 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2022-09-06 02:50
I'm having trouble working through the following thought process:
1. Whenever I experience a leak of air (pad/tenon) in a woodwind instrument...I usually feel that the setup is more "resistant" than it should be. (Is this a wrong way of using the word "resistant" as applied to wind instruments?)
2. Since little (to no) air is put "through" the instrument, and it is only the vibrating air column created by the reed's vibrations - then what causes the problem described in #1 above?
In short: What creates the feeling of resistance when there's a leak somewhere in the instrument?
(This is one of those examples where a capable player might be able to make the clarinet sound great - leaks and all - whereas a beginner might only be able to produce squeaks.)
Thanks,
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2022-09-06 03:18
You might want to replace your barrel with a spirometer so you can measure the air flow that you are breathing from your lungs just to confirm that it doesn't disappear into thin air after exiting the mouthpiece during its open/closed phases.
This may help https://newt.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/clarinetacoustics.html#pff
it does mention blowing harder and using harder reeds to prevent the reed from locking shut. But you have to vary depending upon reed opening, reed strength, etc (check athletic and medical articles). Having Spirometers I can tell you when you breathe out there is air flow going out of your lungs and into whatever environment you are breathing out of and into.
In the articulation section they get into more detail
https://newt.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/articulations.html
be careful to differentiate Pressure Pulse, from Pressure from AirFlow.
Truthfully to me all the articles doesn't answer your question which really is where does your air go that you are breathing out and how does that affect the playability of the instrument. That is different from what the articles are testing (even though they use an air pump, although they add a shaker which a regular player is not using).
If you have a very open throat your airflow pressure is less than if you have a more closed throat. But when you breathe out you stimulate the reed. But you are doing this with your airflow. When the reed cycles open/closed the air pressure in your mouth exits into the instrument. But since you are continuously breathing out you are maintaining the air pressure in your mouth that is cycling the reed. This until your lungs run out of air and you breath in again and start the cycle all over.
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Stephen Sklar
My YouTube Channel of Clarinet Information
Post Edited (2022-09-06 03:35)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-09-06 03:42
Just be sure that you have the correct term for what you are doing with your "throat" (the back of your tongue). Back when I was talking about "open throat" with my instructor and used the AHHHH sound (as if awaiting a doctor's tongue depressor) my instructor said that "open throat" is closed throat. He was referring to the fact that the AHHH position of the tongue actually presses the back of the tongue further down causing LESS space at the top of the trachea.
As for leaks, there is no room for leaks on professional player's horn. So there would be no dealing with leaks. A leak would cause a certain note (or multiple notes) to misfire. You need to know that a note will sound exactly where you need it.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2022-09-06 04:35
Stephen,
Thanks for the links. I've gone through and read most of the first link. It explains a lot of basics, but as you suggest...it doesn't specifically address my question.
One of the reasons behind my question: The experiment(s) where no air is put through a wind instrument (at least not further than the mouthpiece/barrel). I thought there was a clarinet version, but I haven't been able to find that link. Here's the link for the brass example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZvDvuxjHvU
So - you've highlighted a good point. Would such a test show any difference in impedance or "resistance" when presented with a leaking tone hole/pad/tenon?
Thanks,
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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Author: Bennett ★2017
Date: 2022-09-06 04:38
If you finger a middle '3 finger' C, what do you feel coming out of the tone
holes below? Clearly air is coming out of the instrument. This doesn't answer your question about resistance from leaks but your air is going somewhere, leak or not.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2022-09-06 04:55
Fuzzy,
In a previous BB thread entitled "Clarinet Resistance", in the middle of a response by Clarnetamaphone, he speaks of "inefficient resistance" caused by leaking pads, tenons, etc.
Here's the thread: http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=380668&t=380668
My understanding of what he's saying is a leaky pad lowers the resonance of the clarinet and that in turn increases resistance or to paraphrase his words "inefficient resistance is created."
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2022-09-06 05:19
Basically airflow allows us to test the air tightness of the pads whether from the player's sensitivity or a magnehelic machine.
The varying sized toneholes, etc creates a consistent pressure and backpressure.
This supports those tests you read about.
Your air leak identifies the same problem the experiments would have, if those instruments had the same leaks. But your air pressure can also induce leaks as I mentioned in other thread such as a weak spring in the Ab throat or lower Eb pinky key as those two are common checks). Players can vary their pressure and playing to compensate for some problems. For instance a leaky pad can be compensated for by using more finger closing pressure to eliminate a leak.
The register pip is a bit different though. If it was too large it can reduce the backpressure too much and cause the reed to slap shut and squeak. As it enlarges then becomes a tonehole like the trill keys are.
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Stephen Sklar
My YouTube Channel of Clarinet Information
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Author: Luuk ★2017
Date: 2022-09-06 11:58
Check this thread for a discussion about the importance of airflow in playing clarinet: http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=468002&t=467926
A thought about resistance: I suspect the resistance felt is a result of the reed not opening up very far during its cycle because of bad resonance of the air column in the instrument.
As may be known, a wave travelling down the instrument reflects at about the first open end (open tonehole or bell), and travels back to the reed. It pushes the reed somewhat open, while reflecting again, travels down, reflects at the open hole, etc. This wave is enhanced because when the reed is pushed open by it, a new puff of air enters, and the wave travels down with more energy. This is resonance: only a distinct set of frequencies matches the dimensions of the air column and travels synchronized with itself and thus 'harvests' almost all the enery put in the system. This mechanism is hampered by waves with other frequencies interfering with it, draining energy and pushing against the reed at 'wrong' intervals, not matching the first wave.
The presence of waves not arriving at the same moment at the reed makes the reed move erroneously, not really opening up during its cycle and putting energy in waves not wanted ('noise').
Regards,
Luuk
Philips Symphonic Band
The Netherlands
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2022-09-06 14:55
Luuk,
Thank you very much for your explanation! This makes a lot of sense to me.
Quote:
A thought about resistance: I suspect the resistance felt is a result of the reed not opening up very far during its cycle because of bad resonance of the air column in the instrument.
Thanks also for the link to the older thread! I remember that thread, but couldn't find it myself. I had forgotten that Chris P had proved the basic concept on clarinet. (I had mis-remembered there being a video - but I'm certain, now, that it was the photos/posts by Chris).
Re-reading Tony's posts in that thread helped a lot too...but your answer here put everything together for me pertaining to the "resistance" one feels when presented by a leak - thanks for that!
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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Author: Mojo
Date: 2022-09-06 16:44
Your air flow is used at the very tip of the mouthpiece with the reed to set up the standing wave. After that it becomes useless exhaust.
Leaks disrupt the standing wave. This wave has pressure pulses in it that tiny leaks can disrupt and affect node locations. An octave pip does this in a desirable way.
MojoMP.com
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
MojoMouthpieceWork@yahoo.com
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