 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-07-15 14:43
If you live in Europe and want a bass like the Kessler or Ridenour, the first thing that you discover is that they are not available here . To make matters worse, we don't seem to have much tradition of offering independent reviews of what we do have available. Gear4music's idea of a review, seems to be a rotating video shot of an instrument under spotlights .... Something which is very persuasive in reenforcing the idea that it's a 3D object, but even if the review were more than that, it would still be hogwash propaganda .
So short of actually getting ones hands on one the these European options to try it, what does one have to go by on the decision. Well to begin with, a lot of the instruments offered out there are from the Sunwin Fabian Chinese manufacturers, the same as the Kessler and Ridenour . Leslie Cravens " Craven Sonoro BC 01 and BC 02" definitely are, in fact the BC 02 is the Ridenour in all but printed logo. Gear4music's Odessey and Rosedale are almost certainly also from the same manufacturers and are moderately priced , although they are ABS rather than hard rubber and both these models ( Seemingly identical ?) are without a low D mechanism with curving arms to press closed the cups in the chain, which assumes ( I wouldn't !) that the five large toneholes in question will close properly through revers power transmission up through the linkage .
Then there is the Thomann BCL-C offer, both in Blackwood and composite . Again I strongly suspect these are another Sunwin Fabian product . These horns appear to have everything one could desire in keywork design . An extra RH low D pinky option with the LH option linking across normally,( rather than the Ridenour's strange contraption). The long rods are all nicely capped . There are rollers on the basset thumb keys for what that's worth. The neck has a reenforcing crest . There is even a vent in the bell . Looking closely there is quite extensive use of little Philips screws for mounting, which are somewhat poorly countersink and/or with chewed up slots. One of the rod capping straps in the stock images also appears severely mauled . Aside from these details mounted by Xiang Xiang the Panda,these bass' look promising and if they are indeed SF manufacturered products then they look like the flagships.
I think the real question with the Chinese SF manufacturers, is not wether they can make a decent instrument, so much as why they offer a range of keywork designs with precious little manufacturing costs between them, some of which are clearly mechanically superior to others . I can only imagine that it's part of a smoke screen that sellers want to suggest the distinction of their product . A distinction that aside from these keywork differences probably doesn't significantly exist . Apart from the Thomann offer which appears to only sport the rather distinctive Sunwin Fabian style peg screw, other telltale features of this manufacturer are .....basset keys, thumb rest and strap ring , the locking plate and also the neck. I might be wrong that these features are exclusive to SF...but I doubt it.
If I'm right about this, than at least one has an indicator towards the low C s from these a reasonably reputable Chinese manufacturer.
These are largely speculative observations however, aimed at hopefully casting a little light on the European budget low C bass buying dilemma.
I'm sure that more detailed and firsthand experience-based contributions on this subject would provide valuable and appreciable guidance to us prospective buyers this side of the pond .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: JTJC
Date: 2023-07-15 15:39
Leslie Craven in the UK (which I still consider is in Europe) offers both the Ridenour bass and one in his own Sonoro range.
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-07-15 18:41
Hi JTJC ,
Les is discontinuing his Sonoro BC02 which is the Ridenour under his brand name ( I believe I may have bought the last one he had ). His remaining BC01model is an early model of Sunwin Fabian's . Les told me he's going with that one because people want rollers on the thumb keys.
I'm not convinced it's the better of the two however.(Ho-hum!)
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-07-16 11:13
Prove me wrong that that all the Chinese low C basses on offer from the £1500 Gear4music Rosedale one to others costing £3000+ aren't all one and the same thing regardless of the name laser etched onto them.
I'll wait.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-07-16 14:49
I'm guessing that JDbassplayer has the best inside knowledge on that question,
Chris, and I'm strongly inclined to concur with you as the evidence seems to stand at the moment .All these bass' are likely to have the same sound performance and build quality although some probably have more significant mechanical shortcomings than others. This is a bit crazy given that if as a manufacturer, you've developed good mechanical keywork designs......then why continue with the designs with shortcomings. These keywork differences do not justify the marketing price differences aside from that fact that one accepts paying more for something that actually works.
Like I said.... These differing keyworks must be the manufacturer's response to market demands . Thomann want something that looks distinctive, and knowing what they're doing, commission a nice bit of keywork design . Gear4music are clueless and just want something cheap and likewise distinctive to their label . The only difference between their Rosedale and Odessey appears to be an extra rod guide and a joint locking plata which you get for only an extra 700€ ....but still no conventional low D closing mechanism.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: ruben
Date: 2023-07-16 16:48
I would go for an old used Leblanc, one of the best bass clarinets ever made. There are a few out there still.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-07-16 20:35
I know someone with an Odyssey bass and its the same as the Gear4Music/Rosedale one in every way except that joint alignment plate and the shape and orientation of the LH F/C and low D touchpieces which point straight up on Odyssey and are the standard golf club-shaped touches on the G4M/Rosedale as copied from the Yamaha YCL-622 bass.
This bass was bought new and never set up by anyone, so it's not a particularly nice instrument to play because of the spring tensions being variable (mostly too heavy), the ventings being poor in places and the factory finish with cork used pretty much everywhere makes the action feel spongy and sluggish. It just needs a good service and proper set up which will make it a much more comfortable instrument to play.
At least the Selmer-style basses with that dreadful LH low D linkage have been discontinued.
As for the pricing of other Odyssey instruments, they're way overpriced for what they are when other identical Chinese instruments (eg. oboes) can be bought for about a third of the price.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Hurstfarm
Date: 2023-07-16 23:21
Possibly a notch above your “budget” definition, but Mark O’Brien at Reed and Squeak in the UK is offering the new Royal Global Max for £4,550, so less than half the price of a new Buffet Prestige. I haven’t seen one to judge the quality, but the Royal Global Firebird is a very serious professional level contender, so the omens are good.
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-07-16 23:25
Sounds like the Rosedale is much the better buy then!
I just wonder how well the low D mechanism closes the chain without the distribution arms.
I see that John Packer UK are offering the " Ridenour"/ Selmer-style keywork bass....but with resin body. ( The JP 222).
The LH low D lever mechanism is indeed rubbish on this keywork designe and the thumb option is very spongy unless the rod guide is capped.
These Chinese bass' come needing so much setup work that you might as well just have them delivered directly to your tech's address. ( a lovely surprise..Ha-ha!)
If you buy from Thomann, then they probably do less of a bad job!
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-07-16 23:46
Hi Hustsfarm,
Indeed the Global Max is the way to go I think, for all who can stretch to it .
I suspect it offers fantastic quality for its price.
Thank you again for directing me to Les Craven for the resulting purchase of his BC02." Ridenour". That worked out great as he sold me one he'd used a few times for only 1,500£. We still exchange chatty emails about life, Spain and food ( he has a daughter living in Valencia).
My wife is very happy with the bass and it was a big upgrade over her old Selmer/Bundy Eb.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-07-17 01:08
With any Chinese instrument bought brand new with the intention of having it as a regular and reliable player, you'll inevitably have to justify and factor in the cost of a full service and maybe some other keywork modifications done to it to make it into the reliable player you want.
The long rods on these Chinese basses are hollow, having a centre hole running all the way through them of around 0.9mm or thereabouts, so you'll soon find if you're grinding a recess in them for whatever reason (for clearance with a pillar or a flat for an adjusting screw tip), you'll soon find out if you cut deeply enough, you'll hit the hollow centre.
I only discovered this when I was filling the ends of the long rods with oil that the oil disappeared deep into what I thought was the countersink, but turned out it was a hollow running the entire length of them all. I suspect they're either formed from nickel silver sheet or extruded and formed into a much larger hollow nickel silver tube, then drawn down to the final outer diameter (I think they're 3.8mm to 4mm).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: KenJarczyk
Date: 2023-07-17 09:05
I do enjoy my Ridenour Clarinets. My collection includes the Low C Ridenour Bass Clarinet. It plays wonderfully. I regularly play the bass chair in several area orchestras, and the Ridenour really holds its own.
For “outside” the United States, they ask to call first -
If you're calling outside the US please call 469-394-3245
Then their instructions say:
COST OF SHIPPING OUTSIDE THE CONTIGUOUS US
Please email us, sales@ridenourclarinetproducts.com , regarding the items you are interested and we will provide you with a shipping quote.
I hope this helps. Ridenour clarinets deserve wider distribution.
Ken Jarczyk
Woodwinds Specialist
Eb, C, Bb, A & Bass Clarinets
Soprano, Alto, Tenor & Baritone Saxophones
Flute, Alto Flute, Piccolo
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-07-17 09:59
Hi Chris,
I was under the impression that the rods are steel !
KenJarczyk,
Thanks for that info.
Aside from the Ridenour keywork bass which Les Craven has dropped in favor of another keywork model, he sells the entire Ridenour line under his own " Craven Sonoro" label now and buying from him will no doubt cost substantially less than from Ridenour in the US for those in Europe . Those outside the Uk will now have to pay import duty however.
Les is a sincere believer in the Ridenour line on the basis of their performance characteristics and he played them exclusively during his final years as principal clarinet for the Welsh National Opera.
Les is also a very responsive and amiable chap to do business with.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2023-07-18 08:33
>> I was under the impression that the rods are steel ! <<
What gives that impression? Are they magnetic? If not it could still be a non-magnetic stainless, but what makes it seem that way?
The Chinese bass clarinets I've seen didn't have steel hinge rods but the last one was a few years ago.
A local player just ordered a low C bass directly from China, they'll bring it for me to check when it arrives.
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-07-18 10:10
Hi clarnibass,
That rods are steel is something I read somewhere on the metals used in constructing keywork, and given their function it seemed to make sense to me so I never questioned it . " German silver" is generally around 50% nickel but having raised this question I'll try to resolve it using a magnet ( if I can find one suitable in my workshop ).
I have no problem being wrong about these things .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-07-18 20:07
Well !...my rods are NOT ferromagnetic.. so you guys are right .
I can't remember were I read that bit of misinformation.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-07-19 13:43
Jose Sales (" Sales" being a surname) in Valencia, claimes to be the EU. distributor of Royal Global and is offering the MAX at 5,200€ ( about 1,000€ more than US and UK prices ? !!! ) He was quick to answer the phone and give me an extensive "Sales" sales-pitch on the instrument. He also has shops in Portugal and Greece and says he's happy to ship to all EU countries. He has a page on Facebook under " Royal Global Espana".
Tel (34) 635 31 23 96
Email josesales@royalglobal.us
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2023-07-19 16:17
I assume the price in Spain includes VAT? That comes out to around 250€ more than the USA price (VAT is 21%). That's not a huge difference and less than a lot of things when comparing US/UK/Europe/Asia/etc. The UK price seems to be the equivalent of €6300 including VAT.
Re the hinge rods, not being magnetic doesn't 100% rule out that they are a non-magnetic type of stainless, but that's extremely unlikely.
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-07-19 19:24
Hi Clarnibass,
Well I'm please that Jose's prices are not excessive and yes they do include 21% Iva.tax,so that would be 1'100€ LESS than the UK price you offered !
Are you sure that's the right price for the MAX in the UK ?
I can't seem to get any accurate UK prices on the Internet .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-07-25 18:40
That's mental considering some of the usual Chinese ebonite low C basses based on the YCL-622 bass are on for sale by some companies for near on the same price as the Royal Global Max bass which has the Buffet Prestige-style keywork.
One thing I don't care much for is the ringless socket at the top of the top joint on any instrument - wood or composite.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2023-07-25 18:45)
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2023-07-25 19:59
The Royal Max is nothing like other Chinese bass clarinets. You can tell just by picking one up, it is far more solid and sturdy than any other Chinese bass clarinet I've ever seen. In fact the stock neck on the Max is actually heavier than a Buffet ICON neck! Some of the smaller keys like the throat G# have a through hole but the long rods are solid. The ringless socket also concerned me at first but the socket wall is quite thick so I have no worries about it.
I was also skeptical at first, but I encourage everyone to reserve judgement until you are able to try one (ideally one set up by a tech). They really are worth every penny and I actually ended up selling my Buffet Prestige because I like the Max more. I would even go as far to say that it is a better player than the 1193G.
-JDbassplayer
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Author: Djudy
Date: 2023-07-30 12:18
Any experiences with the Jupiter 1000 made in Taiwan? If my experience with other products is valid,just the factory location is enough to vouch for a big difference in quality. My luthier (I'm in France) says they are the best option for starting bass clarinet and thinks they compare well with Yamaha which is more expensive. So, anybody ?
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-07-30 14:15
Hi Djudy,
I too would be interested in hearing feedback from anyone with this bass, as it is clearly another potentially interesting option here in Europe.
I would like to make two observations however.
Firstly, here in Spain, I have found the Yamaha YCL 221-iis for sale for as little as 2,558,50 € including shipping. So not a lot more than what the Jupiter1000 seems to be going for.
Secondly if you ever come to want an upgrade to say...a low C bass for example, the Yamaha will no doubt hold its resale value much better than the Jupiter.
I believe that Thomann have a good return policy however, so if the Jupiter bought from them disappoints, then you can always return it .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-07-30 14:46
Ps.
Another advantage of buying Yamaha is that they tend to supply their instruments well adjusted. Bass' that come poorly adjusted ( and a lot do!) can easily require hours of expensive tech work just to start with.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Djudy
Date: 2023-07-30 16:53
Thank you Julian, all good points to take into account !
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