 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ruben
Date: 2022-11-09 20:31
Selmer's new clarinets have a resin lining in the bore of the upper body. They don't actually come out and say it, but this has to be because Selmer has had major issues with wood splitting and cracking. My question: does this alter the tone of the instrument?
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: SebastianB
Date: 2022-11-09 21:35
"... this has to be because Selmer has had major issues with wood splitting and cracking."
Not necessarily. It is widely believed in the clarinet world that clarinets have a limited lifespan. It is also widely held that this is due to moisture effects on the bore (including but perhaps not limited to cracking). It is also widely understood that moisture is a much greater problem in the upper joint and barrel, closer to the mouth.
Selmer may just be trying to increase the value proposition of their instruments by offering greater longevity for the investment cost.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2022-11-09 21:42
Ruben, I'm not sure what your question really means.
Oboes are made with lined upper joints and played by top oboists. Selmer lined the 10G barrels and Moennig, Jacobi and Hammer often lined barrels at customers' requests. So, there's certainly a history of linings going back well into the last century.
Beyond that, I don't know that your question is really answerable.
If you want to compare one of these lined Selmers to other makers' clarinets, you won't know if any differences in sound are the result of the lining or some other parameter.
If you want to know whether or not the same Selmer instrument without a lining will sound different, you can't know unless you have an unlined duplicate to compare to the lined one.
In the end, the important issue, I would think, is how it sounds on its own, regardless of the presence or absence of a lining.
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-11-09 22:17
Top bassoons have also been lined against moisture for decades. It is only a plus in my opinion. In fact I think though one might pick up some differences in sound (minute to be sure) between a synthetic body clarinet (Greenline) and a solid wood clarinet, I don't think it is a difference that projects after even a few feet out from the horn. Your sound is determined by the quality of the vibrating air column within the walls of the clarinet, not the walls themselves.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2022-11-10 04:02
I don't understand why clarinet makers are relatively late to the party in offering wooden clarinets with both ebonite or resin lined top joint bores and bushed toneholes when it's been done and proven to be effective at significantly reducing the likelihood of cracks happening on oboes and bassoons for ten billion yonks or thereabouts.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: David H. Kinder
Date: 2022-11-10 04:38
There's a number of clarinet makers offering alternative materials.
Selmer has their Evolution or EV series.
Backun has their GC Carbon clarinet made of carbon fiber and lined the inside with cocobolo or grenadilla.
Buffet has their Greenline series.
Of course, my preference is Ridenour's hard rubber clarinet.
Eventually I think word will get out, but until then, clarinetists often stay true to the traditions of the past and look to traditional makers to make clarinets out of the traditional materials.
Getting back into playing after 20 years.
Ridenour AureA Bb clarinet
Vandoren M15 Profile 88 (non-13) mouthpiece
Vandoren Optimum Silver ligature (plate 1)
Vandoren blue-box #3.5 reeds
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Author: ruben
Date: 2022-11-10 15:57
Chris, do Lorée Rigoutat and Marigaux line the bores of their oboes?
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2022-11-10 19:46
Alternative materials to wood have been used for well over a century for clarinets which is well known and documented, but lining the bores on wooden clarinets has rarely been done and is a relatively new thing to the clarinet world.
Ebonite has been used since the 19th century as well a metal and metal lined ebonite top joints. Plastics and resins in the 20th century and more recently, powdered grenadilla and resin binder compressed into billets to make Greenline composite which is notorious for weak tenons and will also crack between some toneholes.
The positives with these alternative materials being they're not affected by humidity and with ABS resin, joints can be injection moulded to keep costs down for entry level clarinets. The downsides being they're affected by temperature and don't have the tensile strength as grenadilla, hence Greenlines being notorious for their tenons snapping if you so much as look at them the wrong way.
Metal (brass, nickel silver or solid silver) makes for the most dimensionally stable instruments and being far more dense than wood for its relatively thin wall thickness, the tone of a well made metal clarinet isn't even an issue. The downside with metal is the fact it will dent or bend if mishandled, knocked or dropped and as metal being an excellent conductor of heat, it will cool down much faster than wood when not being played.
A combination of wood with a metal lining doesn't always work out well, what with metal being far more stable than wood and you've all seen wooden flutes and piccolos with metal lined headjoints, metal lined sockets or metal tenon inserts where the wood has split, or metal lined sockets on oboes where the sockets have cracked.
Howarth partially line the top joint with ebonite on some of their oboes as do some other makers. Yamaha line the entire top joint on their Duet+ oboes (and clarinets) in ebonite on their 800 series and resin on their 400 series. Schreiber and Fox fully line the bores with resin on both joints on some of their oboes. Marigaux offer oboes in wood and plastic as well as offering the M2 with a plastic headjoint. Now Rigoutat are merged with Buffet, I'm not sure what options they now offer.
The entire top joint bore on clarinets doesn't have to be fully lined - partially lining it down to just below the LH1 tonehole chimney and above the E/B vent tonehole will protect the most vulnerable area of the top joint bore to safeguard against cracks happening. And with a partially lined bore, the notoriously weak middle tenon being all wood will mean it'll be far stronger than a thinned out/opened up wooden tenon with a plastic lining.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2022-11-10 21:58
Yes - they're lined all the way down the length of the wing joint as well as the narrow (descending) bore of the butt joint to cover it right down to the U-tube. Some (Schreiber, Amati and others)are even lined back up from the U-tube to protect the ascending bore in the vicinity of the Ab tonehole which is the one that suffers most from moisture damage.
Maple needs lined joints as the relatively soft wood will cause the grain to rise or the wood to rot if moisture is allowed to soak into it. The bass joint bore and bell bores are usually varnished to seal the wood. Heckelphones and maple-bodied oboes and cors made by Fox and Moennig also have lined bores.
Bassoons can suffer from rot where moisture has got into and collected in gaps between the tonehole liners and the U-tube lining if it wasn't all sealed well during production or the wood or linings have shifted through temperature and humidity changes.
Buffet and Selmer (Paris) bassoons also have lined descending bores even though they're made of much harder rosewood or palisander. Some older Buffets and Selmer French systems were made from maple, either in part or all the joints.
I don't know if contras have the ascending wooden section of the bore (where the LH main action is) lined with ebonite or not - maybe it's varnished if it isn't. The descending bore on contras where the 8ve vents are is usually metal, then there's the metal tuning slide in the form of a U-tube at the bottom end of that which fits into a short metal tube that's set into the ascending bore.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: jeig
Date: 2022-11-11 14:42
Last spring I had the chance to try a bunch of Selmer Paris instruments at the facility in Elkhart. I tried the Muse, Privilege, and Signature instruments in both all wood and the hybrid evolution bore. (The muse only comes with the evolution bore.) I thought there was no noticeable difference between the two bore styles. The differences were similar to what I expected from any different instruments of the same model. When I replace my beloved Selmer Privilege (1st generation) instruments, I will likely purchase a set of Privilege instruments with the evolution bore.
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Author: Noodler100
Date: 2022-11-15 20:59
I played the same pair of Selmer Recitals for 25 years and recently replaced them with the Evolution version. The sound I now produce is exactly the same as my old pair (but better as the quality and focus of the throat notes in particular had deteriorated over time). So from my point of view, the extra protection you get re cracks is a plus. I had a crack in my old A a couple of years in and it was a painful experience - having said that the instrument seemed a lot freeer after the crack. I think Ted Planas used to say (I think?!) that a crack can be a good thing sometimes, if sorted properly!
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