 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: NOLA Ken
Date: 2022-05-20 18:02
A fellow community band member and I have come across an interesting matter than I'm going to throw out to see if anyone here can educate us about. We are both older amateurs who, living in New Orleans, of course had to acquire Leblanc Pete Fountain model clarinets in homage to our local hero. (Not the main instrument for either of us.) His is an earlier model, while mine is the model that just preceded the Big Easy model. Both were purchased used from dealers on that auction site.
My friend and I got to comparing notes and discovered that both of our instruments had arrived with unusually short barrels that cause the instruments to play very sharp. His is a Dynamic H barrel (PF signature on the bell), has clearly been cut down, and measures 52mm. While I cannot verify that the Leblanc barrel that came with mine is original, it measures 58.90mm and also appears to have been cut down. (There was also a 64.5mm Selmer barrel of unknown origin in the case when I got it.)
Neither of us are experienced jazz musicians. Is there something about either the jazz idiom or this clarinet model in particular that would explain the use of such short cut-down barrels?
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2022-05-21 01:27
I think the following article reveals some possible answers. Those being: 1) very soft reed strength; 2) the modification of those reeds mentioned in the comments section; 3) the Dremel modifications of his O'brien crystal mouthpieces which could have increased the total volume of his mouthpieces and [although not mentioned in the article] 4) the type or style of his embouchure.
https://clarinet.org/the-style-and-sound-of-pete-fountain/
I distinctly remember playing "flat" more than a few decades ago. After experimenting with the double lip embouchure, the "flat" pitch went away. That convinced me that my normal embouchure formation was the culprit in producing my flat pitched tone.
I always wondered how Pete could hit those high altissimo notes with ease using a soft reed. After looking at the specs of his modified mouthpiece, with a Brand 23 facing, I think I understand now.
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Author: NOLA Ken
Date: 2022-05-21 05:49
Dan,
I'm familiar with that article. For those modifications to be relevant to our two instruments, both previous owners would have had to had their setups modified to be similar to Pete's based on Dr. Harrison's very complex modifications. That seems a stretch given that we have no reason to believe either instrument has any connection to Pete, to anyone with a relationship to him, or to each other besides being the same model. Mine was shipped by someone in Ohio, and I bought it in December, 2016, the same month that the Harrison article was published.
If I'm understanding you correctly, a crystal mouthpiece modified in the fashion described, a similarly-adjusted very soft reed and certain embouchure characteristics could produce a flat tone, necessitating a shorter barrel. Is that a situation that occurs often enough among jazz clarinetists to warrant frequently cutting the barrels down?
One hypothesis is that in both cases previous owners just slipped in shortened barrels for the sale, keeping the originals. The question then becomes, what reason would two players have for cutting any Leblanc Bb barrel that short? And is it more than coicidence for two like instruments to show up with such similarly modified barrels?
I realize that I'm drifting into very vague territory here. To have two such similar instances show up just tickled our joint curiousity. I'm going to take some time to explore our instruments a bit more, but will come back to this later. I have four rehearsals and a gig this week to prepare for (not on the Pete Fountain).
Not (yet) being conversant in mouthpiece geometry, I'm not familiar with the "Brand 23 facing" you refer to. Can you explain?
- Ken
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2022-05-21 06:57
I like rdc's explanation posted on 2012-09-15 under the topic "Feeler and tip measurements Vandoren 5RV":
"Mouthpiece facings are measured using a system developed by Erick Brand, consisting of a glass plate marked off in half millimeters placed on the mouthpiece table. Four (for clarinet) feeler gauges of varying thicknesses are then placed one at a time between the plate and the mouthpiece and the measurements taken where each comes to a stop. The four feeler gauges, in thousandths of an inch, are .0015, .010, .024, and .034. Typical measurements might be 34, 22, 12, and 6 using these gauges. The numbers represent half millimeters, so the actual measurements are 17mm, 11mm, 6mm, and 3mm."
However, in the same thread, Vytas disagreed by writing:
"The system was developed in France long time before Erick Brand.
Mouthpiece facings are measured using a system ADAPTED by Erick Brand."
Now, whoever is correct isn't pertinent to this discussion. The Brand measuring system is pretty much embedded in just about all literature I've read about measuring mouthpiece facings.
So, what does a Brand 23 measurement mean? This is the point on the glass measuring gauge where the 0.0015" feeler gauge stops. (This point is actually 23/2=11.5mm from the tip.) This would be considered an ultra short facing length.
Per Vytas Krass on 2008-11-22 in the "British Mouthpiece Facing" thread:
AMERICAN STYLE LENGTH OF LAY (in millimeters)
15 - short
16 - medium short
17 - medium
18 - medium long
19 – long
20&up – very long
So if the author of the Pete Fountain article is correct, 11.5mm or Brand 23 would be an extremely short facing which coupled with a 0.047" tip opening would absolutely require a very soft reed to be playable.
I'm also quite sure that it is very well established that the shorter the facing...the easier it is to play the altissimo notes.
I hope this helps.
Post Edited (2022-05-21 07:48)
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Author: AndyW
Date: 2022-05-22 14:21
I love Pete's sound - worth pointing out that dozens of his finest albums were recorded before any of the Leblanc large bore clarinets were available- he's pictured on a few earlier LP covers with a Leblanc "LL".
I have two Bb "Dynamic H"s - (basically the same as Leblanc's "Pete Fountain" models), from 1977 and 1983, both have original barrels, length 66mm, although I play on a late 1940s LeBlanc, very similar to an early LL, its barrel length is 67mm.
I'm also intrigued by the assertion "shorter the facing...the easier it is to play the altissimo notes" - I'd love to see some more information on this, as I think of upper altissimo having a very short "sounding length" on the reed i.e. the point of maximal reed flexion is at the very tip of the reed.
-A-
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Author: NOLA Ken
Date: 2022-05-22 19:41
I have learned a lot since returning to music and the clarinet six years ago after being away for over 40 yrs. One of those things is that I like Pete's earlier smoother, more "liquid" style more than his later flashy style. My first encounter with his playing was of course his Lawrence Welk perforances on TV and subsequent albums when I was a youth in Indiana. And I think he must have been playing a LL during that time. (I'd be interested to know when he switched.) I've lusted after a LL ever since learning that, but have made myself stop buying more clarinets. Trying to make up for lost time has gotten expensive.
Andy - do I assume correctly that your Dynamic Hs tune well with the 66mm barrels?
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Author: NOLA Ken
Date: 2022-05-22 21:29
Dan - Thanks very much for taking the time to give me a condensed but thorough lesson on clarinet mouthpiece measurements. I've seen references to those kinds of numbers but had no idea what they meant. More for me to study. Thanks again.
- Ken
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Author: AndyW
Date: 2022-05-22 22:58
Ken asked:
"Andy - do I assume correctly that your Dynamic Hs tune well with the 66mm barrels?"
The reason that I don't play them is that, for me, they are out-of-tune with themselves -
It's hard to notice in any particular register & across the break [I guess I'm reasonably adept at automatically/subconsciously correcting pitch via embouchure on sax and clarinet ], but as soon as I try to play, for example, large 3 octave arpeggios, the highs & lows are noticeably out of tune with each other. I bought them to help me chase down that beautiful Pete Fountain sound, but am left disappointed - I will probably sell one & keep one.
It's possible that another player would learn to correct the pitch "automatically" after many months of exclusively playing the Dynamic H, and perhaps barrel adjustments and mouthpiece choices might help, but it's not my own current plan. I have a similar sized bore on my Selmer CT, but it plays in tune with itself a lot better, if not quite "perfectly".
-Andy-
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2022-05-23 00:18
AndyW,
When I stated: "shorter the facing...the easier it is to play the altissimo notes", I now sense that I could have used a better word than "play". Perhaps I should have said: "shorter the facing...the easier it is to access the altissimo notes."
Perhaps reading through some of the following explanations from various authorities can help me explain that assertion better:
From Walter Grabner: http://www.clarinetxpress.com/facings.html
From Theo Wayne: https://theowanne.com/knowledge/mouthpiece-facings/
From tcnj.edu: https://owd.tcnj.edu/~mckinney/mouthpiece.htm
From Vytas Krass (2nd response): http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=214255&t=214242&v=f
From Dawkes in the UK: “Short facing lengths make a reed feel harder, and long facings make the same reed feel softer.” https://www.dawkes.co.uk/sound-room/top-tips-testing-a-clarinet-mouthpiece/ (3rd paragraph under #3)
From Neffmusic: https://www.neffmusic.com/blog/2008/08/sax-mouthpieces-the-length-of-the-facing-curve/ (His “soft” reed playing characteristics with a short facing match those of Dawkes.)
From Tom Ridenour: http://lindseybresourcefile.weebly.com/uploads/1/3/7/5/13753093/article-understanding_clarinet_mouthpiece_facings.pdf
Actually, my understanding of the last three are quite similar in their explanations, i.e., a soft reed on a short facing "feels stiffer" thus facilitating its ability to vibrate in the altissimo region.
Now, as to playing effort, that, I believe, depends upon size of the tip opening, baffle depth, etc.
Post Edited (2022-05-23 02:19)
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Author: AndyW
Date: 2022-05-23 02:35
Dan - many thanks for providing that information and the links, I’ll read over them in the next few days. Thanks for taking the time.
-A-
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2022-05-23 11:23
NOLA Ken wrote:
> Neither of us are experienced jazz musicians. Is there something about either
> the jazz idiom or this clarinet model in particular that would explain the use of
> such short cut-down barrels?
It is quite common to find short barrels with jazz clarinets or clarinets played by jazz musicians. It has something to do with playing open mouthpieces with a loose, sax-like embouchure. Not only with the Pete Fountain model but also with Selmer Centered Tone and other clarinets that are favoured by jazz musicians.
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Author: NOLA Ken
Date: 2022-05-23 19:24
Jeroen - Thanks for that information. I was sort of suspecting something like that but had nothing on which to confirm or discomfirm it. And no idea that jazz musicians would use barrels that are that short.
AndyW - My Pete Fountain is not the best in tune with itself either, although I've been able to mitigate that somewhat with a Backun fatboy barrel, a couple of different mouthpieces and lipping. I have several older Leblancs that I usually play for their more refined sound and better tuning. Unfortunately, my experience with a Centered Tone and Series 9 taught me that my hands are too small to manage those instruments well. And many thanks for all of the links. I'm going to take some time and learn more about mouthpiece facings.
- Ken
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Author: NOLA Ken
Date: 2022-05-23 19:47
My thanks to Dan for the links. Sorry about that. One should not get online until one is fully awake.
- Ken
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