 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-10-02 20:39
Attachment: P1010030.JPG (698k)
When it's an E13!
I've got what I thought was a Buffet RC (Bb) in for a service and it doesn't have any of the features on the lower joint as I'd expect as there's no cut-out under the RH F#/C# and E/B touches or crow's foot and the crow's foot is a stamped out sheet metal affair instead of the usual bent wire with the soldered on Pac-Man bit on the end.
The speaker tube is in the usual location for an RC which is nearer the tenon compared to an R13. The serial number also has an F prefix which any normal RC won't have. It's an older model from when they still used proper point screws with the full length threaded section as opposed to the ones with the plastic collars.
Attached is a photo showing the RC stamp, the smooth lower joint surface under the RH touches and the crow's foot.
I tried doing a serial number search, only it draws a blank whenever I try - the serial number being F326948:
https://www.buffet-crampon.com/en/serial-number-search/
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2023-10-02 21:03)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-10-02 21:06
My understanding is that the RC designation only refers to the bore configuration. The Divine is NOT designated as such but is.
…………Paul Aviles
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-10-02 21:24
I've worked on more RCs than I can remember as they're fairly popular here in the UK, but have never seen an RC with those E11 features until I saw this one.
Makes me wonder now if there's an E13 with an RC lower joint and serial numbers doing the rounds.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Selmer Buff
Date: 2023-10-02 23:23
'F' on the serial number designates it was delivered in France. Serial number on mine is F55xxxx that I purchased in France.
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Author: pukalo
Date: 2023-10-03 00:17
It should be noted that the serial number lookup on Buffet's website has been broken for years at this point. Also I thought the "F" designation before the serial number indicates it was made for the European A=442 market. My R13 has an F serial number and I sometimes have to make adjustments while playing to tune correctly with the rest of the ensemble.
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Author: prigault
Date: 2023-10-03 01:07
Chris P wrote:
> no cut-out under the RH F#/C# and E/B touches
> ..
> the smooth lower joint surface under the RH
Smooth with no cut-out, exactly as my Bb and A RCs.
These cut-outs are present only on my Festival (R-13 family bore).
> The serial number also has
> an F prefix which any normal RC won't have.
Both my RCs, bought in France in 1985 (Bb) and 1992 (A), have an F prefix.
Post Edited (2023-10-03 01:10)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-10-03 03:04
The older RC A counterpart (serial no. 205xxx) to this Bb has the cut-outs under the RH touches. This is the first standard (non-Prestige) RC I've seen without the cut-outs and has the student model crow's foot which isn't something I was expecting. As I've already said, I've worked on many RCs which are popular clarinets here and that's RCs of all ages from the old RC UK models, RC Prestiges, RCs from the '80s, '90s, '00s and '10s - the most recent standard model RC having the silver badge on them, smooth tenon cork slots and that useless adjusting screw on the RH F/C overlever.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2023-10-03 04:28)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2023-10-03 08:49
I'm not sure about that type of crow's foot, my memory is not good enough to say whether actual RC clarinets ever had this or not.
As far as the F S/N and no cutouts, both are 100% normal for an actual RC or RC Prestige.
An F S/N supposedly means it's for the European market, but AFAIK there are also non-F ones for the European market. As far as pitch, non-F Buffet clarinets are regularly played at 442 with no issues at all.
You can look up my old thread about the cutouts (or lack of) on the RC and RC Prestige. I've see several of both models, which were without question real RC and RC Prestige lower sections, without the cutouts. This by itself is not a sign that the lower section is not from a real RC. In fact it seems that most RC and RC Prestige clarinets don't have the cutouts, at least the somewhat older ones I've seen.
The RC and RC Prestige clarinets I've seen (more than a few) have been mostly from the 80s until around 2010. I've only seen a couple of newer ones.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2023-10-03 09:03
>> I've worked on more RCs than I can remember as they're fairly popular here in the UK, but have never seen an RC with those E11 features until I saw this one. <<
I looked up photos of an RC Prestige which I got from a customer back when I was researching this "spec". This one is from around 2000. F S/N, no cutouts, but the "normal" crow's foot.
So it's really only the crow's foot that might be suspicious and a "E11 feature". I wouldn't rule out that they have used it sometimes. Even just a batch, if not a one-off, where they needed to get these finished but lacked the regular part. I've seen a few Buffet clarinets (and heave heard of several more) with small unusual changes from normal along the years.
Does the trill B/F# key have a rod screw or pivot screws?
Does the lower section say Made in France?
It's likely this one wasn't distributed originally to the UK, but even that is possible (they may have sent an F one if that's all they had, the distributor was ok with it, it just happened and no one noticed, or any of the several other possible scenarios).
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2023-10-03 13:09
The business of the cut-outs is odd. For years I thought they were a universal feature of Buffets, but recently I came across two instruments without them. These were a pair of BC20s (though not matched: Bb from 1983 and A from 1976). The result is that the RH keys are a little higher than where they normally sit, in order not to collide with the body when pressed. I did find it strange that they would have two different size key assemblies - although it just comes down to pillars being longer than usual, so not much of a change. But it must surely have been a deliberate design experiment, rather than someone fotgetting to do the cut-out - unless the guy with the job of doing cut-outs was on holiday for a week?
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Author: prigault
Date: 2023-10-03 15:13
The crow's foot on both my RCs looks exactly like the one on the picture, it is not an E13 feature.
John Peacock wrote:
> The result
> is that the RH keys are a little higher than where they
> normally sit, in order not to collide with the body when
> pressed.
Exactly.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-10-03 17:29
It IS an E13 crow's foot as it's formed from a single piece of stamped out sheet metal bent into shape rather than the two piece ones they normally use on pro level clarinets. The use of cheaper parts to shave off a few pennies/cents to keep production costs down isn't always reflected in the retail price.
The B/F# 'sliver' key is mounted as expected for an RC/R13 using a rod screw with the touchpiece and pad cup arms soldered along the entire length of the sides of the key barrel, as opposed to the E13 style mounted between oboe point screws and with the key rod going through the touchpiece and pad cup arms to save on the amount of solder used as we all know, solder is a very expensive thing and savings have to be made somewhere.
That's what happens when accountants run the place.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: donald
Date: 2023-10-04 05:08
My RC A clarinet, which I no longer own- I THINK it was from the 1980s though I never dated it- was like this. "RC" on the top joint, no cut out under the keys. That detail I remember distinctly.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2023-10-04 19:23
Hi Chris,
How does it play?
Does it have the bell with widened bore on the tenon side? Until recently it was another characteristic of an RC.
Post Edited (2023-10-04 19:25)
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Author: donald
Date: 2023-10-05 01:48
m1964 do you mean the enlargement bellow the bell tenon? Early RC clarinets did not have this... I recall in the 1980s no one had ever heard of it- as far as I know Buffet started this in the mid 1990s though I could be wrong. I knew a player with brand spanking new RCs in the 80s that didn't have it, and my RC A clarinet mentioned above was 70s or 80s vintage and didn't have it.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2023-10-05 08:17
>> It IS an E13 crow's foot... <<
Yes but...
>> The crow's foot on both my RCs looks exactly like the one on the picture <<
I guess it's a matter of believing other posts or not. This makes it three RC clarinet with this style of crow's foot.
All the other features in the OP clarinet - F serial number, no cutouts, B/F# trill key - are all 100% normal RC features. The crow's foot is the only feature that implied it might not be, but it seems that the "E13 style foot" was used on the RC sometimes based on these three clarinets.
Seem that is more than enough evidence to suggest it's a genuine RC lower section.
Other than the trill B/F# key and (I guess most of the time) the crow's foot, does anyone know what is the actual difference between an RC lower section and an E13 lower section? I haven't measured the bores and can't remember much else.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-10-05 14:17
The bell isn't chambered on this RC - they were chambered for a while at some point in time which I think was from the late '80s to the late '90s, but that didn't last.
The RH F#/C# and E/B touchpieces do sit higher on this RC compared to others with the typical cut-outs - the tops of the touches is level with the tops of the RH ring key pillars whereas others with the cut-outs are set lower so the tops of the touchpieces is about level with the base of the pillar head. It does reduce the distance in height or gap between the Ab/Eb and F/C touches which makes sliding from Ab/Eb to F#/C# touch easier - more like a Selmer if anything.
The tenon cork slots are wavy on them. Or they were until I machined them flat as wavy (and grooved) tenon slots aren't useful for anything.
I don't know the history of this particular RC, but it's the first I've seen with a F prefix serial number and without the cut-outs and sheet metal crow's foot as all others I've seen with plain serial numbers have the same keywork as an R13 except for the length of the speaker key (which is longer on the RC).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Djudy
Date: 2023-10-05 16:25
Does anyone know when BC started putting the oval silver medallions on the RC Prestige ? Or were they always there since the Prestige started ?
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Author: prigault
Date: 2023-10-05 16:38
I should add that I also had another RC Bb (between around 1981 and 1990, both that and the current one were purchased from the same Buffet dealer in Besancon), and I don't recall anything being different between the two. The fact that an A model purchased a decade later in Paris (Feeling Musique being just about the biggest wind instrument store in Paris can hardly be accused of dealing modified clarinets, and I am pretty sure it did not sit long on their shelves after being manufactured) had exactly the same characteristics lead me to believe that a fair amount of RCs, at least in the french market, were exactly like that.
My RCs did not seem to strike Buffet techs as lesser models when I had them worked on in their Paris shop (Rue Blanche, just down the street from Rue Lepic, very convenient, they used to do small adjustments for free there in the nineties). And the replacement by Buffet of the thumb rest by the much more comfortable one from the Elite didn't make the instruments (or player, unfortunately) more of a pro model ;-)
> That's what happens when accountants run the place.
Legend has it that the visitors of the museum of wind instruments in La Couture Boussey (Normandie)
https://artsandculture.google.com/story/la-couture-boussey-the-historic-home-of-wind-instruments-musee-des-instruments-a-vent/yAUhABta3jHmLg?hl=en
can distinctly hear from beyond the grave the voice of defunct innovative french brands Couesnon, Noblet and Leblanc singing: "We wish we had been run by accountants..."
Post Edited (2023-10-05 21:30)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-10-05 17:44
R13 and RC Prestige models had the silver badge from when they were first introduced in the '80s (as well as having metal tenon tip rings, adjustable thumbrest, LH Ab/Eb lever and unstained wood as standard). More recently and since just after the new Buffet logos were introduced, the standard model RC has a metal badge like a Prestige instead of having the RC stamp on the top joint.
I was shocked to see the price of the metal badges - I thought around £11 for an RC Prestige badge was extortionate several years back, but the cost of them has since skyrocketed (click on the links below). If you've lost your badge, then you can always stick a Ferrero Rocher sticker where the badge once was.
R13 Prestige badge https://www.dawkes.co.uk/badge-prestige-r13-france/8418
RC Prestige badge https://www.dawkes.co.uk/badge-prestige-rc-france/8419
Festival badge https://www.dawkes.co.uk/badge-buffet-festival-clarinet-france/8420
The newer badges have a sprue on the back which is glued into a blind hole drilled into the recess which means they have more staying power, but the older ones had a completely smooth back which is why they usually dropped out. The gap around the edge of them is filled in with Yankee wax.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2023-10-05 20:24
donald wrote:
"m1964 do you mean the enlargement bellow the bell tenon? Early RC clarinets did not have this... I recall in the 1980s no one had ever heard of it- as far as I know Buffet started this in the mid 1990s though I could be wrong. I knew a player with brand spanking new RCs in the 80s that didn't have it, and my RC A clarinet mentioned above was 70s or 80s vintage and didn't have it."
Yes, I meant the chambered bell. I thought it was one of their futures.
My Bb and both A have it - they are late models, bought about one and a half years ago. Both are Prestige models.
BTW, About 1.5 years ago, I had a new "regular" RC A clarinet, and that one had the badge, left Eb lever and was silver-plated. Looked almost like a Prestige but did not have tenon end rings. Also did not have a chambered bell.
Post Edited (2023-10-05 20:55)
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