 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2023-04-26 07:17
With all the recent discussions about synthetic reeds...I don't remember seeing any discussions about the safety of using synthetic reeds.
I remember playing Plasti-coat reeds as a kid, and hated when the coating would start flaking off, I'd quit using them (probably long after I should have). I tried Fibracell reeds for quite a while too.
I'm curious about the stuff too small to see - especially for those who play on artificial reeds for hours every day over the course of a lifetime. Could the constant vibration slough off microscopic pieces into our bloodstreams? Could the intermittent sucking on the mouthpiece/reed to remove moisture cause any problems over decades of use?
I know Bob Bernardo has posted about safety concerns of certain brands of cane reed - but I've been unable to find any such discussion (or studies) pertaining to the various synthetic reeds.
Any direction to studies or whatnot would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2023-04-26 08:47
I have gone back to practicing on wood the last few months but for about 4 plus years I practiced a half hour daily on the same Legere reed. I haven't noticed aney problemf yets bute yiu nevtyun knso zzb quirts.
Sorry, I had to do that, like when someone asks on the scuba forum about using months old tank air.
Good luck finding real info.
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
Post Edited (2023-04-26 08:47)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-04-26 08:50
Hi Fuzzy,
There seems to be a lot of research showing that we're all full of plastic microparticles already from zillions of other sources.
I'm not sure whether that means that we should just shrug and carry on, but, it might be that it's hard to separate the effects of this one plastic source from the effect of all the others.
I suppose the question maybe is whether people have had specific problems from using plastic that they didn't have using cane. Is that what you're thinking about?
Jen
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Author: hans
Date: 2023-04-26 10:21
If ingested non-reactive plastic particles were health hazards there should have been much evidence/studies to show that by now, n'est-ce pas?
Hans
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-04-26 23:13
Let's take a slight step back for a moment. There are those still not familiar with Legere or other similar solid pieces of synthetic material. It would not be fair to compare anything with a plastic coating to these solid pieces. There is nothing to "break off" or deteriorate as you might experience with older, coated cane reeds. The good news about large pieces of plastic as far as we are concerned is that they are non-reactive to water or any of our biological processes.
Now, Michael Lowenstern and his wife just did a review of the new Vandoren synthetics. In the video Michael warms everyone NOT to sand a synthetic reeds. This would of course cause the creation of much smaller particles that could conceivably enter a persons blood stream and cause medical issues down the road (the micro plastics problem........we ALL now have a measurable amount in us already and you can find plenty of references for that).
As far as any sort of wear or deterioration of the synthetic reeds over time, it has been my experience that this does NOT happen. The degradation of performance only comes in the form of the reed bending closer to the mouthpiece over time and manifesting a weaker performance. I have now started looking down both side edges of my older synthetics, noting where the bend happens and bending them back to a straight plane. This completely brings the old reeds back to life!
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: hans
Date: 2023-04-26 23:45
Thank you Philip, that is a very interesting article.
Regards,
Hans
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Author: Ed
Date: 2023-04-27 00:44
It does give something to consider. If there are safety or health issues, it may not be known for a number of years down the road.
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Author: super20dan
Date: 2023-04-27 02:49
paul how are you straightening them ? i have several euro legeres with warped tips that stopped playing prematurely. i tried storage in metal reed gaurds -didnt help
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-04-27 03:06
Attachment: Straighten Reed.jpg (91k)
It was a very short learning curve and I've gotten pretty good at it. I place the reed perpendicular across the table of the mouthpiece and do one slight bend and check at a time. If you're familiar with the "reed flick" method, it looks similar except you hold the stock and bend up slightly instead of "flicking."
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2023-04-27 23:21
Paul,
I hope you'll understand that I was not comparing Plasti-coat reeds to Legere. My mention of Plasti-coat and Fibracell reeds was intended to show that even early on, I accepted and tried synthetic reeds, or synthetically-altered reeds. That my question isn't one out of bias for cane, even though I do play cane at the present time.
Everyone,
The reason behind my question was: kids.
Do we have any data showing that the chemicals used in these reeds will not cause harm when used daily over the course of a lifetime?
A reed is different than most other uses of synthetic materials that I can think of. It is placed directly in the mouth where it is attacked by the body's systems. Likewise, the synthetic material is extremely thin, and set to vibrate at various speeds - and is then sucked clean by the player. This is done for hours every single day over the course of the life of the diligent player.
Do we know the exact chemical makeup of the various synthetic reeds?
Remember all the plastic water/food containers that were used in the 80s? Only later did we realize the danger and switch to "safer" plastics.
If there is absolutely no issue with synthetic reeds - why the warning about not sanding? This is a contradiction - either there is no danger, or there is some danger. Thus my question: is there research to guide us? Do we have real data, scientifically measured - even estimated, to show if any problems will exist? Since there appears to be an assumed danger, is there a measure of that danger so that we might ascertain the risks?
Much like cyanide in the seeds of various fruits and berries - the fact that there is a danger doesn't prohibit use, but it is handy to know the measure - how much is safe - so that we can make informed decisions - or at minimum, later make a proper diagnosis.
Other than personal observations, what data can be provided about particle displacement from the reeds over a given time? Why does the reed wear out? Surely some type of breakdown is occurring. Why do some synthetic reeds play flat as they are played for longer duration? I would think the manufacturers would know the answers to some of these questions...is that research available to the public?
The alternative to studies, is that we simply trust the major corporate conglomerates and assume safety - possibly exposing an entire generation of children to harm - only to later say, "Well, it is terrible what happened, but we just really didn't know at the time." We've heard that excuse so many times about other things - the excuse should not be accepted in modern times. We have the means and reason to demand the work/data up front.
Lest anyone misunderstand this defense of my original post: I'm not suggesting there is harm. I've simply asked if there are studies which show us one way or the other.
Thanks,
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2023-04-28 00:19
Not sure why there's been no worry about cane reeds, from the manufacturing process through the final product.
Unless my semi-educated guess is totally wrong, it seems that cane would have the potential to acquire and carry many more pathogens than the modern plastics used for synthetic reeds might.
B.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2023-04-28 01:03
I'm not sue anyone is worrying much about pathogens (organisms) on the synthetics - it's the actual chemical components of the material.
I had never really thought about a company that wouldn't check its material against known carcinogens.
Karl
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2023-04-28 02:34
Quote:
I had never really thought about a company that wouldn't check its material against known carcinogens.
My first reaction to your statement was, "It isn't the known, but perhaps the unknown."
However, the more I thought about it - companies use known carcinogens all the time (read the labels on anything sold in California. Proposition 65.) Or, as mentioned - even food items containing poison, etc. It is the amount of exposure which is usually the critical factor - not the presence itself.
In attempting to find data pertaining to the above fact...I missed the mark, but found these interesting reports:
https://www.fastcompany.com/90649480/there-are-thousands-more-toxic-chemicals-in-plastic-than-we-thought and
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.1c00976 - at least part of the underlying funding for the report was provided by, "the Swiss Federal Office for the Environment (8T20/17.0103.PJ), the Swiss Federal Office of Public Health (18.000809), and the Canton of Zurich’s Office for Waste, Water, Energy and Air"
The report(s) served to further pique my personal curiosity on this topic. There do seem to be some reports/studies out there about certain materials...but do we even know what materials/chemicals to be evaluating for each brand/make of synthetic reed?
Thanks!
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2023-04-28 16:31
Good topic. I'm still planning on trying Legeres the next time I buy reeds. Yet,
We use plastic utensils and straws and drink from plastic bottles. Food is sold in plastic bags. Medicine is packaged in plastic. My toothbrush, even the bristles, is all plastic. We're in almost continuous physical contact with plastic. People are dependent on large plastic production and distribution systems for almost every need. Existing regulations for plastic are based on information that's mostly old and vastly incomplete.
At this time, around 10 million tons of plastic enter the ocean each year. Extending the curve has the weight of plastic in the ocean exceeding the weight of fish by around 2050. Plastic in the environment breaks into gradually smaller pieces, eventually reaching microscopic. In the ocean, microplastic is consumed along with plankton, and it proceeds from there along the food chain.
Whatever harm comes from putting plastic in your mouth, we've all already got it. Some of us lived decades before ubiquitous plastic, and so may accumulate less in the end, but those who are younger will consume plastic their whole lives.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-04-28 18:29
I have not researched how plastics become micro plastics but it HAS to be mechanical such as beating, shaving, grinding, since the miracle of plastic is that it is non reactive.
Do not worry about holding a piece of non reactive plastic in your mouth.
I’m not worried about cane either frankly, but I just rather use Legere for now.
……….Paul Aviles
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2023-04-28 20:38
Well, I think the lack of an answer is the answer.
The things which have most amused me in this thread:
1. "Well, we have so much plastic in our bodies...what's a little more exposure more or less?" seems to be the general attitude. This seems inconsistent to me in some ways, because none of us feel this way about (say) our impact on the environment, where the statement "Every little bit helps" has been the mantra for so long. Yet, when it involves our own bodies, or the bodies of those who will grow up in this world after us - the standard is basically, "Oh, well, it is what it is." (not a blanket statement about all the posts)
2. The recurring use of the word "non-reactive." I think of things like asbestos and the miracle it was...until it wasn't. It isn't that asbestos changed - just our understanding of it changed. I wonder if 100 years from now, we'll look back at plastics the same way we do now?
I don't offer these as arguments - just points that amuse me and that I'll personally take away from the thread to think more about.
Thanks to all who participated and shared their ideas/thoughts on the matter.
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
Post Edited (2023-04-28 20:40)
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-04-30 11:23
Hi Fuzzy ,
As I'm sure you know , lots of products on the market contain substances which are known to present health risks, but providing that our exposure to them is deemed to be within permissible levels it's all considered fine .
How that works in reality I'm not sure . I doubt very much that some earnest health and safely official will ever rush up to you at a party and tell you that you really shouldn't drink from the plastic cups because your ingestion of plastics is at its limit because you use synthetic reeds .
I know that in the States at least , manufactures are responsible for doing their own health and safety testing on products they put on the market . This means that those investigations can center more around their risks of getting sued for jeopardizing public health than actually doing so , and the two things don't have a particularly strong case history of ever having gone hand in hand .
All in all the regulation of these things tends to exploit the benefit of the doubt rather than apply common sense regarding the potential know risks .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2023-04-30 16:39
Hi Fuzzy. I didn't mean to imply that ingesting a bit more plastic wouldn't change anything etc. The main point is that data is incomplete, and yet we've filled our environment with those chemicals, which I don't like one bit.
Personally speaking, I still want to at least try Legere reeds to see what I think for myself about how they play. There seem to be zero reports or indications of harm (but they haven't really been looking either.) Any risk would evidently be of long-term potential, decades probably. I'm 70.
That's the way it goes: on a personal level the mathematical risk of this, or that, or etc. seems negligible, but in general I am concerned, suspicious, or even opposed to whatever it is.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2023-04-30 22:45
Caution: living may be hazardous to your health.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2023-05-01 06:02
Fuzzy wrote:
> With all the recent discussions about synthetic reeds...I don't
> remember seeing any discussions about the safety of using
> synthetic reeds.
>
I for one Fuzzy would like to read from Vandoren that their new synthetic offering just announced, (like Legere reeds) are BPA (Bisphenol A) free. 
BPA was a chemical eliminated from most plastics that had it, thought to negatively effect the endocrine system when humans were exposed to relatively high levels of it.
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Author: alanporter
Date: 2023-05-01 07:23
After reading all this subject, I thought, that's why all plastic reeds sound horrible, Oomps, I meant wonderful ! Oh, I mean, Porter, go to
bed !!!
Sorry !
A.
tiaroa@shaw.ca
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-05-01 11:54
In Michael Lowenstern's 2012 review of some of the synthetic reeds from some leading brands , he points out that the D'Addario reeds were readily shedding fibers . I don't know if those reeds are still on the market, or what health risks they may constitute or have constituted if any ,but the fact that they made their way onto the market at all suggests rather a lax and cavalier approach to the health and safety standards relating to synthetic reeds in general ......or so it makes me suspect .
Like I said before . It's one thing that a product contains harmful toxins and another thing to prove in court that a health issue derives specifically from exposure to that product ,rather than other possible sources of exposure to the toxin .This fact is no doubt often a consideration in the criteria applied when companies decide to launch a product, or at least there exist numerous examples that suggest that this has indeed been the case .
So to be somewhat distrustful is probably to be a realist .
Capitalism tends to be a gristmill whenever it can get away with it .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: super20dan
Date: 2023-05-02 19:18
mike loweinstien,s review of synth reeds is flawed because he choose not to include ones from companys who would not give him free samples! he left out bari and hartman fibereed -both who have been making synth reeds for decades. both are execellent in my opinion. esp if you want to play jazz
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-05-04 19:52
Hey !....that's Michael !
It's not that he chose not to include reeds that the companys didn't sent him free ........ It's that he didn't include reeds that the companies chose not to send him free .
Ha-ha-ha !
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: super20dan
Date: 2023-05-05 05:34
<there was no reason to have a slur on Mike L.s name. Please don't do it again.
Mark C., list moderator>
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Author: EricBlack
Date: 2023-05-05 18:20
Quote:
he lived up to his last name
Wow, I can’t believe someone would make such a bigoted statement on this forum.
If this was intended as a joke, no part of it is funny.
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-05-05 21:13
I just wish that there was a Michael Lowenstern to review every type of musical instrument on the market .
He offers praise were praise is due , and criticism were criticism is in order .
Above all he's stolidly outspoken,which takes some balls . A lot of reviewers pussyfoot around so as not to ruffle any feathers and that's offering something that's no use to anybody.
His opinions may not be Gods truth...but he has my respect and appreciation for what he does and I'm sure I'm not alone in that .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: pukalo
Date: 2023-05-12 09:51
I assume after very long periods of time the plastic reeds can become brittle. When I was in high school, my freshman year was the first year the school restarted the band program, which had been shut down many years prior, however all the old supplies were still in storage. One of the alto sax players found a very old plastic reed in the storage cabinets, and started playing on it for a couple months, before the reed snapped in half across the point where his lower jaw met the reed on the mouthpiece.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-05-12 16:56
No, the material of the Legere reed does NOT get brittle (at least over nine years...or so... that I have seen). It is a soft pliable polymer.
..........Paul Aviles
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Author: senexclarinetta
Date: 2023-06-20 20:49
There isn't going to be data on it yet, and it's going to be hard to distinguish in the wild given the amount of plastic everywhere. Still, I suspect that barring some unforeseen horror, it's probably okay. Much of the problem with plastics is due to it leaching into foods during storage (e.g. tomatoes eating away at containers) or heating. That's not likely to be a problem with a reed; and mouthpieces are already often plastic.
And seconding: no bigoted remarks on this forum, please!
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2023-06-20 21:56
senexclarinetta wrote:
> There isn't going to be data on it yet, and it's going to be
> hard to distinguish in the wild given the amount of plastic
> everywhere.
I don't know about "yet." Synthetic (aka known as "plastic") reeds have been around for a long time - people were using Fibracell reeds when I was a kid 60+ years ago. But you're right that it will be hard to get useful data specifically about plastic reeds' contribution to the problem - background plastic in the general environment plus the statistical rarity of plastic reed users among the general population that would make valid test subjects hard to track down.
>
> And seconding: no bigoted remarks on this forum, please!
Did you have any previous experience on this board in mind? If this is a concern, you can email me privately (click my screen name to get my email address).
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-06-20 22:08
Since this thread keeps coming up I’d like to (re-state?) state that there should be no question of safety of a complete plastic reed. No one is going to inhale a Legere.
Now I’m not sure I like any comparison to FibraCell either. That reed has layers or constituent parts that may over time wear or break away “perhaps” more a bodily threat than any piece of plastic thought of being.
I acknowledge that I have no knowledge of environmental issues with recycling but I doubt it would be any different than for plastic water bottles which are EVERYWHERE.
So maybe we can worry less about clarinet reeds for now.
………..Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2023-06-20 22:21
Paul Aviles wrote:
> Now I’m not sure I like any comparison to FibraCell either.
I only brought it up to counter senexclarinetta's thought that there woundn't be data *yet* - which I read as meaning that plastic reed use doesn't have enough history on which to base longitudinal studies.
I wasn't comparing more modern synthetics to Fibracell.
Karl
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2023-06-20 23:17
Since this thread was first created I think that Vandoren has added to their website on their synthetic product https://vkreeds.com/en/ that they "comply with the toy standard, chemical part, EU Directive 2009/48/EC, Annex II – Part III," and that "The material is also hypoallergenic."
So I guess these reeds are just "toys," and not for professional players.
Of course I kid.
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Author: senexclarinetta
Date: 2023-06-21 00:27
Karl, I had the newer Vandoren VKs in mind w.r.t. longitudinal studies. But you're right of course that synthetics have been around for a while, although the focus on microplastics is much more recent.
(The rest of my comment was directed to the slam on Lowenstern upthread, which I thought was uncalled for.)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-06-21 01:00
Yes sexexclarinetta, that looks very very bad indeed and I chose to ignore it. Hopefully, that was not what it looked like. Perhaps that poster can offer a clarification...........or KDK can bar that person from the Board.
Would super20dan (Dan Powell) care to clarify??????
...............Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2023-06-21 01:26)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2023-06-21 21:21
Paul Aviles wrote:
> Yes sexexclarinetta, that looks very very bad indeed and I
> chose to ignore it. Hopefully, that was not what it looked
> like. Perhaps that poster can offer a
> clarification...
The comment has been dealt with for now.
Karl (list co-moderator)
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Author: Evert
Date: 2023-12-21 18:52
Reading this thread I started thinking about reeds and helth.
And googling "organic reeds" seem to show only D'Addario has them.
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Author: super20dan
Date: 2023-12-22 00:54
lowenstein,s review of synthetic reeds was flawed as he only reviewed reeds he got for free. he left out several outstanding reeds that work particularly well on bass clarinet. hartman and bari
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