 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Ebclarinet1
Date: 2023-07-28 17:26
The flutist in our quintet is a big proponent of the lefreQues on flute and brought over several different ones to try on my Eb and bass clarinets.
The most consistent improvement was when the lefreQue connected the Icon neckjoint on my Prestige bass clarinet to the body. No change was noted when the lefreQue bridged the mouthpiece to neckjoint. On the Eb, the only connection that was tried was the mouthpiece to barrel. It improved response, especially the rose gold ones.
Am very interested if others have tried these and what improvements if any were observed.
Eefer guy
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-07-28 23:28
I've seen some people using them who have no tone to speak of, so not sure how they can benefit from them if they have no tone to begin with. Do they make someone with no tone have even more no tone?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: oliver sudden
Date: 2023-07-29 01:15
I’ve had a set for quite a few years now. I bought it after an extensive introductory session where I was able to try them on lots of different bits of lots of different clarinets. What I noticed from the beginning was that the clarinet felt less resistant (in a good way). Lots of tricky legato combinations were easier to bring off. They also brought some recording equipment along and recorded me playing various things both with and without lefreques, each both near the microphone and further away. The difference when playing off-mike was particularly striking—basically, with them on I didn’t sound off-mike even when I was.
I don’t use them all the time (besides anything else, I can’t really afford to have a set for every clarinet, and I double a lot). But I keep coming back to them, far more so than with any other ’gadgets’ I’ve tried.
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Author: Hunter_100
Date: 2023-07-29 01:16
If you read their research paper, it seems that the result of this device was to make a piccolo sharper across the whole range of frequencies. I do not know if this is necessarily a good thing...they are usually sharp enough.
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Author: Ebclarinet1
Date: 2023-07-29 02:02
Oliver, That was my opinion too. Over the break was much smoother. I had our flutist stand behind and front of me to see if she also heard the differences and we agreed on what I heard vs, what she heard. Like you, I play a whole family of clarinets and it's too pricey to buy for ALL of them.
Hunter, I didn't see really lots of pitch changes on the bass, maybe a bit on the Eb, but I'm always grateful for that!
Eefer guy
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Author: symphony1010
Date: 2023-07-29 03:09
This is of course complete exploitative rubbish! I feel sad for those who are taken in by such nonsense. If you doubt my word just check out whether any of the finest players embrace this money-grabbing and non-scientific garbage. No serious professional player would believe any of this.
Post Edited (2023-07-29 03:11)
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-07-29 10:04
They sound like the prime candidates for the blind sound test .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2023-07-29 11:49
symphony1010: I've seen several professional flute players use them. I also heard a noticeable difference listening to one professional flute player test them and the difference on her alto flute was substantial. I tried them on clarinet but found the difference for me was negligible.
Have you tried them?
Post Edited (2023-07-29 12:06)
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-07-29 11:51
All these questions can be resolved through a scientific approach to testing.
Is music magical ?....OK!....YES!
Can musical instruments be imbued with magical powers ?....NO!..NO! and NO !
Sometimes debates on this forum seem to take the form of something out of Harry Potter. This inevitably leads to an outcome without any legitimate fact based substance and subsequent resolution.
Who needs to adopt dogmas on matters where " The proof is in the pudding" ?
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: oliver sudden
Date: 2023-07-29 12:20
🤷♂️
Plenty of serious professionals use them. Emmanuel Pahud is probably the best known but I know plenty of others across the whole range of brasses and woodwinds. I’m glad I have them and would recommend trying them out to anyone with an open mind and open ears.
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Author: symphony1010
Date: 2023-07-29 12:35
If there was a serious issue with instruments then manufacturers would change their designs. A company coming along with what is essentially a low-tech 'solution' is really relying on the gullibility of those who are easy prey to these things.
Other than a questionable quote on the company's website I can find no video or photo showing Pahud actually using this in his regular performing. I have no colleagues who use such devices but it's worth remembering that, sadly, there are a few players who are happy to take the money for having their name alongside certain products but rarely if ever use them.
Post Edited (2023-07-29 13:29)
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Author: JTJC
Date: 2023-07-29 14:27
There are several YouTube videos of Emily Beynon using one of these.
While I can see that strapping a lump of metal to a metal tube might have some effect on resonance, I'm less inclined to think it would do much on a wooden instrument. Most artists featured on the lefreQue website play metal instruments (flute, sax, brass). The fact Emily's lefreQue seems to be attached near the joint between the main body and head joint, might suggest the maker of her flute should take symphony1010's advice and change the design of their instrument, by making the joint thicker. I expect Emily is used to her flute and doesn't want make a such a radical adjustment, which might not, in any case, provide the improvement she feels she gets from the lefreQue.
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Author: oliver sudden
Date: 2023-07-29 15:06
They were originally invented for the saxophone, on which there’s no actual contact between the mouthpiece and the body except via a layer of cork. The makers were surprised how successful it was on the flute, since they expected there wouldn’t be much improvement to be had in adding another layer of metal to a joint that’s already a snug fit of metal on metal anyway. But it seems very popular with flautists (indeed lefreque isn’t the only such device available for flutes) and I’ve taken an excellent flautist friend gadget shopping and heard her already amazing high pianissimo become even more miraculous.
I can very readily believe that the transmission of vibrations at clarinet joints is improvable: the wood can’t really be a snug fit except of course via the cork. But to me the proof of the pudding is indeed in the eating: I find my clarinets easier to blow and am happier with the sound that comes out, whatever physically is ‘actually happening’.
I’m writing this in the assumption that there are some people reading it who are interested and/or curious in the topic of the thread, but given the tone of things that assumption might be overly optimistic.
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-07-29 15:30
I can see how these devices are invaluable on something like the Transverse Flute, because there you have only about three inches of metal tenon shoved all the way into a metal socket.....No!.... I don't buy it!
Rather than bridging vibrations between body sections, I'm more open to the possibility that these things may act similarly to wolf-note eliminators, the most effective of which are small weights stuck on the inside of the soundboards of cellos etc. in the corresponding area to the offending wolf-note vibration.
I suspect that the virtues of ligatures such as the Silverstiens probably boil down to the same laws of physics. Namely, they dampen by adding mass, to where that dampening is beneficial.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: lmliberson
Date: 2023-07-29 17:20
The trouble in assessing such a product is that one’s opinion as to its efficacy is nothing more than subjective, IMO.
I have a friend who attached this “jewelry” to her clarinets for several weeks. I have to assume that it was because she perceived a positive difference. Me, in a position to be neutral about it, was unable to discern any difference in the quality of sound, quality of response, quality of legato, etc. Of course, my assessment was totally based on my own biases - uh, subjectivity. She must have ultimately felt the same way because all that “jewelry” soon found its way into a drawer in her studio.
Often we perceive “different” as “better”. Even those supposedly listening to you will hear the difference and think it “better” when it’s really just “different”.
It’s like listening to orchestral auditions (or any auditions, for that matter). Different members of a committee are likely hearing things they like and things that they don’t like which will differ from others on that same committee. Their assessments are based on their own biases.
Same with equipment, I reckon. Everyone is searching for the holy grail. If you honestly believe that this or any particular product is going to make that much of a difference in your playing, then fine, go for it. But I’d be willing to wager that you already have more than a few pieces of equipment stashed in various drawers, cabinets, and the like that were tested and will remain unloved and unused forever.
New and “improved” equipment = placebo effect?
Or you might think of spending a few more minutes practicing to deal with whatever problems you have rather than searching for an external “solution”? But that’s up to you.
Reminds me of a quote from a college band director (from long, long ago…): “You must be able to discriminate between your sound and a good one.” 🙄😂
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Author: Ebclarinet1
Date: 2023-07-29 22:35
I have to say I was just as skeptical as many of you and had sort of written them off as snake oil too. However, our clarinet, horn and flute players in our quintet all had tried them and liked the response they were getting. Our quintet is made up of semi-pros/ pros so I do appreciate their opinions on things.
Anyway, I play oboe in this quintet not clarinet so I had not tried them and the one available for the oboe looked REALLY clunky so it didn't impress me enough to try.
Amway, I brought out the bass and Eefer the other night to give them a try. The mouthpiece to neckjoint connection made no difference on the bass but the neckjoint to top joint made a real difference in response/ sound confirmed by me and the flutist with a blind sound check.
I was similarly dubious about the ICON neck joints from Buffet that are in copper. However, they are MILES better. When I brought them out at rehearsal a whole row of flutes turned around and said WOW. If I had written this off as snake oil I would have never discovered them.
So if I'm guilty of trying to find the next big thing, so be it!
Eefer guy
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-07-30 10:47
The YouTube video " LefreQue presentation at the ONFK Drachter 2022" contains 40 minutes of a LefreQue rep conducting blind sound testing with a brass band. This goes on and on, but ends without the musicians actually being asked to guess when they had the device fitted of not.
I remain open to the possibility that this device offers something, but frankly I associate such methods as those used in this video with those of a conman.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: symphony1010
Date: 2023-07-30 12:11
There may certainly be the possibility that devices attached to instruments could affect the player's perception of sound but the listener may hear little or no change.
The HiFi world is full of people and companies exploiting similar cons with regard to cables, DACs and valve amplifiers to name just 3. Very often a placebo affect comes into play - human responses are complex and people can be very unwilling to concede that most of these items either make no difference or just change the sound, not necessarily for the better.
If we start to see most orchestral players adopting these devices in their daily work then maybe we have something but I don't see that.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-07-30 18:49
aaaAAAHHH! FREAK OUT!
LefreQue, c'est chic!
FREAK OUT!
It never gets old.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-07-30 20:00
It's an intense topic and......
All that pressure got you down...
Has you're head been spinning all around?...Ha-ha!
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: graham
Date: 2023-07-30 22:18
Cables, DACS, valve amplifiers, spikes for loudspeakers, in the context of hifi are valid differences that usually improve performance meaningfully. The issue with the sound bridge is that there isn’t a convincing explanation whereas the above examples in audio are convincing.
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Author: symphony1010
Date: 2023-07-30 23:35
No they don’t actually! The issues were solved years ago but some audiophiles think that spending crazy sums of money will take things further.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2023-07-31 00:23
I tried them in 2018 and wasn’t too bothered with them. I know some that have used them professionally.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-07-31 03:00
One little nugget of knowledge to tie both LefreQues and Chic being that Bernard Edwards, bassist with Chic and very much admired by other bassists was asked about his sound and more specifically, what bass strings he used. He said he just used the strings that came with Music Man basses.
Sometimes you don't always need all manner of extra fancy, expensive or unnecessary add-ons if things play fine just as they are.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2023-07-31 05:29
I have used Lefreque on my flute for about 10 years. The gold plated model adds a bit of depth to my silver flute. I hear and feel a difference . It’s worth the little bit of extra assembly time each day. This gold plated Lefreque would likely not be much of an addition to a gold headjoint on flute. In addition I use a Bigio titanium stopper and crown. Both Lefreque and Bigio products are not rare in the flute world. I likely could find a very expensive headjoint that doesn’t need these add ons but that would be thousands of dollars
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I have tried Lefreque on clarinet but didn’t find it as useful as on flute.
There are lots of equipment choices when it comes to musical instruments. The cost of a Lefreque is about the same as a ligature. I don’t regret taking a chance with these investments. Now one can try Lefreque at a music store before buying.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2023-07-31 19:26
I have tried them on clarinet. My experience is that they do something to the sound and response. A little bit of something, not much.
For me the bottom joint to the bell gave the most impact: more depth, more resonance, richer sound. But more restrictive too.
Is it worth it? No, the effects are very small and the price is very high.
May be the effect is bigger on saxophone.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2023-08-01 10:40
Jeroen: You can make your own using the aluminium from a beercan and cutting it into shape with a pair of scissors. It takes exactly five minutes to do this and you get a beer into the bargain.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: ruben
Date: 2023-08-01 10:43
Chris P: One premise of theirs that I do agree with is that cork on the tenons has a damping effect on vibrations. It's time we replaced cork with something else. I have an idea, but will keep it under my hat for the moment because I haven't experimented with it enough to discover its drawbacks.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Hunter_100
Date: 2023-08-01 19:00
ruben, some companies are using rubber orings to seal the tenons now instead of cork, and claiming the sound quality is better than cork. I am not sure about that claim, I think they are just doing it because its way cheaper to make o-ring grooves than to install cork properly.
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Author: kilo
Date: 2023-08-01 22:11
ruben, wouldn't any compressible material have a "damping effect on vibrations"? I think you'd need a clarinet made of a one single piece of wood if you were looking to maximize the vibration of the body. But since the musical sound is created by the vibrations of the column of air within the body I don't think damping is a concern with a clarinet. What damping effect do pads and fingertips have? Now, a xylophone would be a another story.
Post Edited (2023-08-02 00:18)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-08-01 23:52
Close fitting metal sleeved tenons and metal sleeved sockets without tenon corks with a sax-style locking screw fitted to the socket ring (like a miniature version of a bass clarinet mid tenon/socket set-up) would be the best bet, even if it has potential for problems due to the mixing of incompatible materials or user error.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-08-02 10:52
Yes!
But this is assuming that the conduction of resonance through body joints is truly an issue. Given that the LefreQue seems to work best on flutes with their substantial metal on metal jointing, suggests to me that the most likely effect from these devices on flutes, is related to adding mass to an instrument relatively low in mass, something that may well result in the material of the instrument becoming frequency/volume overdriven. One of the supposed scientific studies on this device refers to the resonance " jitter" being quelled by the LefreQue. This " jitter" sounds to me like what you get when you overdrive a loud speaker, and I believe it's something that naturally tends to occur driving vibrations of enough intensity through any object.
Picture a wave (water wave) generation tank as the wave power generation goes up and up. The smaller the size of the tank the sooner the rebounding wave frequencies become chaotic.
Just looking for a coherent physics explanation behind this device . That it apparently work significantly on flutes but not so much on other instrument must surely offer some clues.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Hunter_100
Date: 2023-08-02 21:00
Is it possible this device just vibrates and emits sounds that are complementary to the instrument instead of transmitting vibration down the body?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-08-02 21:07
Quite possibly given there are two of them placed on top of each other and that could vibrate or buzz sympathetically with certain frequencies, only that sort of sympathetic vibration is something that's normally avoided - such as the trill or side keys making contact somewhere along their sides and creating a buzz on certain notes or other metal-on-metal contact creating unwanted noise.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-08-03 11:08
I don't know much about the influences of barrels on clarinets , but I understand that their extra width/ mass is a significant element . That's somewhat where my suspicions are going on the matter of LefreQues and flutes.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Luuk ★2017
Date: 2023-08-03 11:57
The patent (https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/1a/c4/ad/5d2da9ba417b34/US8884143.pdf) states that the Lefreque 'bridge' passes 'vibrations' of the instruments body from one part of the body to the following part.
It states that these frequencies are not evenly spread out over the body because the fittings (tenons, soldered joints...) hinder this. This would be a bad thing. (All in my wording).
As I understand from the patent text, the outer part of the two parts of the LeFreque-thing is only used for pressing the inner part against the instrument's body, like a reed binder is used for pressing a reed against a mouthpiece. The inner part does the 'vibration job'.
If this is all true it explains the observation that a metal, thin walled instrument seems to be more influenced by this invention than a thick walled instrument, especially when the latter is made from wood. Relatively thick wood has a much higher frequency impedance and dampening effect than thin metal, thus leaving a less pronounced role for these wall vibrations in the resulting sound.
Looks like a Dutch invention...
Regards,
Luuk
Philips Symphonic Band
The Netherlands
Post Edited (2023-08-03 12:05)
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Author: ruben
Date: 2023-08-03 13:18
Luuk, Yes, it is a Dutch invention, and manufactured in the Netherlands. I have met its inventor, a brilliant saxophonist.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: symphony1010
Date: 2023-08-05 12:00
There are many aspects of these devices which I would question but focussing on just one - the various materials. We are offered all manner of expensive solutions and no doubt we will be told that the different materials and platings will all sound different.
The placebo effect seems to me dominant here and you are obviously going to expect the most expensive option to sound the best after parting with that much money. Objectivity is a lot harder to put in place than many of us realise.
As an example, I have a student who recently brought a Buffet Divine and Legende models to me. She had purchased both! Neither played as well as her existing R13 models, even after careful setup. However they did look amazing and she eventually went with the Legende, convinced that this new, beautiful-looking instrument must be better than the old one. Her R13 came from the period when it was Buffet's top pro instrument but it looked less 'shiny' than the new model!
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-08-05 13:16
The popularity of thes devices with flute player seem to suggest that on these instruments at least, there are notable benefits. Why, is still something I'm not sure of and I find the offered resonance-bridging reasons rather dubious.
Would they offer the same influences if moved slightly to NOT bridge the joints ?
A flute player on YouTube has an additional one on the head of his flute where there is no joint , so if he's right in that it reduces the " windy sound", then the resonance- bridging argument rather starts to go out the window.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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