Woodwind.OrgThe Clarinet BBoardThe C4 standard

 
  BBoard Equipment Study Resources Music General    
 
 New Topic  |  Go to Top  |  Go to Topic  |  Search  |  Help/Rules  |  Smileys/Notes  |  Log In   Newer Topic  |  Older Topic 
 Carbon Fiber Ligature: Essential Accessory For Legere Reeds
Author: Paul Aviles 
Date:   2022-06-15 17:53
Attachment:  Eddie Daniels.jpg (427k)
Attachment:  Carbonissimo.jpg (11k)
Attachment:  Vandoren Carbon.jpg (32k)
Attachment:  Avis.png (325k)

First the required disclaimer:

[Equipment will not imbue one with better sound or technique if one does not already have a good sound. In fact, to hear critical differences amongst clarinets, mouthpieces and ligatures one needs to have a good basic sound. If that remains elusive, you can start with this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYBzMOm7EJQ]


It is also important to note that I have tested these ligatures only on Legere Euro Cut and Signature Soprano Sax reeds. Cane is no longer a material that I use for reeds.


Two and half months ago I received my first carbon fiber ligature which is the Eddie Daniels by Jewel. This is a more a "plate" within a faux leather ligature much like many Rovner or BG. I assumed that any special effect would be muted at best. I was wrong. In the first moments it was dramatically clear that the sound was much more resonant. It was not just an enhancement of the upper partials which is the typical effect one gets with better ligatures (helpful as that is) but it was an enhancement of the all frequencies, particularly the fundamental of the note (ALL the notes). This was mostly noticeable down in the lower chalumeau where the low "E" and low "F" became really rich (notes that are traditionally slightly muted with Legere). It also became obvious that dynamics widened with louder louds and softer softs. Even the crispness of articulation became much clearer.


Rather than rush out with this news for Legere users, I decided to settle in over time as well as experiment with another mouthpiece. Using a similar lay but entirely different mouthpiece design, I got the same results (to include the fact that the ligature seemed to want to be set a little lower than any of my others paired with Legere. Rather than sounding best right at the line of ligature (on either mouthpiece, ruling out a specific table issue) the carbon fiber ligature preferred to be a little lower. I believe that the greater resonance begs for more of the reed to vibrate freely. Here I must throw out that as with any ligature really, the carbon fiber ligature responded best left as loose as practical.


Then (of course) I had to compare this result with any other carbon fiber ligature I could get my hands on: Carbonissimo, Vandoren CARBON and the Avis Carbon Fiber (very hard to get a hold of these days for geo-political reasons). These other ligatures are of a much thinner material and have different architectures mainly in that they are completely carbon fiber material. I hasten to add that they ALL have the same character though these thinner ligatures have less of the "fundamental" of the note. This is actually the center of the marketing for Avis ligature seen here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoNttOc46sI



So it seems to me that the thicker the carbon fiber material (the progressively higher numbers for the Avis are progressively thicker material) the more the fundamental of the note is emphasized. I therefore disagree with their premise of the "softer/harder" reeds. Though the effect is something like what they say, it is more that the "fundamental" requires more energy to suss it out and therefore may seem as though the reed is made stiffer.


That said I only have the Avis #2 that I acquired off of Etsy. If ANY OF YOU have the Avis numbers #3, #4 or #5 and are willing to part with them I will buy from you stat! I still want to confirm through those ligatures what I see comparing the majority to the Eddie Daniels.


Bottom line is that the Carbon Fiber material used as the point of contact for Legere reeds allows the user to achieve the desired resultant sound with much less effort. The various architectural differences from ligature to ligature make tiny differences (mainly in practicality of use) but it is the material that is key. Perhaps the best approach for some manufacturers would be to create carbon fiber plates. This should work well for the Zac Ligature, the Vandoren Leather (or Optimum?) and BG.....to name a few.








...................Paul Aviles



Post Edited (2022-06-15 17:58)

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Carbon Fiber Ligature: Essential Accessory For Legere Reeds
Author: SecondTry 
Date:   2022-06-15 18:56

I'd be curious to know if one achieves similar harmonic abundance with a Luyben plastic ligature.

I'd be interesting in seeing if the carbon fiber material, versus the Luyben plastic, made a difference, or if other factors were at play, say like a light weight ligature (which can be said of either of these two categories of materials) allowed the reed to best vibrate, etc.

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Carbon Fiber Ligature: Essential Accessory For Legere Reeds
Author: Paul Aviles 
Date:   2022-06-15 20:40

Thank you SOOOO much for the question! I had at least three times that amount of verbage to say about the carbon fiber ligatures but there was already enough to keep most of you from reading it already.


If you follow my epiphanies, the last one WAS indeed with plastic ligatures starting with the Luyben. It appears that similarly light yet "firm" materials made a good transmitter for the Legere's natural vibrations. The last "plastic" ligature I was quite pleased with (more so than the Luyben) was the Vientos Vintage Cristaline. That one is a solid ring much like the Avis that also has the Bonade style rails on the interior.


The Carbon Fiber ligatures are like those synthetic ligatures.....ON STEROIDS! Here I must quote the Carbonissimo literature on their product:

"Carbon Fiber has a lower density (1.6 g/cm3) than Brass (8.6 g/cm3), Copper ( 8.9 g/cm3), Silver (10.5 g/cm3) and Gold (19.3 g/cm3) and generates less resonance due to its low resistance to air." [I think they meant MORE resonance, or LESS resistance]

That reads like many highly euphemistic (and unattached from reality) descriptions manufacturers use to sell various products such as mouthpieces and ligatures. However, this time I think the description is spot on. The material is less dense AND rigid, so it is either transferring the energy of the plastic reed with much less loss, OR it is magnifying that energy. One may be quick to say a material such as string is also far less dense than any of those other materials listed, however string has a damping effect and is not well suited to get a cane like sound from Legere.




.................Paul Aviles



Reply To Message
 
 Re: Carbon Fiber Ligature: Essential Accessory For Legere Reeds
Author: Dan Shusta 
Date:   2022-06-16 00:15

Rovner Versa vs Avis 2,3,4,5:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoNttOc46sI



Reply To Message
 
 Re: Carbon Fiber Ligature: Essential Accessory For Legere Reeds
Author: Paul Aviles 
Date:   2022-06-16 00:54

There are some issues with that video (which is posted above). Firstly, Anton Moiseyenko is using cane. I have spoken to several good clarinet players of cane reeds who experience the characteristics of the carbon fiber ligature and yet prefer their trusty ligatures (one preferred the Vandoren Optima). I believe that the jury is out on whether the carbon fiber experience is a worthwhile tweak for cane reeds.


I did get a confirmation from Mr. Moiseyenko that the larger number Avis ligatures are thicker. If you look closely at the comparison (I believe the end series is best for that) you can just make out that the #5 is noticeably thicker than the #2.


Lastly, the sound is either recorded in a reverberant room and/or the sound engineer added some heavy reverb to the the final mix. Either way it is just about impossible to make out meaningful differences from the perspective of the viewer/listener. I trust that Mr. Moiseyenko is speaking frankly when he says there is a noticeable difference from one Avis to the other.



...............Paul Aviles



Reply To Message
 
 Re: Carbon Fiber Ligature: Essential Accessory For Legere Reeds
Author: cigleris 
Date:   2022-06-16 03:30

Paul wrote:

“I believe that the jury is out on whether the carbon fiber experience is a worthwhile tweak for cane reeds.”

As a cane reed player and someone that endorses the use of carbon fibre I can say that it does very much enhance the cane reed through resonance , ring and projection. I believe I mentioned this in our correspondence.

If anyone is interested in this live performance I’m using the Carbonissimo Accel ligature which is a softer version of their Carbonissimo ligature.

https://youtu.be/474IKWYOuMY

Backun have realised the potential of carbon fibre enhancing the clarinet’s voice, using it for the middle joint ring on both the Lumiere and Q series instruments. As well of course a whole clarinet wrapped in carbon fibre, the CG model.

Carbon fibre is certainly worth investigating.

Peter Cigleris

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Carbon Fiber Ligature: Essential Accessory For Legere Reeds
Author: Hunter_100 
Date:   2022-06-16 04:16

Maybe someone could make little carbon fiber stick-on patches, sort of like the mouthpiece teeth cushions to attach to the read backs. Or perhaps incorporate CF into the construction of the synthetic read at the start.

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Carbon Fiber Ligature: Essential Accessory For Legere Reeds
Author: seabreeze 
Date:   2022-06-16 05:34

Peter,

Very attractive performance, excellent blend, phrasing, and control of dynamics.
What mouthpiece were you using with the carbon fiber ligature? And what is the name of the wind ensemble that is accompanying you?

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Carbon Fiber Ligature: Essential Accessory For Legere Reeds
Author: Paul Aviles 
Date:   2022-06-16 06:15

Peter Cigleris,


My apologies to you! I don't mean to suggest all cane reed players are oblivious to the carbon fiber benefits. However, I have sensed less enthusiasm from this camp and want to draw the distinction between the results one gets with carbon fiber on cane reeds vs. synthetic.



As for the idea of incorporating carbon fiber into the Legere itself:


That sounds interesting and yet you can imagine how more more expensive that would make the Legeres (and you DO wind up eventually throwing out a Legere eventually......perhaps at the year of use mark). The suggestion I have of a plate would make it much easier for more manufacturers to get on board quickly and might be even more affective than the very thin, 100% carbon fiber ligatures which are not as full bodied sounding.


I stopped short of endorsing one over the others but it is probably much easier to obtain and use the Jewel Eddie Daniels ligature over the others currently available. It also has the advantage of a fuller sounding fundamental of the note. On the other hand, the less robust sounding carbon fiber ligatures have the advantage of sounding so immediate that it encourages one to play subtly all the time even though they still have a very loud top end to their dynamics as well.




................Paul Aviles



Reply To Message
 
 Re: Carbon Fiber Ligature: Essential Accessory For Legere Reeds
Author: Dan Shusta 
Date:   2022-06-16 06:20

Hunter 100,

Thin carbon fiber sheets are available.
https://shop.protechcomposites.com/thin-sheets/

As to clarinet reeds infused with carbon fibers, Fiberreed makes them but it appears that few players like them.

Info: https://www.thewedgedistribution.com/fiberreed

See reviews on WWBW:

https://www.wwbw.com/search?typeAheadSuggestion=true&typeAheadRedirect=true&sB=r&fromRecentHistory=false&Ntt=Fiberreed+carbon+clarinet+reeds



Reply To Message
 
 Re: Carbon Fiber Ligature: Essential Accessory For Legere Reeds
Author: ClarinetRobt 
Date:   2022-06-16 07:48

Paul:
I had a similar eureka moment with Brad Behn’s Delrin ligature. It just added a whole new dimension to the sound with a Legere Euro Signature. Behn seem to notice my sound quality immediately and the response ranked with any ‘excellent’ cane reed.

The density of delrin is 1.41g/cm3…really close to carbon fiber.
Doesn’t seem anecdotal IMO.

~Robert L Schwebel
Mthpc: Behn Vintage, Lig: Ishimori, Reed: Aria 4, Legere Euro Signature 3.75, Horns: Uebel Superior, Ridenour Lyrique

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Carbon Fiber Ligature: Essential Accessory For Legere Reeds
Author: Paul Aviles 
Date:   2022-06-16 17:39

THANKS ROBERT!


I noticed that I had a response back from Brad last month on a three month old query through FaceBook regarding that ligature. He says that he has a "V" version for the Legere thickness.


Guess I'll be looking into that until I hear back from someone regarding the thicker (#3,#4, and #5 versions of the Avis).


thanks again,



..............Paul Aviles



Reply To Message
 
 Re: Carbon Fiber Ligature: Essential Accessory For Legere Reeds
Author: SecondTry 
Date:   2022-06-16 19:02

Does anyone have a recommendation on where to acquire Vandoren's Carbon fiber Bb clarinet ligature offering in the States?

I'm seeing online quotes near $700!

TIA

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Carbon Fiber Ligature: Essential Accessory For Legere Reeds
Author: Paul Aviles 
Date:   2022-06-16 21:45

That's the other down side to the Vandoren. I bought mine just a month ago. They only had three of each type at their three Vandoren Boutiques (Chicago, New York and Los Angeles). I don't know if they intend to make it a mass market product. But if you are willing to spend $500 on it, that was the going rate I was quoted (and payed) through New York back then.





................Paul Aviles



Reply To Message
 
 Re: Carbon Fiber Ligature: Essential Accessory For Legere Reeds
Author: Dan Shusta 
Date:   2022-06-16 22:30

Want to try and make your own?

https://shop.protechcomposites.com/25mm-high-gloss-carbon-fiber-veneer/

A 4" X 4", 0.25mm thickness sheet is only $2.99!



Post Edited (2022-06-16 22:31)

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Carbon Fiber Ligature: Essential Accessory For Legere Reeds
Author: Paul Aviles 
Date:   2022-06-16 23:08

I would hasten to add that the Carbonissimo is almost identical to the Vandoren in effect and is much easier (and cheaper) to come by. The Carbonissimo is only 124.51 EUROS. This converts to $131.79 (as of this writing). The only inconvenience is that when you place an order with Carbonissimo, they send you instructions for an international bank transfer. The cost of this is around $45 (depending on your bank). So the total with shipping will be around $200.00 US dollars. Certainly less expensive than the Vandoren.



Personally I wouldn't try to make my own ligature unless I was going into the business and was about to go into production of multiple units.




.............Paul Aviles



Reply To Message
 
 Re: Carbon Fiber Ligature: Essential Accessory For Legere Reeds
Author: cigleris 
Date:   2022-06-17 00:59

Thanks Seabreeze, really appreciated. The ensemble is the Gyor Symphonic Band. At that time I was using the PlayNick Tosca mouthpiece.

Peter Cigleris

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Carbon Fiber Ligature: Essential Accessory For Legere Reeds
Author: pewd 
Date:   2022-06-17 21:27

Hopefully we will have the opportunity to try out a few of them at ICA, which is coming up in less than 2 weeks.

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Carbon Fiber Ligature: Essential Accessory For Legere Reeds
Author: Paul Aviles 
Date:   2022-06-18 00:15

PLEASE add any carbon fiber ligatures not mentioned above to the list if you see any at the show. I unfortunately will not be in attendance.





...............Paul Aviles



Reply To Message
 
 Re: Carbon Fiber Ligature: Essential Accessory For Legere Reeds
Author: Hunter_100 
Date:   2022-06-18 01:01

It looks like some online stores have the Eddie Daniels one for <$150 now. Glad they sort of came to their senses about the cost, although it is still 3X more than something like Rovner which is probably the same cost to make.

Edit: my mistake, I realize now that the Vandoren one is the super expensive option, not the ED. That one seems to still be very expensive.



Post Edited (2022-06-18 01:04)

Reply To Message
 Avail. Forums  |  Threaded View   Newer Topic  |  Older Topic 


 Avail. Forums  |  Need a Login? Register Here 
 User Login
 User Name:
 Password:
 Remember my login:
   
 Forgot Your Password?
Enter your email address or user name below and a new password will be sent to the email address associated with your profile.
Search Woodwind.Org

Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale

The Clarinet Pages
For Sale
Put your ads for items you'd like to sell here. Free! Please, no more than two at a time - ads removed after two weeks.

 
     Copyright © Woodwind.Org, Inc. All Rights Reserved    Privacy Policy    Contact charette@woodwind.org