 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: BarrelOfMonkeys
Date: 2023-03-22 00:49
Hi. I'm interested in perspectives from people who got PAST THE LEARNING CURVE for double lipping or single lipping. Too many players only go through a fraction of the learning curve and feel qualified to offer their opinions. What they're ACTUALLY giving their non-expert "advice" about is their own growing pains. It's just not helpful. Your lips don't hurt if you've gone through the learning curve. You've also probably practiced standing up and have become good at that.
I especially welcome opinions from those who have gone through the learning curves of both double lipping and single lipping, because they can contrast and compare. I'm a returning student who decided to re-start clarinet studies with double lip because WTFNMAW.
Thanks, and... go!
Tom
The Cosmic Pipeazoidist
And people say I monkey around...
Post Edited (2023-03-22 00:57)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-03-22 02:15
I played double lip for a few years mainly because my teacher John Yeh plays with a double lip. As a "single lip" player who used more force when playing prior to that switch I'd say what you get is a more "supple" sound. It encourages more subtlety and a smoother, more cohesive sound overall.
What I'd say about that now, MANY MANY years later now that I use virtually no force at all and can switch back and forth at will.......because I can, is that it is more important to find a way to play WITH NO FORCE (well that's virtually no force). So if there is discomfort while trying to switch from single to double lip then it is NOT worth putting yourself through that at all. It is more a whole approach to playing. Players like Marcellus and Stephen Williamson have developed their own style based on a more aggressive approach and double lip is simply not in the cards.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: BarrelOfMonkeys
Date: 2023-03-22 04:16
OK. Now my question for you is, what exactly is "force" in this sense? And does one method or the other favor it in some way?
Tom
The Cosmic Pipeazoidist
And people say I monkey around...
Post Edited (2023-03-22 04:20)
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2023-03-22 06:18
BarrelOfMonkeys wrote:
> OK. Now my question for you is, what exactly is "force" in this
> sense? And does one method or the other favor it in some way?
>
>
> Post Edited (2023-03-22 04:20)
I can't speak for Paul as he first introduced the word "force" here. That said, IMHO, force here (at least my way of seeing it) is the application of more energy to achieve a clarinet objective than others have expended to get no less impressive results.
I suppose that force could apply to anything that exerts pressure on the clarinet from wind to embouchure to fingers to mindset to posture...etc.
...And does one method or the other favor it in some way..I'll say yes--although my choice of word wouldn't be "favor," but "allow."
Stronger reeds, stronger bite, more open mouthpieces...too painful for most double lip players.
I hesitated in initially responding initially to this thread because unlike Paul I am not completely past the "pain," if not the "learning" curve and chose to equate the two. There are things I can't do, or do as well double lip, like play well near the upper C7 range, or circular breath.
The difference in my sound between double and single lip is very little, I believe in part to what I've learned playing double lip, and applying what I like about my sound to single lip: like keeping my upper mouth palette as open as possible--although I like my double lip sound best.
I'm sort of, I say "tongue in cheek," (pun intended, not literally) part of the Ricardo Morales school of thought on double lip: https://youtu.be/VZUOfN-wQEY
But at this point most of my pain isn't biting on my upper lip but muscle fatigue for employing muscles not used (as much) in single lip play.
~~~~~~
All this said, I don't know that the acronym WTFNMAW stands for and I'm guessing that the initial part of it isn't repeatable: your justification for reentering this world of clarinet with both sets of teeth covered.
I'm not sure why you'd impose that on yourself.
You enjoy a self proclaimed propensity to monkey around. I'd suggest, especially initially, that an etude book, metaphorical "horse blinders" and a metronome will take you father, faster. That said small experimentation with play that doesn't compromise the former certainly has its place in our developing the best version of our clarinet selves.
Post Edited (2023-03-22 06:21)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-03-22 06:29
It does mean several different things. For me, it was non productive biting. For Williamson I think it just means that he works pretty hard when he plays, always working himself into fairly heavy perspiration. There was a podcast where he talked about that and the advice he got from both Nuccio and Morales. He said it took him a year and a half to get the right amount of energy to get the right sound from the Selmer Signature.
For me, I found all that almost unbelievable that anyone would want to work harder to play clarinet. But this came from Williamson himself and he's the principal of the Chicago Symphony and I'm not.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: BarrelOfMonkeys
Date: 2023-03-22 07:29
Paul, does that extra biting allow for extra passion in playing in one way or another?
Tom
The Cosmic Pipeazoidist
And people say I monkey around...
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Author: BarrelOfMonkeys
Date: 2023-03-22 08:14
SecondTry: You got the first four letters of the acronym correct.
Tom
The Cosmic Pipeazoidist
And people say I monkey around...
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2023-03-22 10:33
I start most of my beginning students with double lip. I play mostly single lip but am comfortable playing double for extended periods as long as I haven't neglected it. I'd like to have equal endurance with both and am getting closer.
There will be some mild discomfort when playing double if you are unaccustomed to it, but there should be no pain. Pain likely means you are biting (curing biting is often a motivation to experiment with double lip) or trying to play on a set-up that is too resistant to be appropriate for double lip playing. You will also bruise your top lip pretty easily from overuse until you've built up some endurance over the course of some weeks or months. Once your top lip is tired you will start to bite to maintain sound, just as one does with the lower lip when it is tired. Instead of giving up for the day, one can just switch back to single lip and carry on.
By the way, it is still possible to bite with double lip once the top lip is conditioned - it just seems to happen to a lesser degree.
Starting with just a few seconds of low notes and building slowly from there is what most people seem to need to acclimate. Almost all of my students can comfortably play their full range double lip and use double lip regularly during warm-ups. Many play double lip full time, including in marching band.
In my own playing I sometime value stability most (single lip) and other times want more shades of tonal color available, for which I find double lip very helpful.
Anders
Post Edited (2023-03-22 10:36)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-03-22 15:32
I really enjoy this dissertation on double lip playing that I heard about through the forum.
https://urresearch.rochester.edu/institutionalPublicationPublicView.action?institutionalItemId=35968
It's a series of interviews with professionals who play double lip, and really beautifully written.
The pdf is at the link at the top.
I've converted the scanned typwritten document to a word doc for publication online, with permission from the author's wife and the University of Rochester, but haven't yet found someone who is able to host it online. Hoping it might go up on the BBoard at some point, with help from Mark Charette.
Post Edited (2023-03-22 15:41)
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2023-03-22 17:46
I started with single lip many years ago, and then a little over a decade ago I switched to double.
During the switch, it took about a year for my upper lip to completely stop hurting when I played. Now I can feel a rough little callus just inside it similar to the one inside my lower lip.
It takes practice standing up to play double lip that way. There's some refinement of how you manipulate the clarinet while playing needed. I've soloed standing in front of the band several times playing double lip. (No neck strap.) I recall someone on this forum mentioned having played double lip in marching bands as no big deal.
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Author: Hunter_100
Date: 2023-03-22 17:53
I started out double lip in 6th grade only because no one told me how to make an embochure and it seemed natural to me. I had to switch to single lip in high school when I got braces because the sharp metal hurt my lips too much. I promptly developed a bit of a biting problem (that mouthpiece has some decent sized teeth marks). I switched back to double lip after the braces came off and have been double lip now for 20+ years. Like othere have said, I sometimes will switch back to single lip if I am getting tired or i have to play a really technical passage. I like my sound much better in double lip. Although my stacatto is a little cleaner in single lip. I think my jaw moves just a little when I tongue and single lip masks that motion. On my A clarinet this stacatto jaw motion sometimes comes out as grunting in the lower clarion, I am still working that out.
One big advantage I see of double lip is you won't drift sharper as you get tired from biting. I find I am always more in tune towards the end of rehearsal than other clarinets.
I play eb for the past 2 years double lip as well. I really see a difference in tone there. If you bite on eb, you really get a thin nasally sound. I can play up to A7 on eb double lip so altissimo is not a problem.
Also, another huge benefit of double lip is you will stop banging the keys while you play. Your finger motion will get much smoothing and more fluid because jerky fingers will knock the mouthpiece around in your mouth and you will not like it.
Post Edited (2023-03-22 18:10)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-03-22 18:35
For me there is still a bit of mystery to the various classical clarinet tones. Part of the problem for me is that it was not possible for me to hear the gamut of players under all different conditions (or close to each other in time).
For example though I've heard Robert Marcellus and Larry Combs live, and relatively close (small recital halls). Their sound was almost spooky in that it seemed to completely take over the space even at very low dynamic levels. Their sounds in context within the orchestra and on recordings goes without question. Then there is Drucker whose sound is thinner in recording in a way that I found less exciting. However when I finally heard him live in a smaller venue his sound came off much more mellow and refined. I never heard how he played with regard to embouchure but he always said clarinet playing was really easy for him.
Finally you have playing like the great Harold Wright which was so light and could do so many things effortlessly in recordings. He was famously a double lip player that I never had the chance to hear live. Then there is Dale Fedele whose recorded sound seems very similar but I don't know what approach he uses. He's pretty accessible though so I think you could ask him.
So the question is: Is it necessary to expend all that extra energy in embouchure (and air too) to obtain that last bit of "room altering sound?" For some great players the answer is yes. But is it worth it? Each player must answer that for themselves.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: brycon
Date: 2023-03-22 23:08
Quote:
I especially welcome opinions from those who have gone through the learning curves of both double lipping and single lipping, because they can contrast and compare.
It doesn't matter.
If you're setting out on relearning the clarinet, don't worry about it and just get to work on what does matter: playing phrases singingly, having good intonation and rhythm, etc.
What type of embouchure you use or even what etude and scale books you use doesn't matter. It's like fussing over high-end ski bindings when you can't even parallel ski: again, it doesn't matter.
My advice, as someone with very well-developed single- and double-lip embouchures, would be to think of your music education journey in terms of a triage system: 1.) must know, 2.) should know, and 3.) could know. Most the advice here centers around number 3. A clarinetist, for instance, could know that there have been throughout history different approaches to embouchure and he or she could perhaps try some out. Playing singingly, in tune, and in rhythm, however, are must know things. And until a clarinetist can do these things, single-lip versus double-lip, just like Baermann scales versus Klose scales, doesn't matter. And until students reorient their thinking about must know, should know, and could know things and prioritize properly, they'll remain in a state of arrested development.
Post Edited (2023-03-22 23:09)
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Author: Ed
Date: 2023-03-23 05:28
"Players like Marcellus and Stephen Williamson have developed their own style based on a more aggressive approach and double lip is simply not in the cards."
I know that Williamson seems to like having a fair amount of resistance, based on interviews I have heard of him and his discussions of his set up. A colleague went to a workshop where Williamson said that most every player is using reeds that are too light.
FWIW-Marcellus did not believe in a resistant set up or working too hard with the embouchure. He did experiment with using double lip.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-03-23 06:21
I can't honestly counter directly regarding Marcellus. However there are some key points. He did have a brain tumor resting upon his optic nerve (NO ONE has said that his playing was the cause) and his doctors advised him to stop playing or the pressure that he built up in his head would exacerbate the condition and cause him to go blind. That was the reason he retired early from the Cleveland Orchestra.
When seeing him play in his masterclasses given at Northwestern during the Summer, I noticed he would take a moment to "set" before playing, sorta like a power lifter before a dead lift.
Then there is the mention here in this video which I should have posted earlier here but I didn't want to OVER use this video (or maybe I have already).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYBzMOm7EJQ
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: hans
Date: 2023-03-23 07:20
One benefit of learning double lip that I haven't seen mentioned is that it would make it easier to learn to play oboe or bassoon.
Hans
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Author: Ed
Date: 2023-03-23 14:57
I believe that Marcellus took time to set his embouchure, but not because it was high pressure. In the time when I studied with him I had the opportunity to play his set up and he played mine, so I have a sense of where his comfort level was. I recall in a masterclass there was a student who had a fairly resistant set up and when Marcellus tried it he questioned the student on how it was possibly to play that. My understanding was that his retirement was due to Diabetic retinopathy.
Post Edited (2023-03-23 16:05)
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Author: BarrelOfMonkeys
Date: 2023-03-24 07:20
Rock.
Tom
The Cosmic Pipeazoidist
And people say I monkey around...
Post Edited (2023-03-27 19:51)
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2023-03-24 08:53
BarrelOfMonkeys,
Although I'm not in that group of players who "got PAST THE LEARNING CURVE for double lipping or single lipping", when Hunter_100 made the statement: "One big advantage I see of double lip is you won't drift sharper as you get tired from biting. I find I am always more in tune towards the end of rehearsal than other clarinets", I thought of an experience I had around 35 years ago that might be of interest to you and others.
While practicing at home, I decided to hook up my Korg meter to see how my tuning was. I discovered that I was playing quite flat. For some unknown reason, I decided to try a double lip embouchure just to see what would happen. To my amazement, my fairly extreme flatness was completely gone and I was playing "in tune".
Allow me to put my response under the heading of...
FWIW.
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Author: BarrelOfMonkeys
Date: 2023-03-24 14:46
Dan,
The hardest part about double lipping for me was squeezing too hard. No squeezing, air is sealed, horizontal mouth is tight without adding pressure to the reed, and boom. Same embouchure perfectly in tune for at least 2 registers. Maybe having a Lyrique with a Vocalise H mouthpiece has something to do with that, too. The mouth doesn't have to do anything for good intonation. I just check a few specific notes before I play anything. Low D sharp and D tend to go flat if my embouchure is off, so I'll toot parts of G minor to be sure.
Tom
The Cosmic Pipeazoidist
And people say I monkey around...
Post Edited (2023-03-24 14:48)
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Author: BarrelOfMonkeys
Date: 2023-03-26 10:21
I'm taking back some of my comments. I think I'm destined to be a lip traitor... or a double agent lipper... or an ambilipper... or whatever you call it. And one thing I've noticed: Practicing double lip is amazing practice for single lip. I get better at double, and that automatically makes me better at single. A lot of it has to do with biting and reed squeezing. It brings a new grace and mindfulness to the single lip embouchure. Kinda yogic.
Tom
The Cosmic Pipeazoidist
And people say I monkey around...
Post Edited (2023-03-26 15:25)
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