 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: FreddyG
Date: 2017-02-08 14:32
I have tried a lot of ligatures through the years. A week playing JLV impresses me a lot. It is significantly better than my Vandoren Optimum, Rovner Versa, Bonade, Ishimori and Silverstein in my opinion. Lots of overtones and full sounding yet very dense and focused in every register, and many more reeds are playable. Exept a good mouthpiece, this is maybe the best equipment upgrade I've ever tried....
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Author: ruben
Date: 2017-02-08 15:54
Freddy: The drawback is that I find you have do fiddle with it quite a bit to adjust it. It tends not to hold the reed on tight enough.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Ed
Date: 2017-02-08 21:22
I can't imagine that it won't slip when making clarinet changes, which has been a deal breaking issue for me with a few ligatures that I have tried.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2017-02-09 01:44
Ed: it'll slip even without making clarinet changes! It slips when making key changes. I got one of the first ones. It may have been improved since then.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: FreddyG
Date: 2017-02-09 04:19
It has some drawbacks and may not suit everybody. I use the same Moennig barrel on my festival A and Bb so slippering when switching between instruments isn't a problem for me, but is a big drawback if you use different barrels. The other drawback is that no cap suits it. According to sound and playability of more reeds I am very impressed. I can't remember any other clarinet equipment I've got has been as big improvement as this.
Ishimori is also very good and don't slips off. Bonade is almost as good if you find a good one, but also slips off quite easily.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2017-02-09 04:39
Quote:
It slips when making key changes.
Wow, that is a reason to not play chromatic music! ;-)
The solution to slipping Bonades is a light sanding of the interior of the ligature. The plating can be somewhat slick.
Post Edited (2020-09-21 04:09)
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2017-02-09 04:58
FreddyG,
Which model JLV do you have? Gold plated, silver plated, or something else?
Phillippe Berrod in the Orchestra de Paris was playing a JLV for some time. Does anyone know if he is still using one?
JLV sells a metal cover for the ligature.
It's interesting that some ligatures don't have American distributors and are rarely seen in America. JLV ligatures (at least the clarinet ones) and HB (Herouard & Benard) seem to fall in this category--easy to try in France, impossible to find in America. ZAC seems to remain in Italy unless Sergio Bossi brings one over. Innoledy in New York stocked the Kuckmeier titanium ligature for a while but now that one has vanished. The composite GF System (long favored by Shirley Brill) doesn't cross the Atlantic much either. I'm sure the list could be extended.
Post Edited (2020-09-30 00:09)
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Author: Nitram
Date: 2020-09-20 03:40
JLV ligature, in my opinion, is far above all others.
Focus, projection, full body, flexibility. I bought the platinum plated one.
You can adjust it so it will not slip, and the cap is very adequate.
Just some patience to adjust to this lig. It is 1000% worthwile
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-09-20 19:17
Two questions:
Can you cinch this ligature really tight, or would that stress the integrity of the ligature?
I see exorbitant prices for this ligature on Ebay ($500-$600 US dollars) yet the JLV website lists the selling price for 159.00 Euros ($188.37 US dollars). Is the company still making this ligature?
................Paul Aviles
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Author: ruben
Date: 2020-09-20 23:03
They're still at it. Overpriced and nothing to write home about.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-09-21 00:21
So ruben,
In addition to the above questions, does the high contact point at the top cause unwanted damping of upper partials?
................Paul Aviles
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Author: Nitram
Date: 2020-09-21 17:30
With the JVL lig you have to make sure that the 2 rubber contact points are in perfect condition. If they are worn out or too thin, the metal will contact mpce it will leave scratches and slip. They can easily be re/ rubbered. Just keep this in mind.Properly adjusted it will NOT slip. You can place the lig in many different positions. It has to be tightened a bit more than in standard ligs,but not in excess and will not kill high partials.It will not slip and the sound is always resonant, no dampening of higher partials, On the contrary. Full body+timbre.Position of lig depends on reeds. Higher position is best for not so vibrant reeds and lower for vibrant ones.This is a general statement. Each player has to experiment.
Re materials I have the platinum plated one, so I have not compared it to lesser priced models.
Just for the record I do not represent JLV at all.
Post Edited (2020-09-21 17:50)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-09-28 01:19
Ok, so I had to bite. This is an interesting little ligature. My curiosity is mostly about the architecture, where the top part of the plate contacts the reed. The two upper contact points are actually on the vamp which seems untenable to my mind but it actually does some unique things. In this video (at 0:52) you can see a reference to possible gaps between reed and mouthpiece along the table BEFORE the facing (point where the reed and mouthpiece intentionally diverge):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOnm6L_7IxQ
I use Legere European Signature reeds and there are a percentage that develop this odd "squeal" when they begin to lose some of their initial strength. I have come to believe that this is related to whether the table is perfectly flat or not (or if there is just some incompatibility between the reed and table whichever one is the greater culprit).
Within my first two days of testing it does indeed seem to circumvent the "squeal" of this small percentage of misbehaving reeds. There is less vibrancy to the sound compared with my preferred "plastic" ligatures, though there seems to be more life to the sound than other metal ligatures.
"Nitram" brought up the point about the marks that can be left on the mouthpiece. I've already experienced that. If you really bear down, you leave these "crescent moon" shaped divots on the left and right top surfaces of the mouthpiece. This doesn't bother me per se, but then moving the ligature slightly can be negatively affected by these notches that get in the way of the bumpers sliding up and down. Also you'd either want to use a different ligature for testing a mouthpiece (so you can return it) or be aware that you need to at least place a few patches of 3M plastic tape at those points to ward off these possible marks on the test mouthpiece.
Now, is the solution to the squeal worth $200.00? Hard to say right now. The response is the only effect this ligature has on Legere. The advertised talke about tone color changes moving it up and down is not something that manifests itself with plastic reeds.
One last oddity is that you can move this ligature quite high and it may even get better response the higher you can go (with Legere). BUT, you begin to feel the top of the plate with the area of your embouchure just below your lower lip........the TRUE upward limit to how high you adjust this ligature (aside from exceeding the facing length of course).
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: Nitram
Date: 2020-09-29 20:12
Hi Paul,
I have not tried this lig with plastic reeds,will do so sometime in the future.
Just 2 more details about this lig :
You can turn it upside down and you will have the top notches of the plate just as in normal ligs, on the top bark part of the reed not the scraped one .The bottom notches, will lie on the bottom part of the bark, as in standard ligs.. I found that in this manner a "new" sonority is available. Of course everything is very subtle and perhaps phsycological...
This will leave the tightening screw for your left hand, but you can easily unmount and invert the plate, and the screw will then be on your right hand side, should you wish to make this change.
Re the 2 bumpers ,they will need from time to time , to be supplemented with extra material. You can easily cut this out of a mpce patch and superglue it to whatever lies below, In this way NO marks or identations will be suffered by mpce. and slipping is avoided. I do not recommend 3M plastic tape on the mpce, this will certainly make the lig slip and a gluey mess will certainly occur(!)
Best
Nitram
Post Edited (2020-09-29 21:18)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-09-29 21:23
Oh, the 3M tape is really only a suggestion for temporary mouthpiece trials. I have used it quite successfully as a cheaper alternative to commercial mouthpiece patches though (double layer). I haven't experienced any goo..........it's quite different from electrical tape.
Funny you mention the "inverted" thing. Mine arrived with the plate tuned around and I just assumed it was tried out by a "lefty." For me the MAIN reason for keeping it (which is still not determined at this time) is the unique ability to address this very Legere centric issue of the "squeal." It was brought up by someone else in a Legere thread. When I first read what he was saying, I thought........that's weird I don't know what he's talking about. Just minutes later I picked up my horn and sure enough I got a familiar annoyance and thought, "Oh, that's what he's talking about!" So it's not just me. I think the flatness (or usually flatness) of the Legere's causes it to be more finicky with regard to any imperfections of the mouthpiece table. But rather than incur further expense (or potentially mucking up your mouthpiece) a ligature that can smooth this out is by far a better option.
Still more time needed to assess the pros and cons.
One more con: You HAVE to use the provided cap. Nothing else works ......and I have them all (mostly use the Vandoren Leather Ligature cap for everything, or the Silverstein rubber cap). This cap is really only a reed guard. It does not envelope the reed/mouthpiece in any way so as to hold in any moisture........for you cane users out there.
.................Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2020-09-30 18:53)
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Author: spikey1973
Date: 2023-07-17 03:39
@Paul,
What is your final verdict over the years of this ligature?
I just bumped in to it and it looks really ,well different so I got intregued.
Kind greats
Matthieu
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-07-17 06:43
Thank you Matthieu for bringing this back up. I had been marching down a long path of many different ligatures in the past year or so. Most recently I had begun playing regularly on Gleichweit German mouthpieces (on Boehm!). Many of the ligatures that were working on my old Hawkins mouthpiece are just too large to work, but the JVL still works......and I didn't realize it.
So it's not a ligature that "clamps down" and you do have to dedicate yourself to swabbing from the barrel (or changing Bb to A clarinets from the barrel). The funny thing is that of late I had not had success with leaving other ligatures looser, however the JVL is working really well. I can't say that is superior to the Rovner Platinum that I have been currently using "clamped down," but it is an equal........and that is saying a lot.
I will be using the JVL more now that I know this and promise to get back to you with a better sense of just how well it's working.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: spikey1973
Date: 2023-07-17 16:11
Hey Paul,
Thank you for your reply..
I am basically just looking around for ligatures, mainly pure out of interest.
But also to find something that works well for me and or
maybe design something nice myself that would be possible for people to make themselves on the cheap.
I have made a few my own, one that ended up being very similar to the vandoren classic (although I didn't even see it when I started to making it).
I like its tonality, but mine is not so easy to use on my MP in daily use, it just doesn't hold the reed in place to well concerning left and rightmovements, sometimes causing leaks.
so I tried a few other things and lately I have been using this what I believe to be chinese knock-off, just haven't found the original yet, still it is functioning nicely.
https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/1005002637632388.html?
It has a resonance plate, being some type of steel, held clamped in by some hardened springy steel that also rests on the reed clamping it down.
I like the brightness of the ligature, but it is also pretty harsh at moments.
So since it's easy for me to replace the resonane plate with a silver resonance plate that I would also make better formed into the curve of the reeds.
Hoping it to become a little less harsh, but still have the brightness.
But this JLV seems to be something really different and seems to be generally well designed (with accoustics in mind), specifically the 2nd model.
Unfortunately the studs with rubber caps don't look to functional/stable, but those I can easily modify myself to make it into something more stable but hopefully without (to much) inpact on the tonality.
So yeah I would be really interested in your experiences!
Kind greats
Matthieu
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-07-17 18:58
The "knock off" that you have is an Eddie Daniels (Rovner Versa) copy. You can use that in MANY different configurations: plate in; plate out; flaps OVER the insert; flaps under the insert; one flap over, one flap under; and finally, the reverse. I've generally used that ligature without the plate and with the flaps under the insert for best cane results. More recently on the Legeres I've grown to appreciate the sound and grip of the flaps OVER the insert WITH the thickest insert (it actually comes with two or three thicknesses of inserts.....more variations!).
So the JVL is just odd. The whole thing that holds everything is basically one big circle. That's where the instability is, it rocks back and forth sometimes thrusting your reed forward as you are setting it up. Due to that and the fact that there is virtually no other reed protection other than the designed "cap" that comes with it that you can use, I can't find myself recommending it to others. And yet it does function well once you have a reed on.
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: spikey1973
Date: 2023-07-18 03:30
Hey Paul,
Thanks again so much for your extended explanation, much appreciated.
I didn't even get the flaps idea yet, Just thought it was because of poor fabrication that they were loose. But that is what you get when buying this stuff.. besides less quality product, also less explanation.
Honoustly though, I really didn't know it was a rovner versa copy.
I just liked the design and its possibilities.
Anyway I will definately give those flaps a go, just as well as using it without the plate.
About the jlv:
I read about (but also figured) the rather obvious instability.
Which is a shame as placing the reed fairly easily is something that is, at least to me, rather important. I have discarded my own builds because of that.
To change that i am thinking about, intead of having just one stud resting against the MP, I could make a similar stud, but with a T-bar form. with the top of the T resting against the MP only at both end in a similar way, if you add somthing to keep the bars perfectly parallel, without touching any other part of the MP. you would create less wobble without much interference in the acoustics of the ligature (IMHO).
The designed cap is nice on it's own, but nothing special just a bend over flat plate, and also rather expensive for what it is, specifically in comparison to the ligature it self which has a fairly oke pricing (again IMHO ofcourse)
So I understand your not recommending it point of view,anyway..I am planning to go window shopping in a local woodwind shop I only resently found to be existing close to me. The sell it.. so I will see if I can try it out, and if not. at least have a good look at it instead of all those blender drawings.
Kind greats.
Matt
Post Edited (2023-07-18 03:34)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-07-18 03:58
Nothing beats a trial of the ligature itself. There were a number of ligatures that looked great in photos but left a lot to be desired. Also, the important part is how it allows (or doesn't) the reed to vibrate.
Woodwind and Brasswind made a necessary decision to disallow returns on ligatures. I can see where the "trials" could get out of hand with all the ligatures and all the business that they do.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: spikey1973
Date: 2023-07-18 04:16
@Paul:
Quote:
Also, the important part is how it allows (or doesn't) the reed to vibrate.
Exactly.. and you need to hear that, playing yourself too, with your instrument to make the proper differentiations.
And it doesn't even need to look good at all,
It just needs to function well, and to many ligatures just "trap" either the reeds vibrations or the vibrations of the MP's wall..
And the JLV just seems to minimize that, maybe even a bit to much, hence the rocking chair simulations
In the meantime I have been trying out the flaps and taking out the plate..
for now.. I prefer without the plate. The (knockof's leather) flaps dull it in not so nice way. but there is definately a silver plate going in there.
IMHO silver is the preferred metal for conducting accoustic vibrations and/or electronic accoustic conduction.
Anyway if interested I will let you know my findings..
Kind greats
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Author: lydian
Date: 2023-07-18 06:25
My embouchure controls the reed vibration or lack there of. I don’t want or need any “help” from a bad ligature incapable of holding the reed tightly against the mouthpiece, the one job a ligature is supposed to do. There are plenty of bad ligatures cheaper than this one. Just use a rubber band or a shoelace.
I’ll never understand why people waste money on this crap instead of practicing. Actually I do understand. Clicking “buy” is much quicker and easier than practicing.
Post Edited (2023-07-18 08:10)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-07-18 13:48
lydian,
I wonder if you can share what mouthpiece/reed combination you are using?
Most recently I have experienced more of your contention about a tight bond for the ligature on my German mouthpieces (Gleichweit) and Legere Classic German reeds. Prior to this on all other conventional French mouthpieces and reeds (plastic and cane) my experience was that the loosest one could possibly set the ligature, the more resonant the outcome was.
Just curious..........we may be on to something.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: spikey1973
Date: 2023-07-18 13:49
Hey Lydian,
I find it interesting how one can be so right and (imho) so wrong at the same time.
I agree of course, practising / time on the instrument is the most important thing period! There should never be any discussion about that! (And I really don't think there is)
And yeah I fully admitt I should practice way way way way more then I do. So yeah you are right again period.
But (here is the expected but) the thing is...
The way and the place where a reed is mounted to the MP by any straight up ligature is inherently the worst possible thing to do for creating a nice sound.
It blocks a lot of the vibrations that travel through the instrument (MP) instead of the air column before it can be transferred to the air column, right at the point where they start and since the quality of the sound is basically depending on getting ALL the produced vibrations out, this is a bad thing. Something that will not be able to be over come (maybe slightly compensated, but not overcome) by any amount of practising.
Hence, and I think anyone would agree.. sorry if not.
We would just hold it in place if we had three thumbs.
But we don't. Never the less that would be nearly ideal.
Another nearly ideal possibility would be to make a contraption to mount it at the MP but where the force would be rested against, a location near the bell for example. somewhere near the end of the instrument. But really I don't think I should even need to start to explain to a toddler why that for other obvious reasons would be a really really REALLY bad idea.
So this inherent problem gives the start of the probably an eternal design contest.
How to design the ideal ligature.
And here I agree again with you again, the more basic the better it usually is. So indeed rubber band / shoe laces work just fine, but they can be improved upon.. and so the race continues and yeah. Then there comes the other issue. People just like to spend money on things that make them look fancy. Big houses big cars, expensive instruments, so of course also expensive ligatures.
This does open up an other question in my mind. Just something that I have been wondering about.
Most expensive ligatures are made from brass and or steel with a nice plating on to. But if people like to spend so much money on their ligatures.. Why aren't they made from precious metal alloys. these would also make a tremendous difference in timber of the sound and as I already discussed (some) people tend to be willing to pay for it, then why isn't this happening? But this is a question for another thread though.
Anyway, all I am trying to say is that the eternal search for the impossibly perfect ligature rests both in logic and ill-logics at the same time.
So for now I like my cheap chinese knock-off and it is very unlikely that I will spend large amounts of money on any ligature at all! But this doesn't exclude, that I will still be interested in hearing differences in sound and trying things out and thinking how I could design that ultimate ligature myself. Especially if the ligature itself makes placing the reed in perfect position and hold it there too an easy thing! Anyway l, Believe I just admitted to be human, so sew me for that if you need to but I am going window shopping today and look at that jlv ligature.
To be continued / or for the fans.
I'll be back
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-07-18 16:36
I HAVE spent large amounts of money on ligatures and find that for the most part it is not necessary. However, I do like to tinker and don’t really regret the collection. If you haven’t already seen it, you should check out a YouTube video by Dale Fedele called “Testing a Metric Ton of Ligatures.” He is on to something with the OLD German silver ligatures.
As for other materials, I found that vibration friendly ones work better. The plastic ligatures by Luyben are great, practical and cheap. From there I’d recommend carbon fiber……not cheap.
………….Paul Aviles
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Author: spikey1973
Date: 2023-07-18 20:30
Attachment: Lig_feeling_View.jpg (23k)
Hey to (P)a(u)l(l)
Today I went the store I intended too, they were nice just gave me a bunch of ligatures to try out in a private setting..
Anyway.. they didn't have the Soprano Clarinet jlv ligature at hand as they stopping the sales. So they gave me the saxophone (alto?) version.. which "fitted" around the MP, but the reedclamp wasvjust to large. Ofcourse this has a big influence on the reeds vibration ergo the sound. So I wasn't at all impressed
He tried to talk me into a Yanagisawa Yany-Sixs Ligature, which I must say.. sounded and responded really good, but the price was also a bit TOO good (for there wallet, not mine though).
Anyway.. I didn't watch the video you pointed out to me yet, but I did now.
After this. I am wondering..
What does a D.Bonade ligature make a Bonade ligature? As I look around it is ligature that is made by many factories, except for a factory called D.Bonade? Is there a bit of history that I am missing here?
(possible answers to these questions are discussed by me in my next post in this thread).
And again the same question, with the silver prices as low as they are, why aren't more factory making sterling silver (or even forged fine silver) ligatures.. ?
on the wood-stone website I did find that they basically make every ishimori setup possible and also give a small graph to indicate the effects of each combo.
but silver doesn't come out really great.. which is different to Dale's experience.
So this rises the question... How much can one interpolate that to a D.Bonade design.
Making a Bonade (like) ligature in silver is definately not a real big task for me.. but still.. would it be worth it, or is there more to it then just the material.
As far as remember, Dale didn't try out any modern silver Bonades. Only old and modern brass bonade's, and those definately have a different alloy, (sterling) silver doesn't, well it shouldn't.
anyway.. I am going to look at the video again (and again probably)
Kind greats
Matt
PS:any oneany expererience with the Kodama (II) ligatures?
Post Edited (2023-07-18 21:55)
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Author: spikey1973
Date: 2023-07-18 21:39
Oke...
I am ashamed, very ashamed (I should've known this, well I knew it, just forgot it) But the Old german silver what Dale was talking about was most likely not actual silver..
it is something close to what we call Alpaca nowadays (except that it also had a percentage iron in there). Which, in case this assumption is correct does explain the the reasons why sterling silver ligatures are more resistant and slighlty dull (according to the chart in my previous post).
This would clarify a lot of the questions I had about that..
Next question (to myself) how to add this percentage iron in modern alpaca alloys.. Hmmm.
Kind greats
Matthieu
PS:
The genuine German silver, made from the original ore of Hildburghausen in Henneberg, analyzed by Keferstein, was found to consist of copper 40.4 per cent., nickel 31.6, zinc 25.4, iron 2.6.
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_American_Cyclop%C3%A6dia_(1879)/German_Silver
But I am straying way to far of the original topic of this thread. My apologies.
Post Edited (2023-07-18 21:53)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-07-19 01:25
I point out Dale Fedele's results more to point out that "fine" metals don't necessarily make for a "fine" sound (at least if you listen carefully to Dale's results). If you search for old German silver ligatures made for Bonade, you'll find them to be VERY VERY expensive indeed, if you can find them at all.
As for the Kodama, I find my results to be very similar to that of the Silverstein A-Frame model. For cane I got a particularly robust sound with a quick response. I've always said that the Silversteins give you the ultimate (current) metal ligature sound. The Kodama is a close second (in sound of course since it is a wood and leather ligature).
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: lydian
Date: 2023-07-19 02:01
@spikey1973,
It's amazing how quickly you've become an expert in just a few weeks. Lots of beginners on the internet seem to become instant experts. Sadly, you don't have the faintest idea what you're talking about.
The part of the reed that vibrates is in your mouth. The part that doesn't is on the table. If you allow the butt to vibrate, that just saps energy from the tip resulting in dampening. In order for the most efficient tip vibration to occur, the butt cannot move. This means no rubber, springs or stretchy fabric unless you're purposely trying to dull your sound. A steel clamp would be ideal but inconvenient.
The type of metal in a ligature also has zero effect on the sound. So your silver theory is nonsense. But that's a whole other discussion.
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Author: spikey1973
Date: 2023-07-19 04:16
@ Paul
Quote:
I point out Dale Fedele's results more to point out that "fine" metals don't necessarily make for a "fine" sound (at least if you listen carefully to Dale's results).
end Quote..
Yeah THAT is indeed where I went wrong (tried to say that in my second reply), As said, I wrongly assumed that "old german silver" being a silver alloy used in europe primairly by the germans.. and therefor, I wrongly assumed (again) that higher grade silver alloy would be better.. This now seems to be absolutely wrong.., my bad!
once again clearly showing that making assumption is not a good thing.. still sometimes it remains necessairy to continue.. which is oke for me as long as I stay aware of it and remain critical.
Never the less I am still very much interested in the metal aspect of this as Dale seemed to experience as you correctly point out.
The design is important but seems to be only secondairy to the metals used (precious or not). Since the old german silver Bonade's seems to be so much better then the modern once while the design seems to be more or less the same it seems to point too that the modern alloys deliver worse accoustic results.
This points to me (assumption again) that the metal used and referred to as the old german silver is essential (another assumption) and I would really like to know what alloy exactly was!
Modern copper zinc nickel alloys (now called alpaca /new silver) are still widely available, but do not seemed to be used for ligatures. There is no mentioning of it as far as I looked in to metal ligatures today (limited research), also the (fairly) extended option list of woodstone didn't incorporate it and neither did Dales video.
So the difference between the new silver and the old german silver, both not actually being silver, seems to be important.
Unfortunately I did not find anything on that exact composition of the old german silver except the line I posted above (and here below).
"The genuine German silver, made from the original ore of Hildburghausen in Henneberg, analyzed by Keferstein, was found to consist of copper 40.4 per cent., nickel 31.6, zinc 25.4, iron 2.6"
The old cheap german Eb-clarinet I recently acquired has a matching ligature and cap and although it is definately not the same as a bonade ligature it is still from the same area and time frame and it does seems collaborate my "copper zinc nickel alloy" thought.
Also I tried have a good look at Dale's favorite old german silver Bonade, it seems to have a similar shine to those alloys (less white, more gray and little duller, without clear silver like tarnishing), but this as wild assumption as saying every old black car is a T-ford.. anyway it just didn't excluded it, which is all I can say about it.
As this "The genuine German silver" seems to have not been widely available, so there for one could assume that this could be the alloy referred to.
Anyway.. I contacted a highly respectable metallergic company that is located in the netherlands to see if they can clear this up for me. They will definately have extended knowledge on older alloys, so maybe this too.
Ifso, I would be really interested in trying to recreate this alloy (as long as it doesn't contain lead and or cadmium (my health is slightly more important to me) and see If I can recreate a "modern, old german silver" bonade ligature.
Which would be really nice if possible.
But this entire post has way to much assumptions so... only time will tell where I went wrong this time. Never the less it seems worth exploring (to me anyways).
@ Lydian..
I might be new in the world of clarinets. but I am VERY familiar with the world of physics and therefor also standing wave conduction.
I might not get everything right on the getgo when it comes to complex behaviors in musical instruments, but I am here to learn too but that doesn't mean complete ignorance on my side either.
The tip of the reed vibrates in your mouth, creating a wave in both the air column as well as through the reed into the MP and clarinet. It is this that will "support" that standing wave in the air column through the entire instrument. The dulling you mention comes because the reed can't transfer it's energy into the MP. This will cause the air column to stop loose it's energy into the wall of the instrument and cease vibrating.. hence the dulling.
This is VERY simply explained, the REAL effects are way more complex though. Never the less it should suffice for now. Metal ligatures are very efficient in tunneling the vibration into the MP, while (when in efficiently designed) at the same time they can constrict the vibration of the MP. This is where things go wrong.
The type of metal IS important as any metal (and shape, and support points) has it's on specific harmonics. Therefor it will interfere with the vibration transfered to the MP in it's own way effecting the timber. Parts will be enhanced, parts will be dulled... something to do with overtones, I think you will have heared of it not? Anyway it is getting late here and I don't want to go into that same argument.. (you know it all and i am stupid argument) AGAIN, So I will stop here.
I just would like to ask one thing, try to be a little more constructive in your replies in general. I would appreciate it and I do believe I won't be the only one here.
Kind greats
Matt
Post Edited (2023-07-19 04:40)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-07-19 04:37
Well, I think there may be some reason why lydian is getting markedly different results. I'd still love to hear what mouthpiece and reed you use to see if there is any correlation to my more recent results.
Also, the experiment that may help lydian is free, and available to EVERYONE. Just loosen your ligature to a point where the screws are barely "catching." Just play that for a few minutes and compare to your more preferred method of cranking down the ligature. If that is not the least bit helpful, obviously different, louder, then don't do it. I merely ask that you try for just a few minutes out of a day's worth of practice. You don't even have to admit if that does help........just enjoy.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: lydian
Date: 2023-07-19 05:27
Spikey,
I’m surprised you’re getting the physics so wrong here. The vibrations of the mouthpiece are inaudible. They do not contribute to the sound in the least. The reflections from the inside surface do, just a as the walls and windows in a room do. A woodwind is not like a string instrument where the body has a huge effect. It’s vibrating air column itself, not the vibrating instrument.
By your theory a mouthpiece patch, your top teeth, your top lip, your skull, the cork on the mouthpiece, your hands, all impact the sound. They certainly dampen and conduct the vibrations of the instrument. But they have zero effect on the sound. I rely on the vibrations through my teeth and skull to close the feedback loop to control my tone with my embouchure, bottom lip, mouth cavity, tongue, throat, air pressure/direction/velocity. How much do you think simply holding the instrument in your hands dampens the vibrations? It’s a lot. But it doesn’t matter because the vibrations of the instrument itself are completely inaudible. This is the part you’re missing.
Paul,
I’ve played all sorts of woodwinds for decades using dozens and dozens of ligatures and mouthpieces, hundreds of reeds. I have ligatures of all shapes and sizes, different designs, different materials, whatever fits my application. Every single time I get the ligature force exactly right for the response I want. Never has that force been low enough to allow the butt to move. If it does, my tone is dull, blowing is resistant, certain pitches are unstable. A loose ligature never has a positive effect on my tone. A ligature that’s too tight can be just as bad, applying uneven forces and creating leaks. The sweet spot is firm enough to make the butt one with the mouthpiece.
Post Edited (2023-07-19 05:30)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-07-19 06:12
I agreed with you up until about 2006. One of my saxophone playing colleagues was doing a solo piece in front of the band and at one point as he took the mouthpiece out of his mouth it brushing his lip and the reed spun nearly a complete 45 degrees! He just moved it back and finished his piece. Because he has one of the biggest and loveliest saxophone sounds I’ve heard, I was interested in finding out how what I saw was possible. He later explained that his formative teacher had him secure the ligature as loose as possible for the best sound. Quite frankly he really does have a wonderful sound. And for the record he also plays a mean bassoon too.
Even with ALL that, it took another ten years before I gave it a whirl. I regret being so recalcitrant but never regretted finally giving in.
………Paul Aviles
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Author: spikey1973
Date: 2023-07-19 13:42
@Lydian
OF COURSE it's in audible! Never said it was. A light piece of reed will never be able to transfer enough energy into a a relatively massive tube like structure as an MP and bring it to an audible amplitude. But just because you don't hear it. That doesn't mean it isn't there. And neither doesn't it mean it isn't essential to the sound.
And of course when you hold the instrument with a light touch with soft fingers it will never be able to stop the vibration in a tube like structure like this instrument. But try to clamp it down in a metal clamp that excerpt a force down on the entire circumference (just like to harsh clamped down ligature) that will deaden for sure.
And of course our physiology has an impact on the sound.. although minor. Unfortunately there are to many parameters to deal with to make it a real life test.. but I'd bet that If you'd give your instrument to a prepubescent child that has (in theory) the same capability as you do. You would still hear the difference. And not just by how they play as every musician plays different.
Also if you would be right you could make an instrument out of any material and the sound would be the same. Well we all know it doesn't. There are metal clarinets around and they do have a completely different sound signature.
But the other part of the conversation
The metallurgists let me know that unfortunately they to are aware of the material "old German silver" but do not know the correct alloy. Which is rather sadd and astonishing to me but again explains a lot.
But of course they are indifferent to finding out what it was..But hey.. I won't give up that easily. The search continues.
Matt
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Author: lydian
Date: 2023-07-19 19:51
"just because you don't hear it, that doesn't mean it isn't there". Great observation. As I said, feeling the vibrations is a huge part of how a musician connects with the instrument. It's the reason I don't use a mouthpiece patch. But those vibrations do not exist at the listener's ears. Doesn't matter if you hold it with mittens or a vice. The sound is coming out the end is identical.
The tip of the reed vibrates to create the sound, not the butt. The butt must be stationary, or the tip can't vibrate efficiently. When all that energy goes into inaudible butt vibrations (cue fart jokes), there's less energy for the audible tip vibrations.
Imagine a diving board. The business end is free to vibrate. The other end is anchored firmly to the ground. What happens if you loosen the support? It doesn't spring back with all the energy put into it. It just flops up and down a couple of times and stops. Now tighten them back up. The springiness returns, and all that potential energy becomes kinetic and launches the diver upward.
You're also wrong about metal clarinets. Adolphe Sax knew 200 years ago that material makes no difference. As counterintuitive as it might seem, that's the fact with woodwinds. Check out the concrete flute experiment. As long as you use a rigid material, it's the geometry that determines the sound.
https://www.theclarinet.net/History/metal-clarinet-test.html
Let me know how you did.
In any case, I can see I'm not going to convince you. So feel free to use a wet noodle for a ligature and let the reed roam free and float in mid air. Whatever floats your boat. I'll continue using ligatures that actually work. Since I keep getting gigs, I must be doing something right.
Post Edited (2023-07-19 21:51)
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Author: spikey1973
Date: 2023-07-19 21:35
Hmm I will find that a very interesting test to do.
Unfortunately i am at work at the moment.. where it impossible to listen to this, but i will let you know asap.
Kind greats
Matthieu
PS: I prefer to eat my noedels
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Author: spikey1973
Date: 2023-07-21 23:17
@ Lydian,
I am sorry, but I must say that I picked out the two wood once without error.
Also, I noticed the difference between the silver and brass plated, although I wouldn't have been able to tell what it was I heared, but I heard a difference, ofcourse I can also not say that that is the difference I heared. but I believe so.
and that made me doubt a little, but listening to the first 2 secs of each rose 1 gave me the answer.
If I would have been wrong I would've said it too ofcourse!
Kind greats
Matt
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-07-22 01:08
Hi Lydian,
I wondered if I could add in a quick question in case you have thoughts on it?
If Matt is a really top notch silversmith (which he is), is there any construction project that he could take on that would be of more use to the community than thinking about ligatures?
I've been helped enormously by having some keys extended so I can reach them.
Maybe Matt could be helpful by thinking about how to help other players that way, or by thinking about how to make alternative designs for a left-hand Eb pinkie lever, or other key modifications?
I understand how he has got into thinking about ligatures, because I did that too at the beginning, but I wonder if there is some other avenue that he could be diverted into, that would allow his silversmithing to be of great value to the community?
Thanks,
Jennifer
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Author: symphony1010
Date: 2023-07-22 12:59
What do we notice?
No need for fancy ligatures, weird barrels or expensive mouthpieces or reeds that may be here today and gone tomorrow?
A decent clarinet, well set up, standard accessories - job done. If you can play better than Nicolas Baldeyrou by dabbling with all manner of rare and often impractical solutions then good luck! https://youtu.be/srxvqnPyDyU
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Author: lydian
Date: 2023-07-25 02:42
@spikey,
Of course you did. The beginning clarinetist and all round expert at everything has golden ears as well. Why am I not surprised.
I wish you all the best in your mystical materials endeavors. Hopefully someone will buy you a Klangbogen for your birthday and you'll never have to practice again.
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Author: lmliberson
Date: 2023-07-25 16:00
This is directed to symphony1010:
C’mon now - if it wasn’t for fancy ligatures, what would people discuss here?
It would become a ghost town and cease to exist! 😂
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