 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Minari001
Date: 2023-07-03 11:38
I recently bought second handed Buffet Festival. Problem is, previous owner of this clarinet did some weird thing on it. maybe the socket ring (Lower joint upper ring, and Bell ring) was loosen because of humidity and temperature. She used glue on socket rings and it looks really bad.. Even the ring was stick in the wrong direction! I cannot make contact to her, maybe later I'll try to ask about it..
Anyway Except this problem, every condition of this Festival is fine, but wrong socket ring makes me worrying about its durability and external appearance.
Actually if it is not a clarinet, It is quiet easy to remove. I can scratch it by my nails (without any damage on the wood) so I just tested some piece of this glue. It was melt in Alcohol (bought in pharmacy). and piece of glue has some elasticity. I know Many of glue can melt on hot temperature. (Not tested this one. too small piece to test it) but I cannot try all of this on my clarinet. If I wanna get any effect using Alcohol, It need to dip long time in the liquid and that is really bad idea to my wooden clarinet.
It doesn't looks like Super glue, hot melt or Cyanoacrylate adhesive. It looks more like Wood glue (I hope so..)
Some of repair professionals in my region said, this is rainy summer season so it's not good to try socket ring repairs (wood is expanded). Is there a good solution to remove the incorrectly mounted socket ring that is stuck with glue without damage on Lower joint? I really don't wanna get hurt on my clarinet anymore. Is waiting until the weather gets dry and cold the only solution to try to fix it?
Also, is there any critical danger if I keep using Socket ring that attached wrong direction? ex like It can cause crack more easier then normal condition, or sound tone problem etc..
Post Edited (2023-07-03 11:44)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-07-03 14:40
If it's been fitted upside down, then that's only a cosmetic thing and it can be removed and flipped over in due course.
On wooden clarinets you're safe to use alcohol or solvents to remove glue residue with no harm done to the wood, besides some lightening of the finish which you can restore by rubbing a little bore oil into the affected areas. Typically the socket rings should be a good tight fit on the sockets at this time of year and will loosen off when humidity levels drop in late autumn/early winter until mid to late spring.
While socket rings should be a press fit, there's no harm in using some glue to fill in any voids between them and the wood. If the socket rings are loose after they've been removed and all the old glue cleaned up, then you can always thinly coat the recess for the socket ring with superglue and let it dry before installing the socket ring to make it a better fit, then wick some more superglue into any voids and clean up any excess with acetone or similar solvent.
Liquid shellac can also be used and that too can be cleaned up with alcohol or solvents. Shellac will also melt with the careful application of heat - you can use a gas torch to direct the heat to where you want it (use the flame in a glancing manner against the side of socket ring instead of directly at it) and the wood won't be adversely affected provided you don't use too much heat - if you see the resins in the wood starting to bubble out, then that's your cue to back off.
If in doubt, take it to a woodwind specialist so they can remove and refit the socket rings.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: symphony1010
Date: 2023-07-03 16:33
If we were talking about a cheap instrument then maybe do it yourself but in this case I would take it to a good technician unless you really do have the experience.
I am able to strip my instruments quickly and easily but I generally don't because a really good (and I do mean REALLY good) technician knows so much more. They will find things that you haven't yet observed through playing - things that creep up on you!
On the subject of technicians there is just one living relatively close to me. Otherwise it's a 3 hour trip to London ... along with London prices.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2023-07-04 04:19
I've had success removing glued-on rings using an electric soldering iron as a source of heat. This is done 'dry", without any solder, as all you need is the heat. Holding the bit in contact with the stuck ring in several positions around the circumferance imparts enough heat to soften most glues.
Tony F.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2023-07-04 04:34
Chris P wrote:
> While socket rings should be a press fit, there's no harm in
> using some glue to fill in any voids between them and the wood.
> If the socket rings are loose after they've been removed and
> all the old glue cleaned up, then you can always thinly coat
> the recess for the socket ring with superglue and let it dry
> before installing the socket ring to make it a better fit, then
> wick some more superglue into any voids and clean up any excess
> with acetone or similar solvent.
Chris, I think I remember this coming up once a long time ago, and you disapproved, if I remember it accurately, of using a thin strip of paper to shim the socket to make it tight enough to press fit. If I've misremembered, I apologize in advance.
Also, why are small voids between the ring and the wood problems that need to filled with glue?
Karl
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2023-07-04 11:36
>> and you disapproved, if I remember it accurately, of using a thin strip of paper to shim the socket to make it tight enough to press fit. <<
Others may have posted about this before too, but here's why a "solid" shim like paper, plastic, etc. is worse. First a sort of disclaimer... a shim like that is ok. It's not like it is terrible and another type of shim is good. It's just that, having the choice (and usually you have the choice), it's not as good of an option.
A shim like this has a specific thickness that is very accurate. The gap between the ring and the socket is pretty much never the exact amount that an available specific thickness of paper/plastic would would be the perfect fit for.
You can somewhat change that by not e.g. not covering the entire circumference, but this will cause part of it to not be supported well - or at all - and in some cases can warp the socket. At worse cases this can also make the top of the socket smaller diameter than the bottom, which means a tenon might be slightly more difficult to start, then slightly loose once it's fully in. Or even worse, cause stresses in the wood from uneven distortion.
The socket OD is also not always very accurate (not perfectly round, etc.) so in theory it would be best to not use the exact same thickness of shim all around the circumference.
Luckily all of these issues are very easily solved by using a glue shim. It has none of these issues. Its supposed down sides are disproved by real world use showing they don't exist.
For wood clarinets, shellac is excellent.
It dries to a relatively rigid state which gives excellent support (compared with most other heat melting glues).
It fills the exact gap accurately around the circumference.
It takes a few minutes and you can play the clarinet immediately after (compared with e.g. slow drying epoxy).
It's very easy to redo if you ever move to a place with significantly different weather, etc.
For plastic clarinets I use a rapid epoxy. Although it would most likely be ok, I rather not use heat melting glue for plastic. This type of regular epoxy still dries firmly for good support (though it's less critical for plastic clarinets anyway) and you can ruin the glue with heat since you only need the ring to reach the temp (it's unlikely you would ever need to remove it).
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Author: kdk
Date: 2023-07-04 21:48
clarnibass wrote:
> >> and you disapproved, if I remember it accurately, of using a
> thin strip of paper to shim the socket to make it tight enough
> to press fit. <<
>
> A shim like this has a specific thickness that is very
> accurate.
>
>The gap between the ring and the socket is pretty
> much never the exact amount that an available specific
> thickness of paper/plastic would would be the perfect fit for.
Depending on the paper you use, it's also reasonably compressible. If it's a tight enough fit to need light mallet pressure to get the ring to seat, the paper is probably no longer a consistent thickness, but has compressed (slightly) as needed to fill the space.
> You can somewhat change that by not e.g. not covering the
> entire circumference, but this will cause part of it to not be
> supported well - or at all - and in some cases can warp the
> socket. At worse cases this can also make the top of the socket
> smaller diameter than the bottom, which means a tenon might be
> slightly more difficult to start, then slightly loose once it's
> fully in. Or even worse, cause stresses in the wood from uneven
> distortion.
> For wood clarinets, shellac is excellent.
I've wondered about how to do this. Do you dissolve it in alcohol and brush it onto the ring? Or the wood? Do you heat the ring to dissolve the alcohol once the ring is in place? Or is there some other way?
Karl
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-07-05 01:45
Paper shims will only be suitable if the gap between the socket ring and the recess are wide enough if the wood has shrunken considerably. For socket rings that have become loose enough to spin but not so loose they rattle, then shimming wit paper will compress the socket too much at the open end. It's also been shown in repair manuals to use cloth to shim loose socket rings, but fabric is typically thicker than regular A4 paper.
Liquid shellac can be applied by smearing it around the recess and on the inside of the socket ring, then wiping any excess that oozes out with an alcohol soaked rag. The alcohol will evaporate on its own accord and you won't need to use heat to install the socket ring, although heat can be used to melt the shellac when removing it when the shellac has hardened, or to make it flow to fill in any voids.
If you are going to use paper or fabric shims, then you're best machining the recess so it's perfectly round if it's gone oval.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-07-05 10:10
I've found one can restore a firm press-on fit using Teflon tape . It needs to be applied tightly and beyond the end of the tenon to prevent it dragging- bunching when pressing on the ring, but with the right amount of tape applied you can press on the ring very firmly and smoothly yet without tape dragging issues.
This leaves you once again with a dry press-on fit which strikes me as being the ideal .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2023-07-06 11:40
>> Depending on the paper you use, it's also reasonably compressible. If it's a tight enough fit to need light mallet pressure to get the ring to seat, the paper is probably no longer a consistent thickness, but has compressed (slightly) as needed to fill the space. <<
Yes it compresses somewhat but still just not as good as other options.
>> I've wondered about how to do this. Do you dissolve it in alcohol and brush it onto the ring? Or the wood? Do you heat the ring to dissolve the alcohol once the ring is in place? Or is there some other way? <<
I heat the ring, smear shellac on it, and while it is is still hot enough for the shellac to be liquidy I put it on the socket. Remove any excess if there's any (scrape from the top, you can wipe with alcohol which dissolves shellac).
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Author: Dibbs
Date: 2023-07-06 17:31
Most paper hardly compresses at all. Try taking a brand new book and putting it in a vice. You have to crank like hell to get any significant compression.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2023-07-06 18:14
Dibbs wrote:
> Most paper hardly compresses at all. Try taking a brand new
> book and putting it in a vice. You have to crank like hell to
> get any significant compression.
Well, it doesn't have to compress very much - we're talking about hundredths or even thousandths of an inch between a tight and a loose fit and usually only a single thickness of paper. In my experience there's enough give in standard newsprint to do the job.
But we're nit-picking the question, which is whether paper shimming (which can be done on the fly with no tools other than a razor blade - or reed knife - for trimming) is as good a fix for a loose ring as glue. The answer I seem to have gotten from the experienced repair people here is that paper can work satisfactorily, but glue or shellac is better.
Karl
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Author: kdk
Date: 2023-07-07 00:20
BTW, my first remedy for a loose ring is simply to put the ring back on and humidify the instrument over a night or two. Rings often loosen during cold, dry weather when the dry central heat is working its hardest. I used to put a Dampit or two, or a few pieces of orange peel in the clarinet case. Nowadays, I would use a 72% Boveda pack.
I would shim, using glue, shellac or paper, if humidity didn't tighten the rings.
Karl
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2023-07-07 09:32
>> Well, it doesn't have to compress very much - we're talking about hundredths or even thousandths of an inch between a tight and a loose fit and usually only a single thickness of paper. In my experience there's enough give in standard newsprint to do the job. <<
Not exactly. No where near a hundred of an inch, let alone hundreds. Regular printer paper is 0.1mm or less, which is approx 0.0039" - rounding it to 0.004" (four thousands of an inch). That is usually too thick for a very loose ring (e.g. slides off without very little force). Newspaper is about half that.
>> But we're nit-picking the question, which is whether paper shimming (which can be done on the fly with no tools other than a razor blade - or reed knife - for trimming) is as good a fix for a loose ring as glue. The answer I seem to have gotten from the experienced repair people here is that paper can work satisfactorily, but glue or shellac is better. <<
Yes, but many people still seem to think paper/plastic is the better method and the reason seems to be because it's the traditional/old method. It's easier in that it doesn't require having any real supplies, but it has more serious disadvantages. If someone is "stranded" it's fine, but usually there is no reason not to glue it. Another issue is that quite a few repairers are not open to accept that glue is a better method in most cases.
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