 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: senexclarinetta
Date: 2023-06-07 18:44
I started playing bass clarinet for the first time two months ago. I am a reasonably competent amateur clarinetist getting back into it after a long break. I love it and it's come along much easier than I thought it would - I'm learning the Bach cello suite #1 for fun and to practice leaps and bass clef at the same time.
I'm currently renting a Yamaha 221-II through a local store. It's a rent to own program but I do not intend to keep this instrument. It's fine - sharp everywhere but the low E -- but for $2600 there are better options. So I'm in the market for a bass clarinet.
I'm not currently playing bass in any ensemble but there are a lot of local options and opportunities; mostly I'm just playing for fun
So what do I buy? I've read most of the Internet at this point.
Option 1: find a cheap auction site low Eb bass in good repair (ca. $1000-$1500). Get a good mouthpiece, have fun, think about upgrading to a Royal Global MAX in a few years if needed. If not needed, enjoy the savings.
Option 2: get a Kessler low C, play it probably forever. ($2500)
Option 3: get Royal Global MAX, hide receipts from spouse. Definitely play it forever.
I'm mostly thinking out loud here, but what would you do?
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Author: Ebclarinet1
Date: 2023-06-07 20:41
Several of my friends bought Ridenour basses to low C and have been happy with them. They have a surprisingly nice big sound too.
Eefer guy
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-06-07 21:17
My wife has the Ridenour 925 too and it's pretty good sound performance wise ,but the mechanics and plating are a little mediocre.I'm guessing that if you can stretch by hook or by crook to the Global MAX you'll never regret it .
I confess I haven't actually seen one yet ,but I suspect this bass may well offer the best value for money on the market at the moment , especially if as they claim ,it has the same key work quality as their pricier models .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2023-06-07 21:47
The Max is amazing, I used to own a Ridenour and had access to a Kessler for a good while and there is no comparison. The key work on the Max is more solid than any other Chinese made bass clarinet or the Yamaha 622 for that matter. In fact I like mine more than any Buffet 1193 I've tried (The Royal horns tend to be a bit more free blowing than the Buffets, especially the Greenline basses). I still think the Kessler and Ridenour are good horns but depending on how much you play you will want something better down the road.
-JDbassplayer
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Author: senexclarinetta
Date: 2023-06-07 22:17
Thanks - I appreciate all the thoughts. I'm not in a position to try one easily. It sounds like the Kessler is good but is a horn that would be outgrown?
(TBF, I have been playing on an E11 I bought in 1996 and while I've outgrown it, I haven't upgraded, mostly because I spent a decent amount of time playing the eefer and then didn't bother upgrading for college band..and then I decided to try bass instead of finding a used R 13 like a sensible middle aged hobbyist.)
I do not want a mechanical headache but I'm usually pretty gentle on equipment. Are repair techs generally OK with working on Kesslers?
But here's the question: Kessler over less expensive secondhand low Eb, assuming an upgrade in the future? Is the low C worth the premium?
Again, mostly thinking out loud, but open to all opinions.
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-06-08 00:18
The additional low notes and price jump from a low Eb to C is really a matter of individual choice, but this step does result in what I see as quite a significant increase in mechanical /regulation complexity . Enough so that I think it's worth considering as part of making this choice as it's likely to add some headaches.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: kilo
Date: 2023-06-08 20:21
I started on a Yamaha 221 and when I realized that I wanted to concentrate on bass I bought a Selmer Series 9 (Model 30) from a reputable dealer for $1600 and had it shipped directly to my tech to get in in optimum playing condition. He basically overhauled it and buffed the keywork for another $800.
I love that instrument but began to feel that a low C would be a good investment, as it opens up more musical opportunities. So when the Royal Max came out I was intrigued. (My tech had cautioned me about the keywork on the Kesslers.) The reviews of the Max were so positive that I thought about it for maybe an hour before contacting Earspasm and putting in an order. I don't regret it one bit.
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Author: Connor1700
Date: 2023-06-09 00:52
Stay away from Ridenour-- crap. For that matter, stay away from all Chinese made basses-- crap. On top of that NO ONE wants to work on them.
If your budget allows, definitely go with a low C. You'll be happy you did.
Contact Michael Lowenstern in NY. He's a font of knowledge and now a dealer in many brands. <www.earspasm.com>
Invest in a pro level mouthpiece.
Have fun!
Post Edited (2023-06-09 00:53)
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Author: DNBoone
Date: 2023-06-09 05:02
The Ridenour isn't any worse to work on than Jupiter, Selmer USA, Bundy, Leblanc, etc that we see by the truckload from local schools in the shop I'm at.
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-06-09 16:09
Techs are just people !......some may be snobs about what they'll work on ,while others are committed to doing what is required for the customer .
They don't like " soft" keywork issues because those can't be fixed in a lasting way , but I believe that the Chinese made horns previously mentioned no longer suffer from that problem .
I think that the Royal Global instruments reflect what the Chinese are capable of and its a mistake to automatically associate their products with poor craftsmanship.
The Chinese product quality tends to be a reflection of what they're getting paid to make something ( by us in the West) the latter tending to be the most wanting side of the equation determining the resultant quality.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Mojo
Date: 2023-06-09 17:10
I purchased a Kessler first gen in 2015. In 2016 I got Mike Hammer (near Philly) to set it up properly. He charged $500 at that time. He fixed the routine minor leaks, changed the register key motion, and found a leak in the neck tuning slide. But he just gooped up the slide with cork grease to fix it. I don’t think I got $500 worth of work but I would have hated to pay half that much and not get everything taken care of.
The mind set that all Chinese made horns have soft key work is out dated.
I do play a Selmer 37 now. It is about 20% better for me than my Kessler… but at 5X the price. I keep the Kessler as a backup.
MojoMP.com
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
MojoMouthpieceWork@yahoo.com
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-06-09 17:41
Hi Mojo ,
I think you've just summed it up well .
If you get a new Kessler or Ridenour ,unlike a 10k bass you should expect to pay maybe 500$ for a tech to really get all the little bugs out , but even factoring that additional cost in ,these instruments come out pretty well inoffering quality for overall price .
They also offer a "less worries" element over a 10k bass that makes for happy musical days.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: senexclarinetta
Date: 2023-06-09 22:39
I was less concerned about the origin of the instruments or the prejudices of techs as I was with a quirk of the keywork or something proprietary that might make repairs more difficult or impossible
If money were no object, the Max would be what I'd order; I'm in a dry climate and so a composite is appealing and I have no need for a pro horn. It's not impossible budget-wise, but it's a big and unexpected purchase for someone two months into a rental Yamaha.
Many of you have mentioned Ridenour; I had ruled it out on the grounds that it was functionally the same as the Kessler but more expensive. Anyone have experience with both?
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Author: senexclarinetta
Date: 2023-06-09 22:43
Actually, check that -- once one includes the mouthpiece, they're about dead even. Still -- any head to head comparisons?
Thanks for letting me pick your brains!
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2023-06-09 23:38
Having played both extensively, I would say in a broad sense that they are similar with the Ridenour having slightly better intonation but the Kessler having slightly better response IMHO. Both instruments have had major updates since I've played them with the Ridenour now having silver plating and the Kessler having an improved neck, making the choice even tougher. If I had to choose between the two I would personally go with the Ridenour just because I prefer silver plated keys.
I would say that the quality of the higher end Chinese bass clarinets has improved tremendously over the last few years and complaints about soft key work are outdated when speaking of instruments like the Ridenour and Kessler. New Chinese instruments are orders of magnitude better than they were 10 or even 5 years ago. Even Michael Lowenstern has now given favorable reviews of the Kessler and Max bass clarinets. Many techs around the country have also become dealers of Royal clarinets, so the idea that nobody wants to work on Chinese instruments is silly.
-JDbassplayer
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Author: Connor1700
Date: 2023-06-10 07:18
I've had extensive time on many of the instruments discussed here. We all have different likes and dislikes. We all have different resources/budgets. It's great there are more and more choices for bass clarinet players, but there's a reason a Ridenour is $2500 and a Buffet, Uebel, Selmer is $10k+.... you get what you pay for. A Toyota Tercel and a Mercedes S Class will get you from point A to point B; it's about the ride you want to take, and can afford to take.
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-06-10 11:16
Hi Senexclarinetta,
I don't think that either the Kessler or Ridenour will result in mechanical issues without remedy . The keywork is solid .
My wife's horn had an accident leaving the bridge keys looking like an autumn tree branch after a storm , but I had it set right in under an hours work, because the posts and hinging are solid and were therefore undamaged .
I wouldn't worry about the scenario of taking one into a tech for any reason and having them shake their head over repairs / regulation .
That's an old myth based on soft keywork issues with the Ridenour bass many, many years ago .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-06-10 16:47
Ps.
One aspect best not overlooked in buying a Kessler or Ridenour bass , is the serviceability of the case it comes with . If the pockets allow the parts to fly around inside, then one either needs to glue in foam blocks to stop this happening ,or add the expense of a better case onto the overall cost of your purchase.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: LostConn
Date: 2023-06-11 02:25
According to Kessler, they began shipping their bass clarinet with an improved, more protective standard case in 2023.
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Author: donald
Date: 2023-06-11 05:52
There are still really really really really bad Chinese made instruments, but Kessler and Ridenour don't fit into this category (and were always significantly better than the worse examples).
That said, buy one of those and you should not, as is stated above, expect the same quality as a pro horn, but you SHOULD be able to expect something that is sturdy and doesn't fall apart.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2023-06-11 07:24
Hi All,
My backup bass is an Expressivo Low C instrument that I got at Meridian Winds in Michigan. There are two things that really sold me. First, Meridian goes over each bass before it goes out and adjusts it and second, each instrument comes with a Bam case.
This cool looking black bass is very sturdy, and the intonation is as good as my Selmer Privilege Model 65 (low Eb). But I have a low C bass as my backup and for the extended range when needed.
HRL
PS I have no business interest in Meridian Winds but am just a satisfied customer.
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Author: senexclarinetta
Date: 2023-06-11 07:42
Both Kessler and Ridenour are touting their new sturdy cases, so it seems they're listening to feedback.
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-06-11 10:25
My wife got her Ridenour bass from Leslie Craven,who is the UK. based supplier of these horns here in Europe,and I expect that his cases are not the same as the ones you get buying in the States . The case is " sturdy" enough, but the pocket fitting was lousy and I had to do a good bit of work on it to get the parts not to rattle about .
However sturdy the case is , best not let the "pocket fit " angle go overlooked as it can land you with additional costs and headaches .
Hi Hank,
Never heard of the Expressivo bass !.....sounds interesting!
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-06-11 11:19
Just to emphasize what I mean by a bad case , aside from all the parts rattling about inside my wife's bass case , the cutout for the lower joint just curved gently from the body pocket into the cutout for the long bridge keys . This meant that when you set the case on end ( something for which it has an extra handle at one end with coresponding feet at the other ) the weight of the lower joint pile-drives the bridge keys between the styrofoam padding until they come up agains the inside of the zipper . The longest of the bridge keys was bent sideways when we got the bass, after its short transport from Bristol to London.
The case looks great however, but offered an entirely false impression of actually protecting the instrument .
I don't want to labor the whole case thing , but a case with such issues is NO friend to the instrument .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2023-06-11 11:51
Since Chinese bass clarinets have improved so much in the last few years, I'm wondering how good/bad the cheap ones really are. Excluding any later work by an importer/dealer/repairer.
Royal Global seems to actually be essentially a Chinese company making clarinets in China. I don't know if they have their own factory and their own specific design.
Almost all (if not all) of the others basically import bass clarinets and might have some requests about the design.
Since they aren't nearly as common as soprano clarinets, I guess there aren't that many different ones and improvements are very likely to eventually seep into other bass clarinets. Quality can still vary and affect the price, but I suspect that not enough bass clarinets are needed in the world that it happens to the same degree.
Has anyone tried a random, almost (or completely) identical looking no-name Chinese bass clarinet?
Post Edited (2023-06-11 12:05)
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-06-11 15:23
Well !... I believe that the Royal Global , Kessler and Ridenour are US companies and designed in the US ,and these companies defend their reputations by maintaining levels of quality control on what leaves the China factories plus their after work . This means that what issues,( if any) that remain when they arrive at the consumer aren't sever, and if they are you have recourse through the company.
If you buy a Chinese label /design one, then it may be a hopeless case to ever get to work/ play properly, and you will unlikely be able to return it .
That said you CAN buy the Ridenour Lyrique 925 , under other brand names, because Tom sold the marketing rights to the manufacturers. My wife's is from Leslie Craven in the UK ,and he's now marketing the entire Ridenour line under his own " Craven Sonora " logo , and ordering directly from the China factory .
It wouldn't surprise me if the manufacturers likewise had marketing rights on the Kessler .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-06-11 17:25
Now I think about it , I saw some young man on YouTube, who bought such a "No brand " Chinese bass for I believe 500$ . He then took it entirely to pieces , ground tone hole chimneys , filed rods etc..etc .... When finished, he daclared that it compared quite favorably with his Selmer , but went on to cautioned that some of these cheap Chinese bass' could NOT be made good .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Hunter_100
Date: 2023-06-11 17:25
Meridian does not list the espressivo any more on their website. I wonder if they are still making it. Maybe it is a special order situation now?
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-06-11 17:38
Hi Hank ,
Well thanks for mentioning this bass as being a possible option for the topic poster and anyone else on the lookout at the moment .
The choices on more economically priced bass' are always a bit limited.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2023-06-11 18:22
Hunter 100,
Yes, I saw that as well. Perhaps anyone interested can just email or phone Meridian Winds for the status of the Espressivo Low C bass.
HRL
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2023-06-11 19:38
That was me with the $500 bass clarinet. As far as I could tell it was identical to the last generation of Ridenour. But yeah almost every single pivot key was binding due to the keys not being fit properly and almost every tone hole needed to be refinished. After I was done it played well, but obviously a lot of work had to be put into it, so it is not cost effective for the average person to buy a generic low C bass.
Royal is the only brand of Chinese bass clarinet that is not just a stencil with their name slapped on it, the design is mostly a copy of the 1193 which is something I’ve never seen on a Chinese bass (they are usually a mishmash of Yamaha and Selmer design elements). It does have some features that the 1193 does not like inline trill keys, so some thought was put into the design.
The Expressivo, 2nd generation Ridenour and 1st Generation Kessler all appear to be the same design, though obviously newer instruments will likely have stronger materials. This design is loosely based on the Selmer 67, though with the tone hole positions of the Yamaha
The 2nd generation Kessler, 1st generation Ridenour and the Allora both appear to be based on the same design, a close copy of the Yamaha 622 with a different arrangement for the thumb keys.
Most of these instruments are likely made by Sunwin Fabian, a Chinese manufacturer that makes instruments to a much higher quality than the Generic ones you see on eBay or Aliexpress, I would avoid those unless you are prepared to fully overhaul the instrument.
There is also the Brasspire Unicorn and Music Medic “Wilmington” which have interesting features like a 6th right hand pinky key and a vent hole in the bell, but otherwise appear to be similar to the Yamaha copies mentioned above.
-Jdbassplayer
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-06-11 20:01
So that video was you Jbassplayer ! ...Ha-ha-ha !
I remember thinking " That young man knows what he's doing !"
You clearly also know the "in's and out's " about these Chinese bass' .
Thank you !....that's all VERY interesting information that goes a long way to answering some of the questions asked on this thread .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Hunter_100
Date: 2023-06-11 21:32
Hank, I will have to go up there for work on my eb some time this summer. I will ask them about it. I wish they just became a dealer for Royal...I bet they would sell a ton of Max and Polaris instruments around SE MI.
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Author: senexclarinetta
Date: 2023-06-12 01:37
JD, you're the YouTube dude with the $500 bass? Ha! Well, thank you for making the video and for posting here.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2023-06-12 08:23
>> I believe that the Royal Global , Kessler and Ridenour are US companies and designed in the US ,and these companies defend their reputations by maintaining levels of quality control on what leaves the China factories plus their after work . This means that what issues,( if any) that remain when they arrive at the consumer aren't sever, and if they are you have recourse through the company. <<
From what I could find, Royal Global is apparently owned by a Chinese clarinetist, which makes sense as they would probably know how to deal with Chinese factories much better. They are listed in the USA but seems that they are basically a Chinese company.
Western importers sometimes have input, request, add design features, etc. The factories would basically do whatever you are willing to pay for. To say they design the instrument is a long stretch, almost all of them are sort of copies of Yamaha/Selmer/Buffet anyway.
As far as non-severe issues because of reputable importers, without mentioning anyone specific I recently had a saxophone branded by one of the companies mentioned in this thread. It had appalling build quality, and probably the absolute worst leaking neck tenon joint I've seen on any saxophone, including very old and worn ones and the cheapest most terrible new ones. The mag needle didn't even move from fully open.
In general "forum reputation" is more often than I'd like to think is different from "real world" and "professional repair group" reputation... unfortunately. Not to say any of the above aren't very good, just in general why I'm skeptical.
>> Royal is the only brand of Chinese bass clarinet that is not just a stencil with their name slapped on it <<
Maybe being essentially entirely Chinese and being more knowledgeable with the intricacies that come with that, while also supposedly being quality oriented, makes a lot of difference in that sense.
Something interesting is that the Max is basically a Greenline-like material, but basically the same as the Polaris, yet it is much less... but not so much less like plastic student models are in relation to good wood models.
Hard to imagine the difference is from the material alone.
I'm wondering if there's a significant build quality difference. For example I've seen your photos of the Max and it had rough filings on the key hinges for clearance, which is very common on very cheap instruments. Curious if the Polaris has stuff like that too, which could absolutely account for the difference, even if acoustic design is identical.
>> That was me with the $500 bass clarinet. <<
I don't know about the $500 Chinese bass. Can't find it anymore, or any other for that price. ebay Chinese bass clarinets are mostly in the $1500 range. I'm curious because a friend is considering one. The only local importer is out of stock for the foreseeable future (I guess the local equivalent to Thomann, Kessler, Ridenour). He would bring me the bass to go over but there is only so much they would want to spend on it. With shipping and tax it's still much less than the local one, close to half.
One bass clarinet player here bought one and they happy with it (playable out of the box, decent tone and intonation).
It's possible the ones sold to importers go through an extra step of someone going over them (at the factory)... or not.
Post Edited (2023-06-12 08:25)
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-06-12 10:32
Well I don't believe that a Rideour or Kessler are likely to come without a smattering of issues to sort out . If one orders online , then one's gambling with what those issues are . If you can drive to try one out, then you're in control of that side of things .
That or astablishing and finding acceptable the online supplier's return and exchange policies .
Otherwise this rather turns into a " How long is a piece of string " debate, that probably fails to offer sufficient consensus of opinion to be of much help to the perspective buyer .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-06-12 21:04
I just thought of something, although I don't know if this bass model is available in the US .
Leslie Craven in the UK. ,is now phasing out the Ridenour bass in favor of another from the same manufacturers.( same price too ).
He's got it labeled as his BC 01 Craven Sonoro.
( He was selling the Ridenour Lyrique 925 as " BC 02 Craven Sonoro ")
This model has rollers on the thumb keys ( Nice!) . More limited screw adjustment on the upper joint ( not so nice !) . A better working low D mechanism with a LH bridge key option that actually works ( Apparently!)
He doesn't have many stock photos so there's a lot I couldn't see , but the pad cups are domed unlike the flat ones on the Rid' so I think this must be a fairly different design .
Perhaps it will get launch in the US. next week as the 3rd generation Kessler.
Ha-ha-ha !
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2023-06-12 21:22
That “new roller mechanism” appears to be a copy of the Yamaha 622. In fact it was present on the very first TR147 Chinese low C bass clarinet from the mid 2000s… The padcups on the TR147 were also domed.
IMHO the thumb key arrangement on the current Kessler & Ridenour is superior.
-JDbassplayer
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-06-12 22:03
I'm glad I bought Les's last Ridenour then ....and for only 1,700€ .....those roller thumb keys do indeed look a bit like a collection of baking trays. Ha-ha !
JD....You are a veritable bass clarinet Encyclopedia Britannica... Impressive!
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: JamesOrlandoGarcia
Date: 2023-10-26 01:11
In reply to the original poster:
Option 3: Get the Royal Max! If the upfront price is a bit high, find a dealer that partners with a lender. Often these lenders can offer a lower interest rate or no interest if you pay off the instrument in six months.
I play on a prestige bass but the max is really quite excellent and I've enjoyed playing on when I've tried them at clarinefest. With these instruments on the market, there is really no reason to get an old selmer or anything else. The Max is great and is ideal for almost every amateur music, high school (most college) and pit settings. Heck, I'd use on with the orchestra for our ourdoor concerts if they gave me one.
James Garcia
Bass Clarinet/Clarinet III, Des Moines Symphony Orchestra
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Author: Max S-D
Date: 2023-10-31 05:36
I've played the Kessler and I've been told it's about the same as the Ridenour (give or take a clean, oil, adjust). It's a good bass for the money if you don't want to take a flyer on a more unknown entity. Fora period it was kind of the only thing in between the Bundy level and a professional model.
I recently played with some bass clarinetists, one of whom had a Royal Max that he was very happy with and sounded excellent on. Another player was considering upgrading from his Yamaha and asked to try it. I was surprised how much better he sounded right away. I think he's already ordered one.
I want to put it up against my old selmer 33 next time. I'm guessing my selmer will hold its own for tone but will be beaten on intonation and evenness of response. I know my horn well and I'm not looking to switch but I could easily see it being an easier instrument to play beautifully.
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Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2023-10-31 06:36
Get the Max!! I played the Max Bass in Denver it is great. I just got a Max Bb and it’s amazing. There is nothing you can’t do on a Max bass. Just take time to get a great mouthpiece and learn how to adjust your reed. Tom Puwalski
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