 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ruben
Date: 2022-10-10 00:07
There was a label on each box of Vandoren reeds that read: "roseaux du Var", in other words, from the South of France. That label seems to have disappeared and I suspect their cane often comes from Argentina. That's fine with me as long as its good quality cane. Still, I think cane from the Var remains the best. Do any of you know where "Vando" gets most of its cane these days?
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: m1964
Date: 2022-10-10 01:49
I will ask a Vandoren dealer when I have a chance, but he may not know either.
Unfortunately, Vandoren clarinet reeds that I recently used were so inconsistent that I had to switch to another brand.
My friend (who lives in Germany) told to me that he noted decline in quality when Vandoren started placing reeds in individual wrapping.
I was not actively playing at that time so cannot comment.
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Author: Djudy
Date: 2022-10-10 02:08
While I prefer Rigotti (Var sourced) or d'Addario Classic for my Bb when I'm not using Légères, there is no option for alto reeds in Lyon other than Vando. They are wheezy and I prefer the cleaner tho' honkier sounding of my butchered Légère bass reeds. Rigotti is still sourced in southern France, Vando no idea.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2022-10-10 03:35
You can always use alto sax reeds on alto clarinet as there's a massive choice to be had in comparison to the very limited choice alto clarinet specific reeds, likewise using tenor sax reeds on bass clarinet instead of the very limited choice of bass clarinet specific reeds there are on offer.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2022-10-10 04:31
I cannot confirm, but some years back somebody in the biz told me that Vandoren was sourcing some of their cane from other places, but I don't know for sure. I agree that it does not matter much to me as long as they are decent. I do like D'Addario reeds and have had good success with them.
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2022-10-10 05:21
I'm a anecdotal test case of one. My experience with Gonzalez reeds leaves be cautious about South American cane, much that, for all I know, I've been playing on it from other vendors (e.g. Vandoren) and not aware of it.
I wonder if someone can speak to something I heard. And that is that one of the attributes that makes Var region cane the most coveted is the winds that may be lacking in, say Argentina. I've been told that such stresses on the cane from wind help strengthen it.
Thanks.
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Author: Robert N.
Date: 2022-10-10 07:06
I'm not sure about the Var region, but the winds in the Southern part of Argentina can be very strong.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-10-10 19:32
Hi SecondTry,
This article below says that the Arundo donax plants alter their development quite radically if exposed to strong wind, so maybe that is part of it?
As far as I can understand from a quick read, it says the plants grow a fair bit shorter when they grow in strong winds.
https://bsapubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.3732/ajb.90.8.1253
There are also these articles about how cultivation and structure of the reed affects musical performance:
https://academic.oup.com/aob/article-pdf/81/1/151/7983174/810151.pdf
https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/AF8ACA5249680A94647066A6C35FB353/S1431927616006048a.pdf/structural-and-biomechanical-study-of-clarinet-reeds-made-fromarundo-donax.pdf
From a quick read through, I don't get the impression that anybody has really pinned down what makes the difference. Maybe it's better understood in the R&D sections of the commercial companies?
I'm really curious to find out what happens as climate change starts to alter the growing conditions in the Var Region of France. When we had 40C+ temperatures this summer (UK) they were saying that in time our climate will come to resemble the current climate of France and Spain. They said that over the same period, the south of France will become more like north Africa.
I wonder whether cane will start to be grown in more northerly locations? I have no idea, but am just curious. I'm having to change what I grow in the garden here, because our usual plants just can't handle 40C+.
Jen
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2022-10-10 19:42
SunnyDaze wrote:
> I wonder whether cane will start to be grown in more northerly
> locations? I have no idea, but am just curious. I'm having to
> change what I grow in the garden here, because our usual plants
> just can't handle 40C+.
The chances are probably very high. I saw a report on one of the weekly news shows here (60 Minutes?) in which one French wine grower said he was moving his vineyard to Scotland because of the changing weather and soil conditions.
Even here in the Philadelphia region (U.S. mid-Atlantic) we're having vegetable plants we've always grown just give up mid-July. My wife is researching varieties with higher heat tolerance.
Karl
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-10-10 20:57
Hi Karl,
That's amazing to think of French wine moving to Scotland. I grew up there, so am very familiar with the climate (and snow).
I slightly wonder whether we could grow Arundo donax in East Anglia, as it's known locally as a flat and windy place, but I'm sure the requirements are probably more complicated than that. I'm quite sure it would also take over our entire garden if I tried it.
Jen
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Author: hans
Date: 2022-10-10 21:43
FWIW....My favourite reeds - before I switched to Legere decades ago - were Zonda, from Argentina. I recall that the package used to say something about how they were grown in a windy region and that this produced a higher quality.
Hans
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Author: ruben
Date: 2022-10-11 00:25
Hans: Zonda, if I remember right, is the name of the wind that blows near Mendoza where Gonzalez cane is grown. It is a strong wind, like the Mistral that blows in the South of France. A musician in the Duke Ellington band told me ages ago that the best cane was from Cuba, but Americans no longer had access to it after the Cuban missile crisis. I don't see anything stopping Vandoren from planting cane there though.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-10-11 00:44
Hi,
I just ploughed through most of this long article:
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02860024
I was able to get it through the University where I volunteer.
It has truckloads of really interesting information about the history of Arundo donax use in music. It says that Arundo donax has been in use for music in all different areas of the world for zillions of years. Apparently it really grows very well in a very large number of places.
There are several sections about the question of whether good cane can only be grown in France. It says that they think it is probably possible to grow good cane in other places (specifically around Texas, I think they said). However, it says that getting in-roads into the commercial market is really difficult, because the musicians are convinced that the good cane only comes from France. It says that if they relabel American cane as though it is French, then the musicians like it a whole lot more (sometimes).
It also says that part of the reason why cane growing works so well in the Var region of France is also because they have lots of other established uses for the bits of the cane plants that are not used to make reeds. It says that in order to reed making to work in the USA, they would need to set up all those other channels to use the other bits of the cane plant. Apparently that that is a whole lot of work.
It's a good article, if you can get hold of it.
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2022-10-11 09:16
Jen,
Thanks for the little synopsis you gave (and the basic notes at the link you provided) - it got me to thinking, "I bet a lot has happened pertaining to Arundo donax in Texas since the article was written."
I did a quick search for "Arundo donax Texas" and found that the US views the plant to be an invasive species. (Wasn't everything an invasive species at one point or another?)
Anyway - here's a map showing how widespread the Arundo donax is in the US: https://www.eddmaps.org/distribution/usstate.cfm?sub=3009 Like all invasive species, nature takes its course and they thrive where conditions support them. Seems like it would be nice for someone to find a profit in it since it is already here. I wonder if anyone is testing the US variety for use as woodwind reeds.
Surely someone along the way has recognized it for what it is and taken it home to cure/cut/use?
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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Author: ruben
Date: 2022-10-11 09:26
Fuzzy: an oboist colleague of mine has been using wild cane for the last thirty years to make her reeds. She uses cane that grows wild by the railway tracks and would never dream of buying the cultivated variety of cane.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-10-11 09:41
Hi Fuzzy,
That's really interesting to know - and especially how it is considered invasive. Apparently it grows to 8m tall, and is basically just like bamboo. It really sounds epic.
Ruben - going by that article, it sounds as though your friend's philosophy must have underpinned much of the early music making for thousands of years in all different parts of the world. It seems as though really a large number of people have been making reeds and even whole instruments in just that kind of way. The more I read about it, the more curious I feel about this plant. It really sounds very interesting to grow - except that it would totally consume my garden. :-)
Jen
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Author: smokindok
Date: 2022-10-11 10:01
Thanks for the link to that map, Fuzzy! Turns out the theater I’ve been playing at the past three weeks is just 13 miles from one of the “infestations”. Next time I am out that way, which should be in a couple weeks, I will go searching.
John
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Author: ruben
Date: 2022-10-11 13:08
It's very much like a weed!
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-10-11 14:41
There was another thing that struck me from that article. It says that even though people have been experimenting with reeds and music making for thousands of years, the folks all over the world seemed to have converged on using Arundo dorax, really as the single best plant for the job.
The article said that one of the things that makes Arundo dorax reeds so good is that in addition to being flexible, they are really good at pinging back to be perfectly straight, and that that is very important. Apparently other plants are not as good at that, somehow. I think that's what it was getting at anyway.
The article also said that there had been times in history when it was hard to get reeds from France, for example round about the two world wars. Apparently at those times, people used other things. However, once things returned to normal, everybody went back to using French cane.
John - your trip to see the cane sounds really amazing. I would love to see photos if you get there. I also kind of wonder what sorts of bugs nad birds live in a big block of reeds like that. I bet there is some serious nesting going on there.
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Author: JohnP
Date: 2022-10-11 17:50
SunnyDaze, I should think you could grow Arundo Donax in East Anglia, there is some growing in Wisley Gardens SW of London
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-10-11 18:04
Hi John,
Yes I think you're right. My worry is that it would grow too well and take over the place. Some friends of mine had a similar plant in their garden until recently, and when it got out of control, it took 3 men and a digger to remove it. :-)
I wonder how the folks in the Var region of France manage to stop it taking over all the adjacent countryside?
Jen
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Author: SebastianB
Date: 2022-10-11 18:39
Although there is no reason to think this is relevant to even the historical clarinet, it's worth being clear that Arundo donax has not always had a monopoly as a source of reeds, and even now there are musical pockets that use Phragmites australis.
https://www.doublepipes.info/phragmites-vs-arundo/
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2022-10-11 18:40
SunnyDaze wrote:
> I wonder how the folks in the Var region of France manage to
> stop it taking over all the adjacent countryside?
>
A sculpture garden we visit often grows bamboo (which is closely related) and arundo (which they use to simulate cornstalks) in defined areas of park. I think they sink metal barriers below ground to confine the plants' runners.
Of course if there's any open area around the cane field, you can probably just mow around the cane to keep it within a perimeter.
Karl
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-10-11 19:17
That's really impressive that they do that Karl. I found a page about how people doing something similar here: https://gardenandbloom.com/blog/installing-a-bamboo-barrier
It's a tremendous amount of work isn't it?
I wonder how long it takes before hte bamboo flexes its muscles and breeches the barrier? My botany degree involved a bunch of field trips to go and see what happens when plants turn rogue, and it was quite something to see.
The article that I read sais that Arundo donax rarely propagates by seed, so that must simplify things a bit.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2022-10-11 19:23
In hurricane-prone Louisiana, engineers have long used plants to fortify levees and sandbars against the ravages of wind and flood damage. The deep-rooted vetiver is one example, but Arundo Donax has also been drafted for this purpose.
Large clumps of the cane attract mottled ducks, rails, and other shorebirds. Often, nearby, one can find the living fossil Horsetail or Equistem growing next to cattails. These reed rushes with their hard silica ridges were once used to scour pots and pans and can work like a more forgiving natural sandpaper to adjust and balance reed surfaces. There are walking paths in New Orleans where horsetail can easily be picked in quantity. The Louisiana parishes of Orleans, Jefferson, and East Baton Rouge, among others, have clumps of wild Arundo Donax also waiting to be foraged by seekers after cane blanks who could pocket the reed and the reed adjustment tool in one trip. I have picked more of the horsetail than I know what to do with.
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Author: manuel78
Date: 2022-10-20 22:34
Vandoren throughout their history has used cane from different origins. Only less than half their raw material is from their plantations in France. They used to use cane from Argentina, I guess from Gonzalez Reeds, since they started as a raw material provider. But in parallel, they were working with a wild cane provider from the south-east of Spain (Caña Selecta).
Currently, I think Vandoren is no longer using Argentinian material (perhaps because Gonzalez started making reeds). However, is still using around half of their material from their plantations in France, and the rest from wild cane in the south-east of Spain. I believe Caña Selecta is the same cane provider of Rigotti.
D'Addario do use Argentinian material, in fact, they have mounted a cane processing company in Mendoza, the city where Gonzalez Reeds is based.
Post Edited (2022-10-21 01:47)
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Author: ruben
Date: 2022-10-20 23:20
Manuel: What ever happened to Australian cane?
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Wurlyman185
Date: 2022-10-21 02:22
Scuttlebutt:
Some years ago I heard that the founders of Reeds Australia (state of South Australia) had sold the company, and that the new owners were exporting cane rather than manufacturing reeds.
South Australia has a great wine producing region, with a climate similar to the south of France. Seems great wine and great arundo donax are happy bedfellows!
Post Edited (2022-10-21 02:26)
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Author: ruben
Date: 2022-10-21 14:54
My great friend; Chuck Olivieri, used to make reeds from Australian cane which wasn't the cane used by the now defunct Reeds Australia. Great stuff that lasted forever! I don't know if there is a connection between good wine-growing areas and good cane, but I do know that there is one between tobacco-growing soil and climate and good cane. Thus Cuba and the Dominican Republic would be perfect: for growing cane, not to live in!
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: donald
Date: 2022-10-22 03:29
I would have LOVED to have been able to support/promote Reeds Australia and their products, but unfortunately had absolutely no success whatsoever with their reeds. Not ONE reed (and I both bought them AND had various free samples) ever worked to a level that I would have wanted anyone to hear me playing on it. As I also spent a lot of time working on them to try to make them play, and never could, I attributed this to the quality of the cane. The only person I knew here in NZ who made their own reeds with any success (a pro player who retrained in her 40s and is now a doctor!) came to the same conclusion.
A bit sad.
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Author: manuel78
Date: 2022-10-24 17:55
I don't know exactly what happened to Australian Reeds. I've never tried them, but some of my colleagues have, and their opinion is pretty consistent: they weren't bad, but they weren't good enough either, and they were very hard.
I imagine that the development of a reed is quite difficult, because very few manufacturers have managed to make their own models and have them be successful. Most new manufacturers copy successful models, just like happens in mouthpieces or clarinets.
Some time ago I had an email exchange with Gonzalez Reeds because I had noticed changes in the reed I use (GD). They explained to me that after some research, they had redesigned the GD vamping to make better use of the higher-density material they obtain from their plantations in Argentina.
In addition to the supposed advantages that I should notice, they told me a curiosity that may have to do with this topic. The cane that manufacturers use in the world has been softening over the years, due to the use of many fertilizers to have larger diameter canes, and to the use a lot of wild cane that grows at the side of rivers.
So my conclusion is that Australian Reed never made a successful clarinet reed as they didn't develop their own vamp but instead copied some successful one (Vandoren Traditional or V12 perhaps) which are made from much softer raw material than the one they probably grew in Australia. The vamp did not accompany the raw material, and the result was a very hard cane.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2022-10-24 22:56
Manuel: very interesting, informative comments! Vandoren has the best machines money can buy and an elderly genius engineer that designs them. My bassoonist playing partner swears by Turkish cane these days (Forte, I think it's called. )
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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