 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: vrufino
Date: 2022-08-09 00:29
I heard a podcast with Jonathan Cohler during which he stated that he is still playing his matched set of Rossi clarinets from the 1990’s. He has maintained them with a local repair person, and does not believe in the theory that clarinets blowout and need to be replaced. Regular contributors to the BB pleas weigh in with your thoughts on this theory. Have you experienced this?
Dr. Vincent J. Rufino
Professor of clarinet and saxophone
St. Elizabeth University
Morristown, NJ
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2022-08-09 01:03
I've never seen a "blown out" clarinet that didn't just need a good overhaul. You'd be surprised what can be saved. I've personally saved clarinets that have been played regularly for 50+ years, clarinets with flood damage and clarinets with severe damage from drops.
-JDbassplayer
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-08-09 03:49
My theory on blowout is that it is related to intonation and response issues that occur when the bore and/or the tone holes go out of round through the vagaries of exposure to moisture through the years (can happen to new clarinets within the first year!). A good craftsman can get those issues resolved.
I recall in college my professor was pretty adamant about replacing his horns every ten years or so.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: lydian
Date: 2022-08-11 00:35
At least I have an excuse next time I hit a clam on my 50 year old clarinet, in spite of the fact that a plastic clarinet doesn't wear or degrade at all in my lifetime. "I wasn't my fault. My clarinet had a "blowout"."
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Author: donald
Date: 2022-08-11 14:28
I have a 1963 R13 that has definitely NOT "blown out" and still plays amazingly despite seriously worn keys, but have also owned a 2004 Festival A clarinet that, despite the best tech work and adjustments etc, definitely "blew out" (ie the dimensions changed in a way that compromised performance). It all depends on the piece of wood (and probably how you look after it). I had a 1998 R13 B flat that underwent some changes and lot its mojo, and Francois Kloc "re-bored" it for me. When I sold that in 2008 the buyer (a teacher who on-sold it to one of his students) said it was the best R13 he'd ever played- so the effects of "blow out" might be reversible, but I wouldn't trust many people to mess around with my bore! Certainly only a handful of repair techs worldwide have this knowledge and skill.
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2022-08-11 18:08
I repaired clarinets professionally for over 25 years. Clarinets can get blown out. To me it results in a certain lack of resistance and control. They certainly can still be played. Mouthpiece and barrel can often compensate. The age of the clarinet matters less than the amount the instrument is played (and how much the bore has changed). Perhaps that is why many symphony players change their clarinets every ten years. They play them more and they demand a lot from their clarinets (for example playing in large venues with a large ensemble).
I think that playing on a clarinet you have had for a while is like wearing an old shoe. It feels comfortable plus you know how to make music on it. I have no problem with that and see no reason you should look for a new clarinet. It may in fact play better than some brand new instruments out there.
Steve Ocone
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Author: Hunter_100
Date: 2022-08-11 19:27
This video is from Backun, adjusting a clarinet that has gone out of dimension. It is an interesting video to me, although it doesn't say a lot about the clarinet's stability if their pro horns need bore and tone hole reaming after only 2 years of use!
https://youtu.be/weGxlC0YI2I
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Author: m1964
Date: 2022-08-11 23:05
vrufino wrote:
"I heard a podcast with Jonathan Cohler during which he stated that he is still playing his matched set of Rossi clarinets from the 1990’s. He has maintained them with a local repair person, and does not believe in the theory that clarinets blowout and need to be replaced. Regular contributors to the BB pleas weigh in with your thoughts on this theory. Have you experienced this?"
I once bought a R13 Prestige A clarinet that was out of tune- very badly out of tune. It was flat overall and very uneven between registers.
However, its tone was just beautiful, and the there was very low resistance.
When I bought it I hoped to bring it to a reasonably good tuning by adjusting pads opening.
I was wrong. It took shortening the barrel to 63.5mm (from 65mm) and very careful adjustment to tone holes (mostly narrowing them) to bring the clarinet to the point I felt I could sell it.
The sales person told me that it belonged to the Air force band so who knows what it went through during its life in the band.
Also, I once tried an RC Prestige Bb clarinet that had no plating left on the rings and very little plating left on other keys. It belonged to an accomplished soloist in Europe who probably played it 4-5 hours/day (maybe more).
It just did not have the tone/timbre in it.
So yes, the clarinet can lose their qualities from bore changes induced by either playing or by being stored in harsh environment.
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Author: lydian
Date: 2022-08-11 23:23
I think the safest thing to do is keep a spare clarinet in the trunk in case of a blowout. Or maybe just stop blowing so hard.
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Author: Vrat
Date: 2022-08-12 00:02
My clarinet is a Selmer which is, according to its serial number N876, from 1946. I play it every day and I love it.
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Author: marcia
Date: 2022-08-12 01:10
>I repaired clarinets professionally for over 25 years. Clarinets can get blown out.
Steven, can you please explain the physical changes that occur in a "blow out", what causes it, how it is repaired.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2022-08-12 02:48
I'm not a professional repairer, although I have been restoring and repairing clarinets for about 20 years. I've repaired/restored several instruments that were described as "Blown Out". In all but 2 cases they responded well to cleaning up the tone holes, repadding and adjustment. The exceptions both showed dimensional changes to the wood, beyond my skill level to attempt a fix. It is certainly possible for a clarinet to reach a stage where performance is compromised, but mostly this is due to the quality and characteristics of the wood from which it is made. "Blown Out" is something of a misnomer, it's a process of deterioration and dimensional change over time. I always thought that hard rubber instruments were immune from this condition until I saw one that had spent a summer in a hot car boot. It had a curve along its length. It might have been made from banana wood.
Tony F.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2022-08-13 02:55
"I think the safest thing to do is keep a spare clarinet in the trunk in case of a blowout."
Would that be a full-size one to match your others, a space-saver one in metal or one of those cheap and nasty plastic ones that only works under certain conditions?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: lydian
Date: 2022-08-13 04:12
Chris P wrote:
> "I think the safest thing to do is keep a spare clarinet in
> the trunk in case of a blowout."
>
> Would that be a full-size one to match your others, a
> space-saver one in metal or one of those cheap and nasty
> plastic ones that only works under certain conditions?
>
These days, a can of fix-a-flat would be more appropriate, so just a short barrel? And don't play anything faster than 55 mph.
But seriously, the idea of a blown out clarinet is asinine. A clarinet salesman must have come up with the idea.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-08-13 06:46
I agree the term may seem a bit meaningless, but there are those who have had less satisfactory performance over time. My teacher was with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra and I doubt if it was just the power of suggestion from an unscrupulous salesmen that made him regularly update horns.
As stated above there are few folks who can do acoustic work like Backun, so it's a lot easier to get a newer horn than seek out a rare artisan and then pay his well deserved hefty fee for restoring the horn to its prior glory.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: m1964
Date: 2022-08-13 07:48
Paul Aviles wrote:
> As stated above there are few folks who can do acoustic work
> like Backun, so it's a lot easier to get a newer horn than seek
> out a rare artisan and then pay his well deserved hefty fee for
> restoring the horn to its prior glory.
>
I'd guess the result of such restoration can be somewhat unpredictable as well.
Although, it would be nice to hear from someone who has done a bore replacement
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Author: donald
Date: 2022-08-13 11:17
I can name two players in the US who claim Backun wrecked their clarinets in the name of fixing the bore... so the success of the operation definitely lies in the beholder...
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-08-13 11:50
Of course what I referred to above as well is putting things BACK INTO ROUND. You need to be careful and know what you are doing but honestly it is not rocket science. I base my trust in a video that is unfortunately not available anymore. It was Morrie working on a year old (maybe even six months only) clarinet that Ricardo Morales was using. The one or two tone holes became ovate. This caused Morales to have some response issues in the clarion. He didn't feel it responded as well as when he first took on the clarinet. Morrie illustrated how a hand boring tool meant for that sized tone hole mostly went in, but then stopped and wobbled slightly up and down (illustrating that the once perfectly round hole had gone ovate up and down with the grain). A quick quarter turn (maybe half) of the boring tool put the tone hole back in round and Morales was once again pleased with the performance of the horn.
THAT sort of thing is what I'm talking about.
Also, it may be more prudent to avoid "what two guys" said without more information. Did they have horns that went off the rails or did they buy horns and just hope they would get even better?
............Paul Aviles
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Author: Hunter_100
Date: 2022-08-13 16:11
Paul, the video you describe is the same one I commented about earlier. It is still on youtube, the link is in my earlier post.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-08-13 17:03
Yes Hunter that's it! So sorry that I missed your original submission. But I'm grateful that this video is available. I agree whole-heartedly that this should NOT be the case with new horns. A big problem is the rush to get clarinets made from wood billets. Factories in a by-gone era used to let the cut billets sit out and age for years before the process that lathed them into clarinets. Now, the wood itself is becoming less available and the demand is high so companies use a kiln drying process these days.
But any clarinet no matter age can become susceptible to such changes for a variety of reasons. There were images posted here some time ago about re-hydrating a clarinet with bore oil and the effect that has on the look of the wood. Contrast that with those folks who proudly say, "I've NEVER bore oiled a clarinet." OR just the vagaries of pitch irregularities we face with new clarinets. That problem probably has more to do with how much things have changed with the horn between having that last tweak in the factory and all the travel, different temperature and humidity changes it goes through and just sitting it does before it gets into our hands.
Having the opportunity to play test many, I have not experienced nearly the amount of variation amongst horns made of Greenline material (mostly epoxy that is impervious to the vagaries of moisture). I hear that Royal clarinets will be soon available in a Greenline style material as well.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: donald
Date: 2022-08-14 00:15
I just received the stupidest email ever, either this guy is being impersonated by someone who thinks it's funny (which it kind of IS, so thanks!) OR the person who wrote the email is a giant insecure tool... read below...
"
Dear Mr. Nicholls
Re: Clarinet bulletin board postings
We are forwarding your comments to our legal counsel. You should govern yourself accordingly.
Yours truly,
Morrie Backun
President
Backun Musical Services Limited/Laskey
#1 - 6750 Cariboo Road, Burnaby, BC, Canada V3N 4A4
Office: +1 (604) 205-5770 extension 101
Fax: +1 (604) 205-5775
Mobile: +1 7789965771
morrie@backunmusical.com
www.backunmusical.com"
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Author: donald
Date: 2022-08-14 00:26
The funny thing is, you can interpret my comment above to mean be complimentary to his "work" or disparaging, which is entirely the point of the thing. However I doubt whoever wrote the email above has the critical reading skills to work that out.
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Author: donald
Date: 2022-08-14 03:00
It would appear so, the idea that you can take legal action because someone said someone else didn't like a product or service is HILARIOUSLY STUPID.
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Author: lydian
Date: 2022-08-14 03:36
Looks like it's time for me to go back to law school and finish my degree. I could make a fortune suing each and every one of the millions of negative reviewers on Amazon and other shopping sites as well as all discussion boards.
But in this case, it ain't libel if it's true. So as long as you didn't make up your story, I think you're safe.
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Author: donald
Date: 2022-08-14 04:02
Trust me, finding two people to corroborate that they didn't like something Backun would NOT be a problem (but here's the thing- you can say exactly the same about Buffet, Yamaha, Selmer... don't see them sending out threatening emails?)
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2022-08-14 14:03
A couple of years back a restaurant in Sydney got about a quarter of a million bucks in damages after a food writer gave them a bad revue. We live in strange times.
Tony F.
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Author: Jarmo Hyvakko
Date: 2022-08-16 09:14
I am still playing a set of Buffet Prestiges from 1980's. Just the other day i had to get my Bb-clarinet repaired and played a brand new Buffet Tradition for a couple of days. A very good instrument, the owner had a chance to choose it from half a dozen of instruments. Dark, even, pleasant and uniform sound.
Then i got my own instrument back. So much more vibrant, colourful, lively sound. You feel how the instrument vibrates in your hands. I think that in the good-ole-days they also designed the instrument different: more possibilities of expression, more resonant sound. Perhaps someone may think that when his instrument loses it's evenness and uniformness of sound it is "blown out"? You might also think that at that point it's "played in"!
I would never change my instrument to a modern fashion dark, uniform instrument.
By the way, i use in my instruments Backun barrels and bells. I originally changed to them because i searched for a darker sound. I tried them to this new instrument: they made the "Buffet Tradition" sound brighter and more vibrant!
Jarmo Hyvakko, Principal Clarinet, Tampere Philharmonic, Finland
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Author: m1964
Date: 2022-08-16 13:58
Interesting that the same barrel makes sound darker on an old Prestige (RC or R13?), but brighter on Tradition
I wonder if there is a person on this board who tried multiple barrels from different makers on their clarinet(s) and what the effects were.
Could be a separate discussion.
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Author: Jarmo Hyvakko
Date: 2022-08-16 17:05
My prestige is a rc. I could understand it so, that the "Traditional" bell and barrel make the instrument even darker than Backun gadgets. If i use the original bell and barrel in my Prestige, that instrument becomes significantly brighter!
Jarmo Hyvakko, Principal Clarinet, Tampere Philharmonic, Finland
Post Edited (2022-08-16 17:09)
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2022-08-17 20:20
Something that I have noticed over the years is that a large proportion of the high-level clarinettists that I have met are lacking in knowledge as to how their instruments work. The reason I mention this is that it may account for some of the reports of instruments being blown out, when all that is required to bring them back to fine playing condition is a little applied knowledge and experience of mechanical principles and some workshop skills. I have repaired instruments for professional musicians where all that was required was a bit of cork or a spot of oil, but to the musicians concerned this was a threat to their next performance.
Most high-level musicians do not fit this description, but many certainly do.
Tony F.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2022-08-17 23:50
Jarmo Hyvakko wrote:
"I am still playing a set of Buffet Prestiges from 1980's..."
Last week, I had a chance to try a RC Prestige A clarinet from 80es (231xxx serial #).
The clarinet belonged to a professional who did not use it a lot.
It was a fine sounding instrument, very much in tune, even in response across registers.
I was comparing it to my Festival (650xxx serial #). That RC Prestige sounded differently, not better or worse, just differently, but it did produce fine sound.
To me, that was another proof that if an instrument has been stored properly and not been abused it would retain its playing characteristics regardless of its age.
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Author: Hardlec
Date: 2022-08-19 20:28
I have a 100 year old peddler which has a marvelous tone.
The intonation problems are in my embrasure, not the horn.
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2022-08-20 05:38
When I was studying for my Masters (1978) my teacher said he felt my Buffet was blown out, though it was new in only 1971. Now, other than my A clarinet used for orchestral playing back then, this Bb clarinet was my only one and I practiced much daily on it. My 1999 Buffet still seems like new. I practice on it only once monthly (use my student Selmer the other days) and for our 7 concert summer band series. My guess is they're like used cars-- biggest factor is probably mileage. But who knows.
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
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Author: donald
Date: 2022-08-26 03:09
I still can't believe that Barrie Muckoon tried to bully me into kowtowing to his mafia, and barely anyone batted an eyelid.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2022-08-26 22:28
donald wrote:
"I still can't believe that Barrie Muckoon tried to bully me into kowtowing to his mafia, and barely anyone batted an eyelid."
Maybe because there is not much they can do except for sending an e-mail...
Well, I am not a lawyer so if anyone really knows please post your comments.
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2022-08-31 22:31
I took a break from this board and I see that this thread is still alive. One of my regrets is that I didn't learn more about acoustics when I was repairing full time. And there are some famous clarinet techs who know lots more than me and have ruined clarinets.
Clarinets are made with wood from different parts of the tree, with different grain and different densities. The upper and lower joints can change in different ways. Early in my career my wife had a few out of tune notes on my clarinet. I had her do a tuning chart and I took it to a workshop I was doing with Francois Kloc. He looked at the chart. Put a very slight bevel on one of the joints where they meet and the issue was solved. He gave a quick explanation but I was not able to understand it without more background (there was no time for that).
A well known Philadelphia tech came to my shop with a customer to buy a clarinet. He had measuring tools with him to measure the bore in different places. He felt the density of the wood, looked inside of the bore, and took quick readings with his tools. Then he lined the seven clarinets up from good to bad. The first two he said he could work with (guess in terms of tuning, resistance, etc). The customer did play them and left with one of those clarinets. I haven't seen this before or since. I only give this as an example of someone who can bridge the gap between manufacture and repair. (He actually spent time working at Buffet.)
Right now I'm slowly restoring a very old R13 left over from when I sold my repair shop. It's completely apart, bore cleaned, lightly polished, oiled, and my next step is to polish with wax. Hopefully it will tune well and have some life when it is done.
Sorry this post ran on so long.
Steve Ocone
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Author: m1964
Date: 2022-09-01 00:09
Steven,
Thanks for sharing your experience.
A few months back, I bought a new Buffet in Europe and brought it to one of the best (if not the best) tech in NYC to get his opinion and compare the new one with the clarinet I already had.
I did point out that the new one had a few notes out of tune (as well as the old one), to which he replied,"They all are not perfect, no matter what you play-Tosca or Legende".
I did, however, noted that Tosca and Legende were more in tune than R13 and RC Prestiges and sounded more evenly- no notes were "sticking out" when playing those more expensive models.
My guess is that the top of the line models get more individual attention at the factory and/or possibly the wood for those gets picked up more carefully too.
Although I have no idea if they pick up wood visually or use ultrasound, MRI or some other technique.
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Author: Jarmo Hyvakko
Date: 2022-09-07 16:51
And in the 80's Prestige was "the-expensive-Buffet"!
Jarmo Hyvakko, Principal Clarinet, Tampere Philharmonic, Finland
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Author: Hunter_100
Date: 2022-09-07 18:08
They have a prestige greenline model. I hope there must be something else different than just the wood since it costs a lot more than the regular rc.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2022-09-09 07:01
There is definitely a step up in sound quality from a R13 or RC to their Prestige models.
The RC, compared to RC Prestige, lacks metal tenon rings. Otherwise, everything else is the same - silver plated keys, lt. auxiliary Eb/Ab lever, even the oval plate below the logo.
Must be something they do to the wood (better undercutting? more even bore?)
or maybe just more careful wood selection.
I'd like to know how they check wood quality, but that can be a trade secret.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2022-09-16 15:17
Heavier wood (more dense) is used in the Prestige model Clarinet. Literally they weigh the wood to select it for the upper models.
Clarinet wood can and does shrink over time.
Back in 2004 when Ricardo just came to Philly, at dinner with him and Jim Pyne I brought up the subject of Clarinet blowout. Jim said that when the top tenon of a Clarinet’s upper joint is not fully dried after playing, the wood can rot and ruin the Clarinet over time.
Keywork getting really loose happens also with older Clarinets - technician can repair that, but can get costly.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
Post Edited (2022-09-17 03:08)
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