 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: cbordian
Date: 2023-09-04 07:40
Greetings -
I'm looking for thoughts regarding where the lower lip contacts the reed. Most of the pundits out there recommend taking in as much reed as possible without squeaking, referencing where the mouthpiece curves away from the reed as the contact point. These teachers also say that the lower jaw should jut out slightly.
On the other hand, we have T.R's double lip tutorials, where he illustrates the reed contact by playing with lipstick on and showing the result. The imprint on the reed is much closer to the tip of the mouthpiece. He also suggest tucking the jaw a bit back and having the top lip further down the mouthpiece than the lower lip.
I'm in the midst of trying to adopt double lip, if only as a remedial measure. Understanding that the right answer is generally what works best for the individual (as one example, one could have a natural overbite, or not), just looking for some discussion of what seems to me to be two opposite theories. As well, I'm wondering whether the lower lip contact would be different for single lip than double lip.
I've had one teacher, who plays single lip, refer (just once, almost offhand) to the 'less reed' way, and commenting that it's easier to control the reed and that you can still get all the resonance you need. Other than that, I've not seen anyone recommending this.
I'm surprised that there isn't more out there on the two different approaches.
On a related note, I've noticed that it's more comfortable to have a little less of an angle (clarinet less vertical) when I'm practicing double lip. Is that usual?
Last, how important is the longer, closer, facing for double lip? I've seen that recommendation a couple of times. Which Vandoren (for example)?
Thanks!
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Author: symphony1010
Date: 2023-09-04 11:19
Why would you want to reduce an already small reed gap? And double lip is really something to be avoided in my opinion. Yes, there are a few players doing it but I would suggest it’s far from mainstream and is only going to cause you to overthink even more.
I note that one of the best players-Tony Pay tried to lay much of this to rest here years ago but obviously failed!
For a full, focused sound you need to maintain maximum reed aperture - squeezing the life out of the poor reed will just give you a nasty, tight and inflexible sound.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2023-09-04 23:07
cbordian,
As to T.R.'s double lip method where the lower lip "imprint on the reed is much closer to the tip of the mouthpiece", the only way I can conceive this working is for Tom to purposely have his upper lip further away from the tip in order to prevent side air leakage on long facing lengths. Also, IMO, for Tom to allow the best vibrational swing of the reed, it seems to me that he would have to drop his lower jaw slightly. This certainly is a strange embouchure formation to me, however, we must keep in mind that Tom has a musical performance degree from Yale and graduated with honors. http://zimmer.csufresno.edu/~milesi/ridenour.html
As to your other teacher who recommended the "less reed way", it is true that the reed is easier to control closer to the tip because the reed is thinner there. Doing the traditional "insert until you squeak and then back off a bit" method, I believe the reed would be more difficult to control due to the reed being thicker the further you put your lower lip away from the tip.
As to your greater ease of playing with your clarinet "pushed out further", this I believe is due to the reduction of the beak and reed angles, which would make the upper and lower lip points more vertically in alignment with each other. This, IMO, would certainly make double lip playing more comfortable. This is simply my observation and judgment call.
Post Edited (2023-09-04 23:18)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-09-05 00:32
The quick answer is, NO.
I believe there is no reason to conflate where you make lip contact (how much of the available vibrating surface you control, or how little) with single or double lip. The story on the amount of lip contact is whether you want (or need) all the available vibrating surface of the reed. I know for a fact that David Shifrin believes you should "use all the mouthpiece you paid for." And he teaches at Yale so he must be right too :-) (and I don't believe one's sheep skin makes her or him a great player or teacher either).
Bottom line is you can use as little reed/mouthpiece in your mouth as you want if that works for you, AND you can use double lip if that works for you, but one has nothing to do with the other.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2023-09-05 01:04
Quote:
I'm surprised that there isn't more out there on the two different approaches.
and...
Quote:
...the right answer is generally what works best for the individual...
I kindly offer that you've answered your own question. Why limit yourself to discussions of only two different approaches when you can try many different approaches on your own to find what gives you the exact tone and allows the exact technique that you're after?
For me, discovery is one of the most exciting parts of learning! Test the rules you've been given - break them and see what the results turn out to be. You might find the original rule is the best way - but you'll gain a much deeper understanding of "why" along the way. The approaches you've mentioned should be pretty easy (and relatively quick) to test on your own, and would tell you much more than whatever folks can type here.
Have fun!
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2023-09-05 04:54
cbordian,
I'm glad you brought up using the less than available vibrating portion of the reed. Up to this point in time, I had no idea that some players, for whatever reason, use less than the total vibrating material that is available to them.
The only method I have ever read on this BB has been to use the full length of the available vibrating material of the reed.
I think I sense confusion on your part as to why T.R. and another teacher you've had teach a somewhat similar method than what is to be found on this BB. I can see now how different methods taught by well known individuals can easily lead to confusion to anybody.
I believe the only way to find out what is "right" for you is to follow Fuzzy's advice and that is...to experiment. What works for T.R. and the other teacher that you mentioned may simply not be "right" for you. But...you won't know until you try the different embouchure formations.
And, paraphrasing Fuzzy's remarks at the end of his post..."enjoy the journey!"
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Author: cbordian
Date: 2023-09-06 06:31
Thanks all! Indeed by experimenting with these things I have, at the very least, become more aware of what's going on with my embouchure, and what works for me.
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2023-09-06 12:09
cbordian,
(At the risk of me boring others on the bboard)...
If you haven't tried it before, for fun - I'd suggest turning the mouthpiece around 180 degrees so that the reed is facing away from you, and then try your double-lip embouchure. For me, it was a fun departure from the normal way of looking at things, and provided a few surprises. (I just chose a song that I was comfortable playing to test this way.)
Questions I asked myself as I tried it the first time: Can I produce a tone at all? Is it comfortable? Does my embouchure have to change much? How much mouthpiece do I take in compared to "normal"? How does it effect the angle of the clarinet to my body? Does it change my oral cavity much? Does articulation work properly? Does my embouchure tire more quickly? Will it make me squeak? Does air leak? Does the reed work in its normal position (for articulation)? etc.
I personally found it to be a fun thing to try, and somewhat enlightening pertaining the embouchure in the more general sense.
(In case you're wondering - the idea of trying this "backwards mouthpiece" came from some old fingering charts I have - only later (thanks to others on the bboard) did I learn this "backwards mouthpiece" had a historic playing reference.)
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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Author: petrosv
Date: 2023-09-06 21:07
Benny Goodman switched to double lip so listen to his early and post 50's playing see what you think. Ricardo Morales has a nice video he recommends people play both and illustrates that double opens up your mouth cavity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZUOfN-wQEY
Important note that when Goodman switched at first he could only play the very lowest notes it took him considerable time (you can research it for more exact figure) to be able to play the whole horn. There are discussions of double and single you just have to hunt for them...
Post Edited (2023-09-06 21:11)
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Author: cbordian
Date: 2023-09-14 18:59
Thanks for the upside down mouthpiece suggestion! I remember getting my first clarinet home and being excited to try it (about 50 years ago) and that I had it upside down just because I didn't know better. I'm not exactly sure what it prescribes specifically, but it is interesting! There is a more visceral sense of the interaction between the lip, reed, and mouthpiece.
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