12-09 22:47
Imliberson,
To put aside the unsettling impression that your instrument was photographed lying on the floor of a dojo, I would go on to observe that it has broken right through the body like a carrot and so offers quite a high surface area for glueing. If it's Greenline or a similar composite,then I imagine it's epoxy based, in which case epoxy would be the glue to use. Once glued in place in can be further reinforced by bridging the break with a few pins set in with black epoxy.Obviously establishing the right glue for the material is fundamental, but that established I would say that a perfectly decent and tidy repair should be possible.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: lmliberson
Date: 2023-12-10 02:05
Honestly...I can't believe that anyone would have taken my post seriously!
Marcia got it right - although I already have eight clarinets so no more are needed here!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: donald
Date: 2023-12-10 02:16
I had an old plastic student clarinet broken like that, I left it in the garage long enough for someone to break in and steal it. Lucky me.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: m1964
Date: 2023-12-10 03:03
lmliberson wrote:
"Honestly...I can't believe that anyone would have taken my post seriously!.."
You may underestimate players' attachment to their instruments.
I know someone who would not part with the R13 his parents bought him in 1971. He played it to the point that the 3-ring key had to be replaced, major work was done to try to make it play in tune (it does not anymore) but the player would not sell it.
In your case, if you do not have such attachment then you may just sell the remaining parts. The keys from that upper joint can be valuable. I know a tech who has a repaired upper joint but without keys.
With eight clarinets, I do not know where you find time to play all of them .
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: lmliberson
Date: 2023-12-10 03:55
You misunderstood, I believe.
First, my original post was nothing more than a joke. Apparently, a good deal of you took it as fact. Uhhh…sorry? That broken instrument is not related to me in any way, other than a lovely photograph!
Next, the number of instruments I own were necessary (in my own mind) for my job. And, yes, I was - and still am! - quite attached to them. Otherwise, I’d have a bit more space available in my house. 🙄
The Bb and A clarinets I use were all purchased in 1986 (not that it should really matter). I have two of each as I needed to have spare instruments available just in case. My two Eb’s dare from 1981 and 1996, my C from 1995 and my D from the late 1980’s, I believe. That totals eight - all of which have been played often over the years.
However, I’m retired now so I don’t need to find the time to play them all - but I do! 👍🏻
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2023-12-10 14:26
Attachment: 20180410_190444.jpg (285k)
Attachment: 20180410_190352.jpg (258k)
Attachment: 20180413_194126.jpg (347k)
Attachment: 20180414_135333.jpg (331k)
Attachment: 20180418_131621.jpg (324k)
>> The crack looks worse in the photo because of the magnification.
>> It is not that wide or deep as it may seem looking at the photo.
It's very easy to resize the window so the photo is about real life size... and the crack is not particularly small. It's pretty wide and long. It also goes through the register tube hole.
This doesn't mean that it has to be pinned, banned, or require any repair other than gluing. The only way to know is to glue it in a reliable way and see if it opens again.
I pin and/or band cracks when I consider this is necessary, but I almost always try glue only at first (including for cracks that are worse than this) and statistically most don't re-open with glue only, including ones that look terrible and worse than this one.
>> my original post was nothing more than a joke. <<
Sure, but it's entirely possible to repair that. If you know the material and there's a welding glue available, then it might be worth considering. I don't trust this because unless you've tried a specific glue on a specific material then you can't really know for sure what the material is (and it could be very similar to something but slightly different).
Any glue like epoxy etc. can hold if you are very careful, but not good enough to guarantee the repair as far as I'm concerned.
The two main methods are a graft or pinning. I prefer the latter when possible because it's faster, less expensive, with no down side (just as strong). You use length-wise pins between the parts along with glue, which both adds support and increases the contact area of the glue by a lot. A graft is done when the break is too scattered to save.
I don't have the best photo but attached example of a repair that involves a graft with reinforcement pins (so pretty much both methods at the same time).
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
