 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: m1964
Date: 2022-05-25 12:13
I had bought double skin pads from JL Smith (Lucien Deluxe) and they seem to be well made and fitted fine.
I wonder if they are worth paying about $3 each vs. $2 for double skin pads from Votaw or Ferrees.
The clarinets to be re-padded are a Selmer Signet (for a friend) and a pre-r13 Buffet that will be used as a spare/outdoor instrument.
Also, would there be any advantage of using leather pads?
I believe that when ordering the stepped skin pads I should use outside pad cap diameter but use inside diameter for leather pads sizing. Is that right?
Thanks
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2022-05-25 17:40
I’ve stopped using skin pads altogether. Leather and synthetic pads last so much longer.
That being said, I believe the skin pads from Ferrees should also be from Pisoni so they should be similar in quality. I haven’t used them in years though since I switched exclusively to leather and synthetic so I could be wrong.
For leather pad sizing yes measure the inside of the pad cup. I also like to round up a bit for a good clean fit. For example, if it measures 15.6mm I would use a 16mm pad. Most manufacturers do this which is why leather pads can appear to have a step when you remove them.
-JDbassplayer
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2022-05-26 00:01
I've also stopped using skin pads in favour of cork and leather. I've been very pleased with Ferree's B32 leather pads. There's just something about the tactile response of these pads that feels so luxurious, facilitating expressive playing.
Food for thought: One instrument in my rotation, a 1960s Pruefer, still sports all but one of its original red leather pads.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2022-05-26 17:46
Jdbass player and Ursa,
Thanks a lot for your feedback.
I do not see B32 pads on Ferree's site but there are B33 White kid leather pads.
I wonder how they well they would cover the tone hole rim since they are effectively 1mm smaller comparing to the skin stepped pads.
I guess I order some and try them "in action'.
Thanks
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2022-05-26 22:56
Maybe it's just a coincidence, but I've found the tan B32s to seal better than the white B33s. Both should be the same in theory, just different colors.
>I wonder how they well they would cover the tone hole rim since they are >effectively 1mm smaller comparing to the skin stepped pads.
They should only be about 0.5mm smaller if you are using a tight fitting pad. The only time that has ever been a problem for me is on oddball instruments like an Orsi Ab clarinet where the instrument was not designed well. 99.9% of the time it will not be an issue unless you are working on a lot of weird instruments. If you only ever fix standard Bb and A clarinets and the occasional Eb I doubt you will run into any problems.
-JDbassplayer
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Author: m1964
Date: 2022-05-28 00:14
Ahh,
thanks again- I do like the white pads better than tan.
Another question: Ferree's website says "Do not forget to use the code to get a discount".
However, I do not see any codes on the website.
Do I need to create an account to get the code?
Thanks
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2022-05-28 13:52
Fit is more important than price. The issue with skin pads is thickness. If they're too thick they won't fit at all. Overall thickness isn't super important, but felt thickness is. Unfortunately manufacturers don't usually publish this. Music Medic thin pads work on Buffets.
With cork or leather it's not a problem because they fit inside the cup. Also be careful about hardness, especially on student horns, or old horns where the toneholes aren't flat.
IMO the way they sell skin pads makes no sense. They tell you to measure the inside of the cup, but what you need is closer to the outside diameter. They tell you the overall thickness, but what you want to know is the the felt thickness. Also, the pad cup depth has nothing to do with the required thickness - a key that needs a thin pad might have a deep cup. It makes it very hard to fit properly without having a ton on hand.
- Matthew Simington
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2022-05-28 14:50
>> Maybe it's just a coincidence, but I've found the tan B32s to seal better than the white B33s. Both should be the same in theory, just different colors. <<
Did Ferree's tell you they are the same? They might be the same, there is nothing that suggests they are not the same in the catalogue, but who knows. Big suppliers order to spec, but maybe the leather is a little different.
I can say that I've tried pretty much all models from Music Center (the company that makes the pads for Ferree's) and haven't found a difference between brown and white clarinet pads, tested with a magnehelic and a plastic "tone hole". Occasionally a few pads don't seal as well as others, even excellent ones like Music Center.
>> They should only be about 0.5mm smaller if you are using a tight fitting pad. <<
It varies and depends on the exact size of the key cup, exact pad diameter, shape of the step (varies even between different models from the same pad maker), etc. Most often it's a 1mm difference.
>> a key that needs a thin pad might have a deep cup. <<
Yes, but...
>> the pad cup depth has nothing to do with the required thickness <<
Not always. Some clarinets have very shallow key cups and do need a thin back, thinner than standard pads.
>> IMO the way they sell skin pads makes no sense. <<
Definitely true. I remember it was very annoying the first time I ordered thin stepped pads... only to find the difference was only the back, with the felt being the same thickness. They didn't work for the instrument I needed them for, and for others they worked the same, just required more glue.
>> It makes it very hard to fit properly without having a ton on hand. <<
Yes, but that can be true for non-stepped pads, or any pad, unless you are familiar with the specific model and how the pads are sized (the latter can change even for the same model from the same maker).
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Author: m1964
Date: 2022-05-29 00:21
Anyone used a leather pad set from Ferrees that has stepped Buffet-style pads?
It is on a more expensive side comparing to their non-stepped leather pads but I feel that the step would cover more of tone hole surface, which should be beneficial on an old clarinet with not perfect tone holes surface.
I cannot find similar pads on JL Smith or Votaw sites.
Thanks
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2022-05-29 03:04
If they're made for Buffet it's worth a try. The added flexibility from a larger pad diameter might help a little (step vs. no step), but that's not the key issue. The key is getting pads that are the right thickness, and then floating them into place correctly, so that they press evenly all around.
The ridge of the tone holes are well within the pad cups (unless the pad cups are WAY out of alignment). Only a very small part of the edge of the tone hole makes contact with the pads. Think of the tone holes more like knife edges than surfaces. Metal instruments actually have thicker tone hole edges than good wooden ones, because the metal has thickness, while good wood tone holes are cut at a sharp (but obtuse) angle. So your leaks are going to be minute little hairline cracks where the pad doesn't contact the very edge.
- Matthew Simington
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2022-05-29 03:08
You should be resurfacing every tone hole you replace a pad on. With level tone holes the B32s seal as well if not better than synthetic pads for me, I’m not sure how much better you can get. Also wider pads will not seal more of the tone hole unless you are creating a really deep seat which is bad. They should only have a light impression after being leveled.
-Jdbassplayer
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2022-05-29 03:26
Quote:
>> the pad cup depth has nothing to do with the required thickness <<
Not always. Some clarinets have very shallow key cups and do need a thin back, thinner than standard pads."
- Good point.
Quote:
>> IMO the way they sell skin pads makes no sense. <<
Definitely true. I remember it was very annoying the first time I ordered thin stepped pads... only to find the difference was only the back, with the felt being the same thickness. They didn't work for the instrument I needed them for, and for others they worked the same, just required more glue.
I thought I was smart and after making some inquiries ordered about 100, most of which haven't fit anything. I still have most of them. They were all too thick for the horns I bought, and also very hard. I think I burned more than I actually installed. Then I started ordering "thin" ones and found the same thing, only I had to use a ton of glue.
Music Medic makes nice extra thin stepped pads with thin felts, but the step is on the wide side - the cardboard is smaller in diameter relative to the overall diameter.
I think Prestini adjusts the felt size with overall thickness, but not a lot, or you can order custom.
- Matthew Simington
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Author: m1964
Date: 2022-05-29 05:55
jdbassplayer wrote:
"You should be resurfacing every tone hole you replace a pad on. With level tone holes the B32s seal as well if not better than synthetic pads for me, I’m not sure how much better you can get. Also wider pads will not seal more of the tone hole unless you are creating a really deep seat which is bad. They should only have a light impression after being leveled."
I do not resurface tone holes because the clarinets I fix are either mine or friends' from my band, and I do not charge them for fixing their instruments (except for the cost of parts needed).
If I need a tone hole fixed I take that clarinet to a tech who has the cutters.
***Some of the older clarinets (Selmer10, CT) had tone holes in better shape than my brand new Prestige. Not that the Buffet was leaking- it was not, but I found one or two tone holes that could use resurfacing ...
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2022-05-29 13:46
>> Anyone used a leather pad set from Ferrees that has stepped Buffet-style pads? <<
I haven't used those specifically from Ferree's, but if they are the same as the stepped leathred pads from Music Center (Deluxe HT model), which makes the pads for Ferree's, then I've tried them. The ones from Ferree's might be ordered to spec and not exactly the same, but the Deluxe HT as far as I know use a synthetic felt that I'm not crazy about for pads (though I use only synthetic felt for adjustments, stopped using real felt). They are good in that they last longer than bladder pads and they are good quality, but I've decided not to stock them.
>> The ridge of the tone holes are well within the pad cups (unless the pad cups are WAY out of alignment). <<
Unfortunately sometimes the keys are not aligned that well. Side to side is not an issue and can (and should) be easily adjusted, but front/back is often not realistic to adjust and impossible to completely solve without lengthening or shortening the key arm, which isn't always an option.
Also non-stepped leather pads generally have a larger radius corner and are not as flat towards their edge compared with bladder pads. Sometimes the tone hole is very close to the edge of a non-stepped pad, and in the worst cases it is actually outside of it (not common, but I've seen that even on a couple of old pro Buffet clarinets and a pro oboe too).
The Deluxe HT stepped leather pads from Music Center are sort of tweener as far as the corner sharpness, sharper than leather, slightly less than bladder.
Synthetic pads are (usually) not stepped but they are the flattest to the edge so essentially "larger" and solve the problem as much as stepped pads, in most cases.
It's pretty rare that it happens but it does happen once in a while.
>> I thought I was smart and after making some inquiries ordered about 100, most of which haven't fit anything. <<
I stock all sizes of at least three models of clarinet pads. Anything less is not efficient enough.
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