Author: spikey1973
Date: 2023-07-19 04:16
@ Paul
Quote:
I point out Dale Fedele's results more to point out that "fine" metals don't necessarily make for a "fine" sound (at least if you listen carefully to Dale's results).
end Quote..
Yeah THAT is indeed where I went wrong (tried to say that in my second reply), As said, I wrongly assumed that "old german silver" being a silver alloy used in europe primairly by the germans.. and therefor, I wrongly assumed (again) that higher grade silver alloy would be better.. This now seems to be absolutely wrong.., my bad!
once again clearly showing that making assumption is not a good thing.. still sometimes it remains necessairy to continue.. which is oke for me as long as I stay aware of it and remain critical.
Never the less I am still very much interested in the metal aspect of this as Dale seemed to experience as you correctly point out.
The design is important but seems to be only secondairy to the metals used (precious or not). Since the old german silver Bonade's seems to be so much better then the modern once while the design seems to be more or less the same it seems to point too that the modern alloys deliver worse accoustic results.
This points to me (assumption again) that the metal used and referred to as the old german silver is essential (another assumption) and I would really like to know what alloy exactly was!
Modern copper zinc nickel alloys (now called alpaca /new silver) are still widely available, but do not seemed to be used for ligatures. There is no mentioning of it as far as I looked in to metal ligatures today (limited research), also the (fairly) extended option list of woodstone didn't incorporate it and neither did Dales video.
So the difference between the new silver and the old german silver, both not actually being silver, seems to be important.
Unfortunately I did not find anything on that exact composition of the old german silver except the line I posted above (and here below).
"The genuine German silver, made from the original ore of Hildburghausen in Henneberg, analyzed by Keferstein, was found to consist of copper 40.4 per cent., nickel 31.6, zinc 25.4, iron 2.6"
The old cheap german Eb-clarinet I recently acquired has a matching ligature and cap and although it is definately not the same as a bonade ligature it is still from the same area and time frame and it does seems collaborate my "copper zinc nickel alloy" thought.
Also I tried have a good look at Dale's favorite old german silver Bonade, it seems to have a similar shine to those alloys (less white, more gray and little duller, without clear silver like tarnishing), but this as wild assumption as saying every old black car is a T-ford.. anyway it just didn't excluded it, which is all I can say about it.
As this "The genuine German silver" seems to have not been widely available, so there for one could assume that this could be the alloy referred to.
Anyway.. I contacted a highly respectable metallergic company that is located in the netherlands to see if they can clear this up for me. They will definately have extended knowledge on older alloys, so maybe this too.
Ifso, I would be really interested in trying to recreate this alloy (as long as it doesn't contain lead and or cadmium (my health is slightly more important to me ) and see If I can recreate a "modern, old german silver" bonade ligature.
Which would be really nice if possible.
But this entire post has way to much assumptions so... only time will tell where I went wrong this time. Never the less it seems worth exploring (to me anyways).
@ Lydian..
I might be new in the world of clarinets. but I am VERY familiar with the world of physics and therefor also standing wave conduction.
I might not get everything right on the getgo when it comes to complex behaviors in musical instruments, but I am here to learn too but that doesn't mean complete ignorance on my side either.
The tip of the reed vibrates in your mouth, creating a wave in both the air column as well as through the reed into the MP and clarinet. It is this that will "support" that standing wave in the air column through the entire instrument. The dulling you mention comes because the reed can't transfer it's energy into the MP. This will cause the air column to stop loose it's energy into the wall of the instrument and cease vibrating.. hence the dulling.
This is VERY simply explained, the REAL effects are way more complex though. Never the less it should suffice for now. Metal ligatures are very efficient in tunneling the vibration into the MP, while (when in efficiently designed) at the same time they can constrict the vibration of the MP. This is where things go wrong.
The type of metal IS important as any metal (and shape, and support points) has it's on specific harmonics. Therefor it will interfere with the vibration transfered to the MP in it's own way effecting the timber. Parts will be enhanced, parts will be dulled... something to do with overtones, I think you will have heared of it not? Anyway it is getting late here and I don't want to go into that same argument.. (you know it all and i am stupid argument) AGAIN, So I will stop here.
I just would like to ask one thing, try to be a little more constructive in your replies in general. I would appreciate it and I do believe I won't be the only one here.
Kind greats
Matt
Post Edited (2023-07-19 04:40)
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