 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: exclarinetist01
Date: 2023-01-17 09:25
Hello all - I remember this site from many years ago when I was studying clarinet in college. I've since moved to another career, though I still have my clarinets and will take them out to play occasionally. I'm glad to see the community is still active.
I've been wondering about something and figured this was the best place to get informed thoughts. I hope this isn't too off topic.
My son is in fourth grade and will have the opportunity to join the school band this fall. I haven't pushed him to play clarinet, but of course he has heard me play before and has heard all my stories about my various experiences as a musician and the friendships I made along the way.
I've inquired if he has any interest in the clarinet and he seems to be leaning towards other instruments because he says there are no other boys who play clarinet at his school! I was a bit shocked to hear that. I had a somewhat unusual experience as a young kid playing clarinet because I went to schools without band programs until the second part of high school. I remember being one of the few males in the section, but I was too much of a band geek to care I suppose.
I did notice that as early as high school, the all-state bands and summer music camps I attended had mostly males in the clarinet section. Then at the conservatory I attended, it was almost all men in the clarinet section. To say nothing of professional orchestras, where sections seem to be very male dominated.
So what gives? How did clarinet end up being more female dominated at the elementary and middle school level, and then going in the opposite direction as clarinet players get older and more advanced? I can't think of this being the case with any other instrument. Perhaps flute to some extent, although I noticed far more women in flute sections in conservatory and professional orchestras.
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2023-01-17 09:33
In my 19 years as a Band Director I would agree that there were quite a few more girls on clarinet than boys. Way more so with flutes (maybe one boy on occasion in the band). In college maybe it leaned more toward more males. In the professional bands/orchestras I've played in I'd say it's pretty close to 50-50.
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-01-17 18:47
H exclarinetist01 ,
I am a Mum of a similarly aged child too, and I know what you mean about this.
I get the feeling that choice of instrument for young players is a real minefield. My son and I very much chose our first instruments on the appearance of the instrument, rather than on whether it was feasible to play or nice to listen to, which seems like kind of a problematic start.
My son got hooked on the French horn when he first clapped eyes on it a very young child. It's a difficult instrument to play though, and good teachers are hard to find, so that he has struggled to make progress.
I kind of wish that there was a way to let kids hear an instument before they see it, and also to give them a better idea of which is actually feasible for their skillset and body type.
Jennifer
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2023-01-17 23:16
Jennifer, When I taught beginner band, myself and the other staff visited each elementary school and demonstrated each instrument (except drums.....). Then each kid could choose what they want. If there was some indecision they were able to try the two choices and then decide (this was done at a later meeting when music companies were at the school to rent/sell instruments). We rarely had a situation where a kid couldn't play what they chose (assuming adequate home practice...). When it did happen there were ways to let them switch and eventually catch up to their peers. I have bought clarinets privately myself in music stores where they let me try a number of them before buying. I imagine they would be more than happy to accommodate private customers' kids.
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-01-17 23:33
There is definitely the tendency to assign gender to instruments. Maybe instruments that play higher notes harken to higher voices that we associate with women being sopranos....except for the trumpet which is seen as masculine.....all those movies of Roman Legions I suppose.
Some of the better music programs offer an introduction of an instrument via a "petting zoo" so that students can feel the instrument and even have the rudiments of producing a tone on them BEFORE they chose an instrument.
One other consideration (and I'm somewhat serious about this) is size. Every time some tuba player or bass trombone player had a headache over how their instrument was transported in a band I was with, someone inevitably said, "we all picked our instruments in high school!"
Think about that before you pick the sousaphone.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: davidjsc
Date: 2023-01-18 01:43
When I was in elementary school and we started band ca. 1978, girls were usually pushed towards woodwinds while boys towards brass. Trumepts and saxophones seemed to be a mix, with girls leaning toward alto and boys towards tenor sax. My impression back then was probably first and foremost simply due to carrying weight for instruments, as most kids at our elementary school had walks of around a mile or so. Can't imagine many 10 or 11 year-old girls would want to lug about a trombone or euphonium home on foot.
DSC
~~ Alto Clarinet; Bass Clarinet; B-flat and C Boehm Clarinets; Albert C Clarinet; Oboe ~~
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Author: fernpod
Date: 2023-01-18 02:07
Is it wrong to mention that boys starting clarinet amid mostly girls in the section might be uncomfortable for the lad until about 8th grade until suddenly, he realizes, "Hey. I am in the clarinet section, and I hang with girls that I've gotten to know and like."
Nature's attractions might be facilitated for a wise and patient boy.
fernpod
Geezer clarinet hobbyist
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Author: exclarinetist01
Date: 2023-01-18 02:19
Thanks for the thoughts everyone. It seems that the idea of clarinet as a female gendered instrument at the elementary and middle school level has endured. But what surprises me is how this seems to flip completely at the highest levels of clarinet playing. A quick search of the Big 5 orchestras plus the orchestras of Los Angeles, San Francisco, and DC (National) reveals only one female clarinet player among all of them! Which fits with my experience at the conservatory I attended, where the clarinet section was overwhelmingly male. Even the bassoon sections in the major orchestras seem to be far more balanced despite the fact that in my experience, bassoon was more "male gendered" than clarinet starting out in school. I wonder what could be causing this strange phenomena. In any case, perhaps it will give my son a bit of hope to not give up on the clarinet, should he be interested in playing our wonderful instrument.
Post Edited (2023-01-18 02:21)
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Author: Chris_C ★2017
Date: 2023-01-18 16:18
An interesting discussion! In the community bands and orchestras I play in (in the UK) the gender balance is close to 50:50 for most instruments. The big exception is flute (where male flautists are rare), I do get the feeling that clarinet is becoming slightly dominated by women, but it's not a strong effect - and certainly I don't think male players feel any discomfort. Perhaps the male players have a bigger tendency to drift into saxophones? Saxophones and all the brass are pretty well balanced - although I only know one female tuba player. Percussion is well balanced too.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-01-18 17:22
Hi Tom,
That does sound like wonderful system you have there. There was nothing like that in my school, or my son's.
I'm glad that it's possible to change instrument. I think that's one of the most important things I've learned in recent years.
Jen
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Author: DougR
Date: 2023-01-19 02:53
I'm old enough to remember when all the major orchestras were all-male (except Doriot Anthony Dwyer on flute in Boston). And in the time that's passed since then, I've become aware of so many factors influencing WHY youngsters choose a particular instrument that I frankly wouldn't be able to guess a primary motivating factor--"all of the above," maybe, to greater or lesser extent depending on the player and situation.
(Parenthetically I'd just mention that there are so many claims on a kid's time these days, and so much music on social media that appears to arise merely at the touch of a button, that for a young player to decide to study an instrument AT ALL is kind of miraculous.)
I'm really curious about what sustains young players in their desire to get better, to keep practicing. Jen mentioned French horn, and the phenomenon of her son seeing the instrument and going "Yeah, I want to play THAT." I don't teach music, but if I did, I'd be wondering "How do I help the student sustain his/her interest in the instrument through the hard patches, when it's so easy to give up?" (especially key on French horn, which is legendarily tough to master.)
One way, maybe, is YouTube. My own experience is being regularly inspired by individual players I see there. I'm also becoming aware of the inspirational value in deliberately seeking out YT channels hosting such players; I'm finding it makes my daily practicing more attractive. I'm beginning to regard that sort of "searching out" on YT as an important ELEMENT of my practice time, too, rather than separate from it.
For instance, a YT search of the words "French horn" yields a whole bunch of orchestral horn soloists, a number of explainer videos, and some clips of French-horn-only chamber groups playing. (My own principal instrument is bass clarinet, and that's true for the bass also.) The clips communicate not only stellar playing, but also the players' attitudes and approach to the instrument, AND! maybe awaken one to the possibility of seeking out playing opportunities for French horn in an ensemble (brass quintet for example) in one's own community.
(I do this kind of "surfing YouTube" myself on a daily basis, by the way; from time to time I need to 'artificially' amp up my interest in practicing with doses of dazzling professional playing and YT is a great place to get it.)
Also, for anyone who's unfamiliar, another source of inspiration I find is ScoringSessions.com, a photographic (and sometimes video) archive of actual film scoring sessions---VERY revealing in terms of what an orchestra of 'the best of the best' looks like. (I look at these photos, and immediately get the thought "Hmm, gotta go practice!")
Here's a link to a John Williams scoring session for Star Wars "The Force Awakens." Fun stuff! (Count the French horns!) https://www.scoringsessions.com/2016/02/29/john-williams-scores-star-wars-the-force-awakens
Let's keep opening doors for young players, everybody! (As best we can!)
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2023-01-19 06:49
Jen-- Yes, the system where I mainly taught was basically the same as the one when I was a student. Small group lessons of like instruments once weekly along with full rehearsals before & after school IMO is the ideal way to go. Many Band Directors disagree with me and prefer band "classes" (25 or so mixed instruments) scheduled during the school day. So you usually did 6 or so of these "rehearsals" every day. "Whew"..... This also causes a multitude of other problems (I've taught in that system as well), but they feel good because they feel they are now "equal" to other teachers. But, that is a huge topic for the Band Directors' Forums & FB Groups....
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
Post Edited (2023-01-19 06:50)
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Author: eac
Date: 2023-01-21 00:45
My first response was "let the kid play whatever he wants!" but thought I would describe the situation for fifth graders in my town where every kid plays an instrument (provided by the school district) for a year. It varies a bit among the beginner band teachers but they all expose all the kids to different instruments (strings included) before the kid chooses. One of my fellow clarinetists who teaches in the school district and plays in my community band actually takes about 4 weeks at the beginning of the school year to evaluate each child's physical build and embouchure and let them try mouthpieces for woodwinds (sterilizing plastic reeds for clarinets), all brass instruments,and percussion. She said some kids simply can't get a sound out a flute for example or just don't have large enough hands for given instrument but can find something they would like to play. She will start a kid on French horn if the kid wants even though it might be a very difficult instrument. She doesn't start kids on saxes since they are so loud and large but will transition them later. The only time she has experienced gender stereotyping was when parents of a girl questioned the kid's wanting to play trombone. She suggested the parents search for girl or women trombone players on YouTube and the girl happily played trombone. I think this teacher is an incredibly dedicated and talented person!
Liz Leckey
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2023-01-21 01:24
In my 30 years of school band and orchestra teaching, I found that one of the biggest influences on what a kid picked was what his or her friends picked (or already played), which is also probably why in elementary school starter programs you get sections comprising predominantly boys or girls.
Karl
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2023-01-21 02:36
I did mention the 50-50 split in the bands I've played in. In promoting my book, I have found that there are more male principal clarinets than women in major or fairly major symphonies world wide. Women are more usually 2nds, Eb, Bass, etc. Not always, of course.
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
Post Edited (2023-01-21 02:37)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-01-21 18:46
Hi DougR,
Reading your post there, I really feel as though you've put your finger on it. It takes huge grit for a kid to keep going in music these days (and money, which is in short supply).
There are two huge positives for youngsters at the moment, which I think are maybe undervalued:
1) Computer games have fabulous, newly written "classical" music, and the kids are absolutely steeped in it. I think that today's Nintendo music is going to be really big for classical orchestras in about 40 years. Flipside - it's hard to get simplified Nintendo sheet music for kids, as it is all copyright. I wrote and asked them.
(as an example, here is the Legend of Zelda: https://youtu.be/o49in-4Galg?t=8)
2) Computer composition programmes are the easiest and cheapest instrument that a child can learn to play these days, and talented kids can do extraordinary things, if there is an adult there to facilitate. Our favourite is Dorico, because it allows us to retrofit changes of key and time signature after the fact. It's honestly the most amazing thing. (This is an example of what my son could do on Dorico, at age 9: https://bytesofbricks.blogspot.com/2020/08/i-wrote-tune.html)
I had to largely homeschool for music, but I feel that we succeeded. My son has a solid grasp of music theory. Also I think he will always feel that he is a "horn guy", and he can pick it up at short notice for community music making. I think the old rule "know your child" is a massive part of successful music teaching.
It's difficult that music teaching is almost non-existent in primary schools here, and the loss of churchgoing at the same time has really made things complicated for group music-making.
I think your recognition that it takes grit for a kid to keep going in music is really very helpful.
Thank you for your post.
Jen
Adult learner, Grade 3
Equipment: Yamaha Custom CX Bb, Fobes 10K CF mp,
Legere Soprano Sax American Cut #2, Vandoren Optimum German Lig.
Post Edited (2023-01-21 22:21)
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Author: Cl@rinetMom
Date: 2023-02-07 16:05
I just now saw this but just to throw it in, my son was also the only boy in the clarinet section from 4th grade on. It never bothered him, he loved the instrument and turned out to have great talent with it. He's a senior now and as he grew and joined the county, district, region bands and local symphony orchestra he met and made friends with other male clarnetists but as far as his own school, he was the only male in the section. It does seem to be a very female dominated instrument but I know that he has loved every minute of it. I hope your son chooses the instrument that he will love and not base his choice off of what the other boys are choosing.
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2023-02-14 01:42
edit
- Matthew Simington
Post Edited (2023-02-14 05:54)
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2023-02-14 14:20
14 of the 30 students in my studio are girls - so a pretty even split. I really enjoy teaching a mix of genders and ages. Clarinet has always provided that for me. Here in Southern California it's always seemed to be balanced - at least since the 80's when I was a student.
As far as who achieves more, only 2 of my 8 going to All-State this week are girls - but they are the top 2. None of this is statisically relevent of course, but I can say that the balance over the decades probably is - at least regionally.
Certainly over my time gender bias towards certain instruments in school bands has faded, with flute being the glaring exception. Trumpet is still male dominated, but far less so than in the past. Every other section of the band seems just as likely to swing one way or the other these days, including low brass and percussion.
Anders
Post Edited (2023-02-14 14:24)
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