 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2023-03-10 08:22
I was wondering does anyone have any thought/information about Buffet B clarinets?
My belief is that there existence is contentious
Clarinets direct said they have sold about four of them.
I have what I believe is one. It is a Buffet full boehm, with a donut key. It is the same length as my Bb LeBlanc clarinet, which does not have a low Eb.
It is from either from 1904 or 1929. The serial number is 249T or 2491. I believe it looks like a T. It has the key work similar to horns sold in about 1930.
The other problem is that the bell is stamped with Carl Fischer New York, which from what I have read they sold Buffets from 1910 on.
Hence the conundrum regarding the date. Currently I think 1929.
I have now done tuning and voicing work on the horn. It came with a 67mm barrel. I am now using a 64mm barrel. The throat notes were always very sharp and other generally side and trill keys were flat. Having now corrected these problems it plays very well to excellently in tune as a B clarinet. Maybe a 63mm barrel in the future, but currently very happy with it.
Basically it was a dog's breakfast, like someone had tried to make it into something else.
If they do exist they strike me as almost like the old apprentice cabinet makers miniature furniture. The thought in my head was maybe Buffet took on a bunch of apprentices in the 30s as a result of the depression, who knows.
• Any info it would be much appreciated.
• Thoughts?
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Author: donald
Date: 2023-03-10 12:05
Bb clarinet at HP (high pitch). Simple as that. Buffet never made clarinets in B natural (or "H").
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2023-03-10 20:19
I personally don't believe they exist. I find it highly suspicious that the claimed B natural clarinets out there almost always have non-original barrels. It's not uncommon for old clarinets to have replacement barrels due to cracks but it's not so common that you would expect it that often. This combined with the fact that nobody has been able to come forward with even the tiniest shred of first hand evidence for modern B natural clarinets (excluding period reproductions) makes me suspicious of any instrument being offered for sale, especially when they are all coming from one dealer. I've been looking through old catalogs for years and while I've found evidence for some very rare instruments, like Boehm system bass clarinets in C and A and modern clarinet d'amour in G and Ab, I have not seen any evidence whatsoever for modern B natural clarinets. There's even some evidence for the almost mythical baritone saxophone in F!
In fact I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is, I will gladly give $50 to the first person that can provide clear scans from an original Buffet catalog that shows clear evidence that they advertised clarinets in B natural. Surely if one shop has come across 4 on their own this will be the easiest $50 someone has ever made, I would gladly pay that to be proven wrong about the existence of modern B natural clarinets.
-JDbassplayer
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Author: Johnny Galaga
Date: 2023-03-11 06:28
And how come we have transposing instruments? Like, why can't we just make everything in C and just call the notes what they really are?
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Author: graham
Date: 2023-03-11 17:44
Given the implicit criticism, I make the following observations
If these are sold as high pitch B flats it is a greater risk that a buyer will misunderstand the product and buy a useless instrument.
There is a 2 week approval period so that buyers can consider the practicality of their purchase.
In any case, given the pricing related to these items, most buyers will be in the sophisticated category and are taking an antiquarian rather than practical interest.
Whether category X or Y is applicable to the product isn’t all that important.
graham
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2023-03-12 21:24
The problem is that a high pitch Bb clarinet is not the same thing as a B natural clarinet. Most high pitch clarinets are only about a quarter tone sharp, however some older instruments from around the turn of the century can be significantly sharper (though still not a semitone sharp). As stated above however, using a shorter barrel and a modern small chamber mouthpiece can make these instruments play a full semitone sharper yielding a faux B natural clarinet. This is also true of other sizes of clarinet, for example I have in my shop a faux E natural clarinet.
Selling unmodified instruments as high pitch instruments is perfectly fine.
Selling modified clarinets than now play in B natural but disclosing the modifications and the original key is also acceptable.
But selling them as an "extremely rare Buffet Soprano Clarinet in the key of B Natural" without any evidence to back it up seems highly unethical.
>Whether category X or Y is applicable to the product isn’t all that important.
To a collector it absolutely is. Would a high pitch clarinet with a non original barrel really sell for $1000 if it was advertised accurately? I see them sell all the time on eBay for pennies on the dollar. Even for a very clean Buffet with all original parts they rarely sell over a few hundred.
-JDbassplayer
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2023-03-19 02:48
Attachment: WP_20230319_09_34_26_Pro.jpg (1883k)
Hi all,
Thanks for the respones. There are no suprises there they are all things I have thought about myself.
-Barrel lengths, does anyone know the barrel length on clarinets at this time?
Barrel on this horn was 67mm. As we know"generally currently 66-65mm.
As mentioned could be high pitch, totally get that. This would have been an upmarket horn shipped in to USA in the day.
-Does anyone know of any locations that were playing 'nearly a semitone' sharp high pitch?
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2023-03-19 03:04
Attachment: WP_20230319_09_59_43_Pro.jpg (1764k)
Hi didnt get to finish the last message. So see previous message attachment.
Interestingly the bell and body lengths are 1-2mm different in length between a current Bb and this older Buffet, of note is the Buffets has longer tenon joints than Leblanc, making the close enough to the same length.
Does anyone know the length difference it should be? (I understand there was a variety of high pitches)
Of note is that I have a number of high pitch Bbs and As. This clarinet is a different beast in comparison. Please see the attachment with the Buffet next to my high pitch A clarinet. The two photos highlight what I am saying. High pitch full Boehm should be the same/close to length of high pitch A.
High pitch full boehm should be longer than modern standard Boehm
Regarding catalogues. I have a custom-made Leblanc L300 3/4 boehm from the mid 90s No 560++. It will not appear in any catalogues. Custom orders do occur. Balancing that why the hell would anyone custom order a B clarinet.
I totally get opinions, does anyone have any facts?
Cheers Glen
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Author: donald
Date: 2023-03-19 05:09
Worth noting that (as well as different barrels) the bore AND tone hole size will influence the pitch of any given length. Therefore the LENGTH of the instrument is only really giving you a rudimentary and limited idea of what key/pitch the instrument should be at.
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2023-03-20 13:13
Ok so here we go
Benades book the fundamentals of musical acoustics and Backus's book the acoustical foundations of music have nothing of relevance to say.
Gibsons clarinet acoustics provides limited details on bore and length for the left joint. In the not overly relevant info it provides a variation of 6mm between an R13 and a recital left joint and barrel.
Ferrons book the clarinet revealed provides formulas for calculation of bore, frequency and joint length.
The simple and best answer came from Buffet's book from December 1962, 'Buffet Crampon'. They advise that they made/make clarinets to a maximum pitch of 452. This is a similar pitch to the highest listed pitch on wikipedia of 452.6. Happy to provide photos of the book
Cool so where does that get us to?
I luckily have the original if not very long barrel (67mm 66mm is my norm). The stamping matches the body. I have decided the clarinet is from 1904 as i have found photos of earlier clarinets stamped by Fischer and with this similar keywork.
From what I have read the early Buffet clarinets were small bore. Buffet went to a larger bore in about 1930 to compete with Selmer I used a playnick mouthpiece, which is a tad larger bore than the backun mouthpiece, which plays the best in tune on this clarinet so far and brings it up to pitch.
So with the 67mm barrel this clarinet plays at 464+ (for the long B) well above the pitch of any clarinet made by Buffet according to their own publications and wikis all-time high. This is not likely to be a note that will be generally affecteed by external inputs. It was a cold day and this was a cold play with no warm-up on the clarinet, so realistically the pitch would be higher. But I am making the worst case scenario for it being a B clarinet.
Currently normally I have been using a 64mm barrel, which while shorter is not obscene:)
The Gibson reference is quite weak, but certainly considering the lengths of Leblanc and Faux B clarinets in my photo are within a couple of millimeters it is a further strong argument. The length is a closer match than the R13 and a recital left joint and barrel Bb clarinets.
Thoughts?
To B or not to B?
That is the question?
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2023-03-21 00:44
Is this the book in question?
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=Y2xhcmluZXRwYWdlcy5uZXR8d3d3fGd4Ojc5YjRhOGVjYTlmYzFkNTg
These are the only 2 sections I could find regarding A=452Hz pitch (unless I missed something, please correct me if I am wrong):
"The firm therefore receives orders for instruments of which the pitch varies considerably, the extremes being usually 435 and 445... but certain countries do not hesitate to push up beyond 445, even to 450 or 452, although it is relatively rare"
"To-day, however, by means of a simple needle-index the electronic apparatus employed enables the testers to obtain instantaneously and automatically 25 different pitches, ranging from 428 to 452 vibrations."
The first seems to be referring to the present at the time of writing and does not necessarily seem to imply that Buffet never built instruments at a higher pitch, the earlier paragraph even reinforces the idea that pitch has varied quite a bit. By the second half of the 20th century high pitch as a concept was almost dead so it makes sense that Buffet would not see an order for an instrument tuned higher than A=452Hz at that time.
The second section is just referring to the tuner being used at the time.
To add to the discussion of bore size, I had 2 early 20th century Buffet Bbs in my shop recently, one from 1928 and one from 1909, both have a bore of 15.0mm.
-JDbassplayer
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2023-03-21 02:10
Hi JD, thanks for that as i have mentioned I am after some facts. This is a start:)
Of note is that the text at the bottom of page 26 states:
"Formerly the tuning of the instruments, according to all these differing degrees of pitch (435-452), necessitated the use in the factory of a large number of standard harmoniums"
It would 'seems' as though the factory was not set up to go above 452. After all a factory is a factory.
It seems to confirm that these pitches are what they adjusted clarinets to, though not unequivocal. Buffet uses the words "even to 452 which was relatively rare."
So with the 67mm barrel this clarinet plays at 464+ (for the long B) well above the pitch of any clarinet made by Buffet at the "relatively rare" pitch of (452) according to their own publications and wikis all-time high (452.6).
So your belief is that Buffet made a clarinet that had high pitch which was twice the ratio high pitch as their "relatively rare" 452 pitch clarinets?
The orchestra must have had exploding violins everywhere:)
It is like who would want a crazy B clarinet.
Maybe a heavy metal rock band from1900 that needed a B clarinet:)
E.g. who would want a crazy high-pitched clarinet that could not be played anywhere (and probably spend mozza dollars on it at the time.)
Maybe this is a 435 pitched B clarinet:), hence the full boehm system. It is well beyond any high pitch clarinet that I have. Though I do not have a huge collection. Most of these are English, who were renowned for pushing up the pitch.
I would again note the length of the full boehm body and bell is within 1-2mm of a current Bb clarinet. With the supplied 67mm barrel it would be virtually the same length. Well within the specs of contemporary Bb clarinets length.
As this is a unibody clarinet I cannot measure at the bottom of the top joint.
I will 'assume' happy' to be corrected, that the top section is cylindrical, as it is unlikely that a reamer existed to cope well with the length and possible tapers.
The clarinet measured 14.76 at the top of the top joint with digital caliper.
One could argue a smaller bore than your 15mm bore, for a smaller clarinet.
My bore measuring tool only goes to 10cm, when I get the chance I will give it a crack.
I say bring on the facts, that is what I am after
Cheers Glen
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2023-03-21 02:14
Hey, of note is the 435 was standard French pitch at the time, so 'more' likely to be that than 464+
Maybe an apprentice instrument makers miniature cabinet project?:)
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Author: ebonite
Date: 2023-03-21 18:17
Selling B-natural clarinets doesn't sound like a very sensible business plan to me.
Who would have been the target customers?
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2023-03-22 02:20
Hi, mainly trying to explore if there are any facts out there. I am not looking to sell, nor market a B clarinet. Rock clarinet in B does not seem to have taken off like I would have hoped:)
Re Targeting customers, I already have a quite successful business, but not selling B clarinets. Suprise, suprise:0 The number of people that would want such an instrument would likely be too small and crazy to count.
From what I have gathered so far there are high pitch instruments up to 452 and French pitch instruments at 435, and others. It seems likely that the two often get confused. From my experience I would see it as impossible to get an instrument to play in tune at 440, if it had previously been at high pitch 452, as on a Bb clarinet it is about 10mm difference.
Given that this clarinet plays at 440 with a 3mm shorter barrel. Subtracting 1mm seems to generally raise the pitch about 2 hertz. Three times equals six 435 to approximately 440.
It had significant tuning problems when I got it, with all the mouthpieces I have. Generally the contemporary Zinner blanks played the most in tune across the range and improving the inherently faultier notes with either the 67mm or 64mm barrels.
My suspicion is that the tuning was not fully worked through at the point of manufacture. Many of these problems have been significantly improved when either the 67mm or a 64 mm barrel re used. Hence the suggestion that it may have been an apprentice miniature.
It would seem likely that this clarinet was in French pitch which was used in a number of locations. It seems 435 was also used in parts of the US.
Thanks to all those involved in the discussion as it all moved it along.
So there is no clearance sale on B clarinets going on here:)
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2023-03-22 03:28
Which mouthpiece are you checking the tuning with? Do you have the original mouthpiece?
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2023-03-23 02:00
Hi good question.
thanks for the interest.
I don't have the original. I have a number of older mouthpiece wooden etc.
Long story personally I have been using a playnick. I have bought a pair of Opuses and the Playnick is a bit flat in the altisimmo (Its perect on my old L300) so I have bought a Backun Met with a Zinner blank. I am getting Ed Pillinger to reface a Hawkins Zinner blank mouthpiece to the same specs.
The bit you are after the Playnick is flat on the top end, less even tuning wise through the mid-range and seems to exaggerate the extremely sharp A, G# and G. With either the original 67 or the 64mm barrel.
The Backun is pretty good and workable in the altisimmo, smooths out the mid-range and settles the sharp notes.
With either the original 67 or the 64mm barrel.
I tried a number of options and so far the Zinner blank is winning and provides playable tuning. Obviously the throat notes will go sharper with a shoooort barrel:) I have currently left the throat note as bit sharp until I get the mouthpieces back.
An earlier suggestion about small bore mouthpieces (Zinner) pushing up the pitch holds true for the altissimo, but as above. It has not raised the overall pitch of the horn.
Tuning wise the horn had a number of tuning problems which many are now much better. They were clearly from the factory and some possibly after. The throat notes were always very sharp and other generally side and trill keys were flat and out of tune with the notes around them. My goal with all mods has been to fix the inherent tuning problems, you cannot make high pitch horn play functionally at low pitch.
Its a fun horn to play like a C clarinet in that they tooot out.:)
Cheers
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2023-03-25 08:17
It would appear that French pitch was relatively common across the US at about 1900.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/359119923_The_Historical_Development_of_Concert_Pitch_in_the_USA_Orchestras
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Author: donald
Date: 2023-04-04 07:44
Robot voice- THERE. IS. NO. B. CLARINET.
(There is also no sanctuary, but that's a different movie)
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2023-04-06 09:30
Hi Don,
The gimp/chupacabra/sasquatsch/beast of clarinets maybe.
I have taken the mickey out of the for and against arguments.
I am always happy to look at facts????
Please look at the evidence....
I am happy to review facts, simply saying no, (in a robot voice) does not enrich the conversation. Tell me, show me where I have got it wrong. As noted previously I have gone away and reviewed the information that yourself and others have provided.
You must have a rationale/facts otherwise...
Come over from New Zealand have a play:)
What I have is a clarinet with proportions/dimension/pitch with the original bell, unibody and barrel that aligns with a B clarinet in French pitch, 435.
Again I researched and provided the info that French pitch was used in USA. I did not make it up and did not even know about French pitch in the USA prior to this conversation.
I used a 3mm short barrel to bring it to 440 pitch. This would not happen if it was high pitched.
Following one of your previous response I reviewed the acoustic texts that i own and wrote roughly the following. Its proportional dimension are significantly closer than the examples of two current low pitch clarinets, as previously provided.
I have been asking for facts????
I have gone through the standard acoustic texts, buffet books, historical stuff, clarinet perfection, compared it to current clarinets and high pitch clarinets, provided photos.
Have a look at the photos the proportions/length for a full-boehm high pitched Bb are wrong. It should be the same/very close to the same length as a high-pitched A. The bell/body length is the same a low-pitched Bb, virtually identically.
Fact, it would not be this length if it was high pitched.
I would guess you have high pitch Bb clarinets, use a 3 mm short barrel see what pitch it goes to. That would be a great argument for you to present:)
We all know you cannot make a high pitch instrument play functionally at low pitch (or a semitone higher). The middle register octaves play at 435 with the 67mm and 440 with the 64 mm barrel. The throat notes which are bad with both barrels. There are some note that were flat, which are commonly flat on many clarinets. I just tuned, voice and corrected the symphony vii that I have, it had similar problems.
I agree a clarinet in:
-B in 452 high pitch is crazy.
-Bb pitched at 466+ is ludicrous as it could never be used in an orchestra.
-B at 435 is just about as wacky, guess what it looks like it is....
Happy to have it wrong please tell me what is wrong with the evidence I have provided so far. Happy to provide more photos....
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2023-04-06 10:23
Hers are some more photos of this clarinet between a high pitch A and Bb
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2023-04-06 11:04
Hi Don,
Here is my problem the difference in length between the high pitched A and the Faux B is 19mm.
There was 6mm difference between the previously described modern Bb recital and buffet clarinets top joint and barrel.
Triple that and we have the difference here across the full body length for the high pitched A and the Faux B.
The length of the Faux full boehm B is all but identical to a modern Bb.
I get the bore, tone hole and length impact on pitch. I mentioned I have most of the standard texts. So here is a clarinet with the same length and pitch. Of note is that some of the tone holes on the buffet are clearly larger, I have not measured them.
I also have a LL leblanc which is similar bore to the measured Buffet. (i have not measured the Buffet at the bottom of the top joint for obvious reasons) The Buffet is maybe 2mm longer. Again far closer in length than the modern Recital and Buffet where.
This is a very different clarinet.
As mentioned previously.
Of note is that I have a number of high pitch Bbs and As. This clarinet is a different beast in comparison. Please see the attachment with the Buffet next to my high pitch A clarinet. The two photos highlight what I am saying. High pitch full Boehm should be the same/close to length of high pitch A.
High pitch full boehm should be longer than modern standard Boehm.
The high pitch A is 19mm longer than my modern Bb/old buffet. The A is not going to come up to modern Bb pitch with a 3mm shorter barrel.
I would not claim any of these other clarinets as being anything other than high pitch.
A modern mouthpiece picks up the pitch of altissimo but it does not correct 19mm of body length. It does not convert any of my other clarinet to modern pitch or even come close.
While I have not played the Faux E mentioned above I would imagine it would be grossly out of tune with itself, this is not the case here. Very bad throat notes and standard out of tune body notes that can be fixed.
Facts are good Don:)
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2023-04-06 11:25
Hey just checked the length against my Pete Fontaine which is a 15mm bore. The Pete Fontaine is 5mm shorter. Given the larger bore, moderate size tone holes etc no surprise there. Well within the previously mentioned specs.
Exactly as we now Don the bore, tone holes etc ...
Happy to provide any details you like Don as the clarinet is here:)
Did you have a look at the article on French Pitch in the USA???
Interestingly I have never heard of anyone talk about French pitch, it seems to have been relatively common. I would guess there is a lot of confusion with high pitch
The problem is the proportions for a high pitch Bb are totally wrong and way outside what seems to be the norm for a high pitch Bb.
Here's a movie quote for ya.
I am not an animal:)
Come over to Australia I will buy you a beer to try it out.
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Author: donald
Date: 2023-04-06 16:51
Are your "hey don"s intended to address me?
You do realise that prior to the 1920s pitch was barely standardised and could in fact be different between different cities.
The length of instruments is immaterial as mouthpiece bore, instrument bore and tonehole size are just a few variables that influence pitch. Plus instruments may have the bore compromised due to age.
No luthier has produced B clarinets for sale (except for custom requests and historical copies for HIP performance) because next to no one would BUY THEM, and they are making instruments to make money, not just for fun.
btw not clear what "Exactly as we now Don the bore, tone holes etc ..." means.
< https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1c2OfAzDTI >
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2023-04-06 17:35
crazyclari,
Can you post pictures of the instrument, specifically the upper tenon?
-JDbassplayer
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2023-04-07 03:32
Hi all, I totally get that pitch was widely variable.
Don I am not having a crack, If my attempt to be light-hearted has offended my apologies:)
See next post for photograph.
I previously attached researched, published article on historical pitch in the USA. I don't know whether it was peer reviewed but would assume so. Have a read.
Clearly we have been discussing the factors you raise, they have not been ignored.
The determinant of pitch is basically the volume of the horn, which includes length, bore, tone holes, cut off points etc etc. The greatest determinant on volume will be length and bore, certain cut off points can mess with that. E.g. tone hole upper edges can cause 'disturbance' to the sound wave in essence creating variations in pitch.
I have read as much on the variations in pitch as is reasonable. The texts I quote from I own all of the original books and have read them, multiple times and others+
I have attached a photo of the Faux next to my current Bb (66mm barrel).
The Faux has the 67mm barrel and stands about 1mm taller. Fundamentally the horn is the exact same length as a current Bb.
I have previously measured the bore at the top, because it is a unibody. I have bore gauge that will go done 10cm. Unless I stick my clarinet in a tub of water this is the best I can do.
Soooo here is another/different review of the best facts I have at hand.
I have a LL medium bore (66mm barrel) which is about 2mm shorter and a Pete Fontaine, large bore (66mm barrel) which is about 5mm shorter.
Comparing the length to a LL which is 'likely' a similar bore. The LL would be 2mm shorter and result in what would similar dimensions, to within 1mm of the Faux B at 435
This assessment has considered bore and length which from what I have read are the key, not ultimate determinants. Given that there can be 6mm variation in contemporary clarinet top joint this is sooo close it doesn matter
This does not appear to be a high pitch horn, likely french pitch
Post Edited (2023-04-07 03:58)
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2023-04-07 03:32
Attachment: WP_20230406_18_37_51_Pro[1].jpg (1838k)
Hi all, I totally get that pitch was widely variable.
The determinant of pitch is basically the volume of the horn, which includes length bore tone holes etc.
Post Edited (2023-04-07 03:54)
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2023-04-07 04:08
Hi Don, this is agreeing with you, being collaborative in approach and inclusive:) Confirming we are of the same opinion. My apologies if there is some confusion
"Exactly as we now Don the bore, tone holes etc ..." means
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2023-04-07 09:03
Of note is that I own three custom made clarinets from Leblanc. One was made well after they stopped making the model. One was never technically made, took 3.5 years to get made and does not exist in any catalogue. Two have serial numbers that are totally wrong for their date of manufacture.
-Custom made clarinets do occur.
-In B is I agree, and have said so all along is nuts.
I have talked about apprentice miniature furniture as a comparison.
Please see (and read) all the previous messages for clarification.
Sorry to repeat myself
Facts are what is needed, opinions are great but...
I have tried to find factual evidence for the issues raised
Another angle difference in length between a 14.61mm bore clarinet and a 15mm bore clarinet is about 5mm by my calculations on my clarinets.
The faux B falls within those proportions for bore, length and pitch.
One argument could be that it is a super large bore e.g. like 15.3mm 10/10 and requires a cylindrical bore mouthpiece. That would be a great argument. My understanding is that the evolution of 10/10 resulted in that bore 'fairly recently ' and they would not have existed in 1904.
Happy for someone to provide factual evidence for variations on that. E.g. provide a clarinet length????
I have a couple more clarinets I can measure to provide further perspectives. If required.
One of my previous messages contains a photo of the requested tenons. They appear to be original and correct in length.
Ferron who provides the best information on tone holes speaks in relation to the size location and resultant pitch and that they can effect other notes. They can also impact on nodes and anti nodes. I could not identify anywhere the tone hole volume impact on the capacity and pitch of the instrument, it seems to be implied.
The volume contained in the clarinet give it its virtues. He then goes in to details. Regarding nodes and anti-nodes in relation to tuning
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2023-04-07 17:10
Sorry to clarify I mean the tenon with the barrel off.
I’d also be interested in seeing how long the bell is compared to other bells. I worked on an early Buffet full Boehm that had a very short bell.
I’m not doubting that custom models exist, I’m just doubting that one would need tuning work to play properly in tune. For example I have a Buffet bass clarinet in the key of C. Everything on it is well in tune as you would expect for a custom instrument from Buffet. The problem is you don’t just need to explain the existence of one B natural clarinet, you need to explain the existence of 10+ alleged B natural clarinets (that I could find claims for online) and my unusual E natural clarinet I mentioned earlier. I don’t think the furniture apprentice theory really makes sense, with clarinets you need to have jigs for every key and essentially have a full production line set up for each instrument, instruments of this era were almost never made by one person. Why would Buffet spend the resources making a whole production line for an instrument they couldn’t sell?
On the flip side to prove it is a high pitch Bb clarinet all we need to say is that at some point in some places high pitch was close to a semitone sharp which is not a stretch given how much pitch varied. For example Chorton pitch is A=466 and is used in some period performance settings.
-JDbassplayer
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2023-04-07 17:12
Is there any way to seek out the provenance of the particular instrument? I can't quickly imagine any musical need for a B clarinet, so it might not have had many owners. The purpose for making it would be, what, to fill out a collection? A collector going (expensively) out of their way to have a B clarinet made would probably already have a large collection of instruments. Subsequently there may have been a publicized auction or estate sale.
Absent a specific origin story, the technical data seems inconclusive. The historical variance of design specs and manufacturing quality apparently encompasses the narrow pitch distinction involved.
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Author: ContraClarinet
Date: 2023-04-08 06:53
Hi all,
I haven't posted on the BBoards before, but I figured I might be able to contribute to this discussion. I also own a potential B clarinet- it seems to play in Bb at around A=464Hz. Its serial number is 777P, which dates it to 1902. It has its original bell, which has both the Buffet-Crampon logo and an H. Bettoney marking stamped on it, as well as its original barrel. I don't know if its mouthpiece is original, but its ligature and wooden mouthpiece cap match exactly in color to the wood and keywork on the clarinet itself. Lining it up to my Yamaha CSVR and Buffet E11 Bb clarinets, they are both longer than the 1902 Buffet.
I have not been able to get the original mouthpiece to play with the reeds I have on hand, but using my Vandoren M15 mouthpiece I can get it to play decently well. The only notes that have significant tuning issues are low E and F, and clarion low B and C. Everything else plays in tune, all the way up to double C.
I'd love to help figure out whether B clarinets really exist in any way that I can. I'd be happy to provide pictures, videos of the clarinet being played, measurements, or whatever else if anyone would like them.
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2023-04-08 11:19
Hi I was not clear the attachments on the 13/9/2023 at 2.48 have the buffet and leblanc exposed tenon side by side. as mentioned the buffet tenon is about 1+mm longer than the leblanc which is pretty normal. Tenon is orignal.
Regarding provenance I bought this horn as a blind purchase off that site. The seller knew nothing. They could not tell the brand as the entire horn was covered in so much mould. It was clearly a full boehm buffet with a donut key. I paid the normal couple of hundred dollars and thought likely it was high pitch and if low pitch better still.
I have yet to write to Buffet to see if they have any facts and respond.
This has a very short bell measuring 99mm in length
The specs I provide while not great leave a very small window for what it could be. I am happy to improve/modify any thoughts with any suggestions, please suggest away as I want to build up information
-So far the bore is about 14.7 (measured at the top as it is unibody)
-The length is the same as an Opus /symphony 7
-Importantly the buffet is a couple of millimetres longer than the LL I have
which is a similar bore
The horn is well above 452 which the 1962 Buffet states was rarely produced.
Likely it is at/above 466+ which has been recently mentioned.
This is basically hitting French pitch which I have described and was common in America at the time. I believe there is some confusion with horns that are high pitch and french pitch
The original barrel is 67mm with that barrel the horn is a B clarinet in French pitch 435 again note this is not high pitch
With a 64 mm barrel it plays at 440. A millimetre for 2 hertz approximately
I have provided photographs of the horn between a high pitch Bb and A. If the horn as a high pitch full boehm it would be the same/similar to the high pitch A in length. It aint in that paddock.
Aways open to facts and thoughts:)
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2023-04-08 11:38
Hi sorry to write another one.
Regarding custom made clarinets. Simply I have been a repairer for a long while i have tuned and voiced clarinets for a long while.
As has been mentioned these places are factories. The turn out a certain number of units each day.
As we all know clarinets have inherent tuning problems. Most clarinets I have seen have faults that should have been corrected at the factory.
I have a custom-made Eb as previously mentioned it took 3.5 years for them to make it. I had a dealership at the time and I wanted what I wanted.
So I get this clarinet there are clear tuning problems my gut response is they just wanted to get it done. I have fixed the problems and done some tweaking and its an absolute cracker.
The sympohny vii I compare the Buffet to was flat as a tack in the top register. The tenon ring had not been cut in to the lower joint properly and it lengthened the middle joint and I then adjusted the tuning on the higher notes. Of note is that they were flat in the lower registers as well. This was their premiere model in the day. Now it is a cracker horn.
These are very similar problems to the old Buffet I talk about. I am probably a fussy...
I have a couple of Opuses and they had similar spits and spats of similar/same problem, now fixed.
I have a custom made L300 from about 40 years ago. I used to call the side keys my universal keys as they were half-way between the pitch they should have been, now fixed.
I just had a basset clarinet made by Stephen Fox, magnificent work.
Post Edited (2023-04-08 12:06)
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2023-04-08 11:50
Regarding apprentice instruments. I worked with a repairer from England who had done the full course decades ago. Guess what he had to do for project, make a clarinet from scratch:)
The pitch issue is one to figure out????
From that 1962 Buffet book, which I am not claiming to be the ultimate evidence. Buffet basically say they "previously tuned instruments from 435 to the very rare pitch of 452. They say they only had the tuning equipment for those pitches. By 1962 they were using a Stoboconn to tune instruments. The Stroboconn was invented in 1936 by Conn in America.
Soooo it would seem 'unlikely' (but not impossible) that Buffet was building horns outside this tuning range.
I have provided a link in a previous email covering the use of French 435 pitch in USA. It seems to have been reasonable common.
Feel free to let me know where my technical info is weak as I am happy to tear into the info I have so far
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2023-04-08 12:12
Hi Contra,
Happy to discuss and share notes. For me this is about just trying to figure out what this thing is:)
If it is ultra-high pitch, Buffet likely did not make ultra-high pitch horns
Ultra-high pitch in an orchestra which is the most likely place for a horn like this is crazy, the violins would explode.
If it's in B, who would want a B clarinet
French 435 seem to make the most sense to me.
Feel free to write
We can share notes on contras as well
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2023-04-08 16:06
The short bell definitely explains the length. I would maybe compare the lengths without the bell to give a more accurate idea of how they compare.
Again I have an Eb clarinet tuned a semitone sharp. Very high tuning standards exist and we have direct evidence of that. Not all clarinets were played in orchestras.
-JDbassplayer
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Author: donald
Date: 2023-04-08 16:43
Hey JD, I have an "E clarinet" too (I recall mine is by Buffet, but I'd have to check as there are almost 100 clarinets in this flat...). We could get together and play all the duos that composers wrote for the E clarinet.
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2023-04-09 04:57
Hi JD, Thanks for the photo.
Thanks for asking about the the length of the Faux B without the bell and barrel. It is 476mm.
I have attached a photo of the Faux B between a high pitched A and Bb. As you can see in the photo the length of the Faux B is significantly shorter than the high pitch A, and as you would expect longer than the Bb.
A portion of the bell bore will provide the cut-off point. So the dilemna of no bell is it will also effectively shorten the bore length.
Totally agree with the following
"Very high tuning standards exist and we have direct evidence of that. Not all clarinets were played in orchestras."
Buffet basically say they "previously tuned instruments from 435 to the very rare pitch of 452. They say they only had the tuning equipment for those pitches. By 1962 they were using a Stoboconn to tune instruments.
It would appear that French pitch was relatively common across the US at about 1900.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/359119923_The_Historical_Development_of_Concert_Pitch_in_the_USA_Orchestras
By the way how well in tune does your Faux E play?
I have a low pitch simple system I am waiting for pads for.
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2023-04-09 05:09
I have a couple of Leblanc alto clarinets (now that is crazy) One made in 1970 and the other made in about 1973. The one made in 1970 is beautifully in tune. The one made in 1973 has a lower register key tube and was pretty crazy tuning wise. It now plays beautifully in tune. Probably comes down to how much shiraz was drunk on the day:)
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2023-04-10 03:10
Maybe we need to have common ground what high pitch is?
440-442 low pitch even though I hate 442.
435 French pitch, a well recognised and used pitch.
Everything else I am happy to call high pitch.
Thoughts?
So as mentioned this clarinet is tuned to 435, so depending on how we think it is either a:
-Bb clarinet tuned all but one semitone high to 435 (if we are talking 440)
or a
-B clarinet tuned to 435
-As mentioned previously, Comparing the length to a LL which is 'likely' a similar bore. The LL would be 2mm shorter and result in what would similar dimensions, to within 1mm of the Faux B at 435. At 440 identical length.
This assessment has considered bore and length which from what I have read are the key, not ultimate determinants. Given that there can be 6mm variation in contemporary clarinet top joint this is sooo close it doesn't matter.
This does not appear to be a high pitch horn, likely French pitch.
Slap Occam's razor on this one and see where we go:)
I have a couple of books of D clarinet duets if you need:) by Strauss I think:)
Donald you must have a consensus on how many of your clarinets are in French pitch, that could provide a proportion on how many are out there?
Thoughts?
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