 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2022-04-23 19:21
A search of the topic on the board, let alone the internet yields no shortage of articles and advice, but I thought I'd revisit this idea given how quickly technology changes.
I'd like to get, at least somewhat, away from paper music. It's much easier to carry a tablet than a bunch of etude books, and nothing blows away in the wind during outdoor concerts when your reading music off an electronic device--to name a few advantages. (Then again something IS affected a lot by rain that wasn't before, lol.)
I was thinking, to save money, to go with one of Apple's older (but still sold by Apple) Ipads. Famous last words I know, but I don't see myself needing the Ipad for much more than storing and reading music, and surfing the web.
1) Does anyone have strong feelings that older Ipads are not large enough or have enough memory for this clarinetists to store his clarinet music? It's not like I'll be storing much of the IMSLP catalog on it. 2) Does anyone swear by a Google, or Samsung, or Microsoft tablet offering instead?
3) I understand that "Forscore" is "the" app for this. Thoughts? 4) Also, can anyone recommend a good foot based page turning appliance?
5) Does anyone have a favorite app for scanning existing paper music into PDF electronic format?
Thanks.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2022-04-23 22:09
SecondTry wrote:
> 1) Does anyone have strong feelings that older Ipads are not
> large enough or have enough memory for this clarinetists to
> store his clarinet music? It's not like I'll be storing much
> of the IMSLP catalog on it. 2) Does anyone swear by a Google,
> or Samsung, or Microsoft tablet offering instead?
I'll ask a really embarrassingly) dumb question for my own information, because I have no experience with Apple-based notepads - do IPads have onboard storage (disk space, either physical disks or solid state)? Or do they rely on cloud storage?
If by memory you mean RAM for running the software, you'll know if there's enough quickly - the pages will load too slowly for page turns to do-able.
> 5) Does anyone have a favorite app for scanning existing paper
> music into PDF electronic format?
>
Every scanner I've ever owned comes with its own TWAIN-based scanning software, and I just use that. As long as there's an option to save to PDF format.
Karl
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2022-04-23 22:17
SecondTry,
While I can't address Forscore for use with classical music - it works great for gigging/leadsheets/etc. It supports gig/set lists, etc., and can be organized/tagged any number of ways to display different lists depending on what you want.
I use extremely old iPads and it works fine. While tempted, I've never jumped into the foot peddle arena (not really necessary for the type of music I generally play).
The only caveat I'd offer - is that reading the charts on a small to normal-sized iPad might require either extremely good eyesight, or some type of magnification - especially for the odd-sized sheets classical music might be found on.
A person can zoom, etc., but I've found it to be pretty impracticable while playing.
Most folks I know who use them professionally opt for the larger iPad size.
At the time I began using Forscore no comparative options existed for PC or other. Now that I've been using Forscore for a while, I haven't really looked back...but it is the only purpose I have for using an iPad.
Fuzzy
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2022-04-24 00:22
kdk wrote:
> I'll ask a really embarrassingly) dumb question for my own
> information, because I have no experience with Apple-based
> notepads - do IPads have onboard storage (disk space, either
> physical disks or solid state)? Or do they rely on cloud
> storage?
Hi Karl:
There appear to be many good videos on Youtube that can prime the novice, but I particularly liked this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nA3gZZNCdvM
I found the presenter's knowledge only surpassed by his affable affect.
>
> If by memory you mean RAM for running the software, you'll know
> if there's enough quickly - the pages will load too slowly for
> page turns to do-able.
It appears that even the Apple Ipad generation 9, the least recent model that Apple still makes available on their website, has more than enough horsepower to store 1000s of music files, load even the largest files within acceptable time frames, and turn pages no slower than the paper kind.
I'm more concerned that after spending the money for one of these devices that I'll find other purposes for it, either within or outside of music, and wished I had purchased a higher end model, even if more money. Two accessories I would consider, both compatible with the "9," are a stylus and a foot pedal for page turning.
Sigh, obsolescence is an absolute state in technology that only differs in one device versus another in how long it sets in, and how much it costs to provide that added "longevity."
The ubiquity of mechanisms to convert paper to PDF I'm comfortable with. I was wondering if people have favorite applications that, for example, shrink files or enhance resolution, etc.
The link provided talks about how the Forscore application can eliminate white space around a page to allow the music to be its maximize size for the tablet that it is displaying that music on.
Thanks for your thoughts, and thanks for yours--and real world experiences Fuzzy. 
Post Edited (2022-04-24 00:23)
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Author: jimk
Date: 2022-04-24 17:52
I don't remember the generation of my iPad Pro, but it's four years old and still going strong. I bought it specifically to be a music reader and for a long time didn't use it for anything else. Then I realized it was easier to pack for business trips and vacations than my notebook computer. I do keep reminding myself it needs to be extraordinarily reliable. The first sign of a problem, like a mysterious restart or refusal to startup, and I'll be replacing it.
I use a second gen Apple pencil and AirTurn page-turning device. These things are nice to have, but I added them after using the iPad for awhile. I replaced the original AirTurn silent pedals with much more substantial BOSS FS-5U foot switches. A woodworker provided a miniature pedal board to hold and protect the AirTurn and its switches. I haven't seen the need for a QWERTY keyboard. My iPad is Wi-Fi only - no cell connection.
The active part of my library requires less than 60 GB of storage. Pieces I don't expect to use in the near future are available in Dropbox and can be easily copied to the iPad.
Forscore meets my needs so well I haven't looked at other apps in a long time. I do pay the small extra charge to get additional symbols.
Drawbacks? Occasional problems with the Bluetooth connection to the pedals on start-up, solved by repairing the devices. Concern about the iPad falling from a music stand, solved by leaving the iPad on my seat if I'm not in it. Concern about a software update not working, solved by preventing automatic updates. Concern about forgetting to charge the iPad, which I don't think has happened yet. I do carry a charger to performances.
Post Edited (2022-04-24 17:57)
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Author: davyd
Date: 2022-04-24 19:10
At a recent orchestra rehearsal, a tablet user discovered the hard way that they were missing a page, and thus couldn't play their solo. (All the paper had been left at home.)
At a recent band rehearsal, a tablet battery died, leaving the player tacet for the rest of the evening. (Again, all the paper was at home.)
I suppose these devices have their uses, but I remain skeptical.
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Author: marcia
Date: 2022-04-24 19:54
I have known a device to decide to do an update just before it was to be needed. Fortunately paper came to the rescue.
And yesterday I heard about a person hitting the wrong pedal (fortunately at a rehearsal) and ending up in a different piece.
Many years ago, back in the days of palm pilots, I was trying to set a rehearsal date with three other people. My pen was poised above my pocket diary. All the others had palm pilots, and every one of them had some issue that prevented them from working.
I too remain skeptical.
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2022-04-25 23:49
Davyd,
All good points.
I've seen folks forget pages of their paper sheet music at home too (or reeds, or ligature, or mouthpiece, etc.)
I'm not certain user error or inattention (or even lack of proficiency) is an accurate measure of a product's capability/usefulness or potential.
I do think having a backup plan (either paper or another device) might be useful though.
One plus for these devices is that (if the print is large enough to read) - the self illuminating aspect makes for easy reading in low light situations.
Fuzzy
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-04-26 23:01
I think these look quite nice for music. They're epaper like a kindle, but A4.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sony-DPT-RP1-Digital-Paper-System/dp/B072DXXXN1
I've got to stick to paper, because I don't get on with LED lights. I also can't look at other people's screens in the distance, so if I was at the back of an orchestra and other people used an ipad, I'd be in trouble.
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Author: gwie
Date: 2022-04-27 22:59
I've used an iPad Pro 12.9 in every single concert I've conducted or played for band, orchestra, and musical theater since 2018, including summer festivals where I directed dozens of concertos with piano and string soloists, without issues. Last night, I joined a community orchestra for their first in-person rehearsal since the initial pandemic lockdown, and ended up covering a different part than I originally went in for--luckily I had every single part with me!
To each their own.
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2022-04-28 05:17
For those who use electronic readers, I've been contemplating--in an effort to save some money--buying the plain old Apple Ipad (as opposed to the Air, Pro or Mini), orienting it sideways, and having it display, with little size reduction as a result of this sideways orientation, about half a page of music at at time.
This is unlike gwie's aforementioned 12.9" diagonal ipad Pro screen.
I figure I can acquire a foot pedal to page advance and reverse and set the device to scroll a few lines through the music at a time.
Do people think this a doable scenario?
It stinks that the largest screen ipad also has all the most advanced features I don't need. Musicians, many of whom don't have major $ to spare, could use an Ipad with a bigger screen and less powerful guts.
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Author: gwie
Date: 2022-04-28 06:15
Because we don't need that much processing power to read sheet music, I would suggest looking at the first or second generation iPad Pro 12.9 if you want something with that screen size, which is $200-$300 on the secondary market.
When I share stands with someone in orchestra, I do turn it into landscape orientation instead of portrait to get much bigger notes on the screen, and use the pedal to advance the screen. It works great!
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Author: concertmaster3
Date: 2022-04-28 07:18
I'll chime in:
I've been using digital music for 10+ years now. It is a VERY rare occasion that I'm not reading from my tablet. I've used most of the options except Ipad (I'm not an Apple fan...)
Hardware: I currently use a Samsung Galaxy Tab S7 FE. Previously, I used a Microsoft Surface Pro 4, and before that, a Samsung Note Pro 12 (and a Note 10, and a ASUS tablet that I forgot the name of...It's been 10 years). I liked the Galaxy Note series because the S-Pen (wifi stylus) was stored inside of the tablet. The Tab series Samsung tablets don't have the internal storage, but there are cases that help with that.
The Surface was nice, but I found the battery to drain much quicker than I was comfortable with. The Galaxy tablets last a long time!
App: I use MobileSheets on both Android and Windows platforms. It is a great app, and has some features not on forScore, especially in annotations.
Pedals: All of the pedals on the market should work with all of the tablets: they just connect through bluetooth. I like for my pedal to have some kind of feedback when it presses. The AirTurn DUO is what I use now. I don't think I'd like the AirTurn PedPRO because it lacks that feeling of pushing down to know that I actually hit the pedal.
Ron Ford
Woodwind Specialist
Performer/Teacher/Arranger
http://www.RonFordMusic.com
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2022-04-28 08:15
gwie wrote:
> Because we don't need that much processing power to read sheet
> music, I would suggest looking at the first or second
> generation iPad Pro 12.9 if you want something with that screen
> size, which is $200-$300 on the secondary market.
>
> When I share stands with someone in orchestra, I do turn it
> into landscape orientation instead of portrait to get much
> bigger notes on the screen, and use the pedal to advance the
> screen. It works great!
Thanks for your thoughts Gwie but I must admit to being a bit surprised. Here's why.
Here https://www.joshlayne.com/iPadScreenSizes.pdf you will find a piece of paper with the different size ipads. It's a link on the Youtube video I linked above.
Turning a Ipad pro on its side can take a 8.5" wide page and display it in about 10.25". But with an ordinary Ipad it's about 7.25"--which isn't much smaller than the width of a printed page, especially since apps like ForeScore can remove white space on a page's margins.
With either device, turning it sideways won't give you the whole page.
So I was wondering, if it's just me reading from the stand, do you still think buying somebody's refurbished ipad pro is a better deal than my buying a new ipad, with apple warranty and all?
I can see where your blowing up the page for two players is handy but I'm looking to read notes not much smaller than the printed page. They need not be bigger.
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Author: gwie
Date: 2022-04-29 01:35
When I'm on clarinet or saxophone I'm reading it myself, in which case I prefer portrait mode with the iPad Pro 12.9. After eliminating the margins, either editing the PDF before or using the built-in feature in ForScore, most parts are supremely readable, in most cases larger and clearer than they would be printed on standard letter-size paper.
When I'm in the violin or viola section and sharing a stand, depending on how well my stand partner is able to see the screen, I sometimes will change to the landscape mode and advance the page partway, especially for an unfamiliar score (usually new works).
While my HS students certainly have made do with the smaller iPad models, I'm getting to the age where the bigger the screen is, the better the experience is going to be, so I would opt for size over any of the other newfangled features. In fact, if they make a bigger model at some point, like 16" or whatever, I will totally go for it.
I've started traveling again for conducting engagements, and I much prefer bringing the iPad Pro 12.9 on trips instead of an entire laptop. With the integrated keyboard cover, the tablet is powerful enough to do everything I need it for on the road. I also have the cellular + wifi version, so I don't have to worry about there always being free wifi in public places!
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2023-05-22 18:55
Hi All,
This thread is a little over a year old and I am sure there is more current info on this topic.
I am about to take the plunge into reading from a tablet for both ensemble as well as quartet music. I checked with several of my music pals who are using iPad Pros; they all have the 12.9 screen and use foot petals. Thus, I'm pretty convinced that is the way to go.
My desktop has a 512 SSD which is more than adequate for my needs, so I'll get that size SSD with a new 12.9 iPad. Are there any better software and pedal options these days?
Hank
PS The best part is that my wife is getting this for my birthday in July. I'm a lucky man.
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2023-05-22 21:02
Attachment: musicreader.pdf (209k)
Hi All:
Since first posting this question I have solely read music digitally from an Amazon Fire tablet and am very happy with this decision.
By no means do I wish to disparage those whose have taken the Apple products route to effect same. Apple makes great, albeit expensive products, their 2nd generation (let alone 1st generation) largest iPad, reconditioned, being demonstrably more expensive than my new Amazon fire.
If you use your tablet for other things in which Apple shines (I have utterly no horse in this race) it may be worth it. If you need to see an entire page of music at one time, or are a piano player who reads multiple lines concurrently an Amazon Fire, which comfortably only displays about 1/2 page at a time, and full size Apple Ipad is for you.
I cannot begin to tell you how happy I am moving off of paper music. In my one tablet, the width of a magazine, I easily store every piece of clarinet music I own, backed up, and just as accessible on my PC.
Attached are my journeys with non-compensated links to products.
Post Edited (2023-05-22 21:04)
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Author: lydian
Date: 2023-05-24 21:08
Nice write up. After a decade or so on several different platforms, I'm currently using a 10" Android tablet with Mobile Sheets as well. Great compromise for those on a budget while still have something readable. The only thing I would change is the page turner recommendation. These days there are many much more affordable turners like the $20 CubeTurner available on Amazon, eBay, etc.
Personally, I went digital several years ago and have used my tablet in about 10 bands with several thousand charts in my library. That would be much more difficult to manage with paper.
The only downsides to me, after getting accustomed to page turns, are reading in bright sunlight and what to do about a backup in case of failure.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2023-05-24 21:21
Lydian,
I am concerned about that need for backup as well. A clarinet friend has the 12.9 iPod Pro but also has a smaller Amazin Fire that he uses as a backup. The screen is smaller but...
It just so happens that I too have a smaller Fire Tablet already, so I'll experiment a little.
Hank
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Author: lydian
Date: 2023-05-24 21:57
I do something similar using a Kindle Paper White. The screen is quite small, but works ok in an emergency and works in direct sunlight.
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2023-05-25 04:21
I got my Amazon Fire HD 10 Plus on sale for $119.99.
Buying a backup: not my favorite thing to do, but its costs pails in comparison to buying a backup Apple product.
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Author: spikey1973
Date: 2023-05-27 03:31
To all
Nowadays 13" + / near A4 / letter sized e-ink tablets running android with acces to playstore are available
Just my 5cents
Kind greats
Matthieu .
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Author: lydian
Date: 2023-05-27 08:13
I would love such a tablet if they didn’t cost a fortune. I can buy seven 10” tablets for the same money as one 13.3” e-ink tablet. That’s a lot of money for 3”, especially considering how many gigs I’d have to play to break even as an amateur who only has 30 gigs in a good year.
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Author: spikey1973
Date: 2023-05-27 18:47
@ Lydian,
yeah that is definately an issue. I (and most of the world feels) the same, think is, the patents on monochrore e-ink screens have expired. But the production is quite expensive and the market realitively small (mainly because it is so expensive). So we are in a bit of a spiral.
I don't have one myself either, I'd wis though. I love the Remarkable 2.
Kind greats
Matthieu
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Author: lydian
Date: 2023-05-27 21:08
I do love my little 7” e-ink Kindle that I got on sale for $40. It’s my backup. Hard to read music from, but better than nothing.
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Author: Djudy
Date: 2024-05-15 20:11
Last night at rehearsal I was embarassed to find that I'd zapped the addition of two new scores, announced in the director's last email, to be read tonight ! Luckily I had my mobile phone (a samsung) and was able to find the email, hit the link to the google drive and read - squintingly - the scores in landscape mode off the phone, an experience I plan never to repeat (the forgetting as well as the reading, the boss gave me a good hard look).
But at the same time, reading from a screen in a pinch like that, even a small one, was also a revelation : the print was sharp and clearly backlit and I had no trouble what so ever reading the score. I should note that I've been struggling with vision issues and this year had to get a specific set on monofocal eyeglasses to be able to cope with reading while playing a floor-pegged (clarinet alto and bass) instrument that limits head movement to adjust focus on the page. Lighting is also an issue, and glare if I use plastic notebook pages to protect inkjet printed sheets. If a small phone can be this comfortable, a full size tablet could be a real improvement for me and so I am now going to seriously look into this.
A big thank you to secondtry for the video link to the harpist that had the good sense to provide samples to help appreciate how the score page would compare on different size screens. I also found this one that talks more bluntly about storage and access considerations for apple products, which are important for me being a multi-instrumentalist with a bunch of scores and already on android (but my current tablet from 2016 is on it's last leg, very slow and has never been useful for reading) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGNMyo2vzM8 (sorry couldn't find out the date of this video so maybe things have evolved ?)
On thing I haven't seen mentioned is weather proofing/water resistance. We play a number of concerts outside in the summer and war memorial ceremonies throught the year and rain is always a consideration. Any experiences on that aspect as well as general robustness would be appreciated. How to balance the trade offs between screen size, weight and resistance to wear and tear on the bandstand? And what are major instrument ensembles using now?
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Author: lydian
Date: 2024-05-15 22:30
I've been primarily paperless for about 15 years. I've had many tablets in that time. I've found 12-13" is the sweet spot for me, a middle aged person with reading glasses. Smaller is doable, but uncomfortable, so those have been relegated to spares. Larger is too heavy and bulky. I've also found Android and Windows tablets to be just as good as iPad and far cheaper than even used ones. My current Lenovo P12 is my all-time favorite. At 12.6" and less than $300 new, it's pretty close to a far more expensive 12.9" iPad. I'm writing this post on it right now. Of course iPad is also great, but not in the cards for me unless I win the lottery.
I've also used all the major music reading software, and prefer MobileSheets to all, including Forscore, which is also very good. MS is just more intuitive and powerful and meets all my needs as a gigging musician. I find Forscore a bit more difficult to manage.
A good pedal is also important. I've tried them all, and my favorite happens to also be the cheapest, Cube Turner. It's cheap, sturdy, simple, connects instantly, great battery life, and I can feel the buttons, unlike most pedals.
I rarely scan music, but the camera on my tablet usually suffices for that, otherwise my home office printer/scanner. PDFs can be found for most of my music including method books, fake books, and sheet music I've purchased or written myself. I don't need or use a dedicated scanning program.
Someone mentioned accidentally changing songs. Yes, I've done that. But these days, I can configure the software to make that impossiblle to do via my pedal. I find landscape less than ideal and read the vast majority in portrait, utilizing half page turns. That gives me plenty of room for error and lets me partially see both pages at once. I rarely if ever get lost anymore. But the pedal does take a little practice. Expect it to take a few weeks to get your bearings.
After a decade of never having a failure, I'm finally confident enough to leave my paper backup at home. I do have a second, smaller tablet in my backpack, ready to go just in case.
At last count, I had about 20 fake books, a dozen method books and about 5000 individual tunes stored on my tablet for the 5 bands I regularly play in. Even that does not require a great deal of storage. It's less than the storage required for a couple of movies. I wish I could drag my main big band into the 20th century, but they won't give up paper. Most of my other bands are paperless now.
Bottom line, you can't really go wrong with a large iPad. But Android/Windows can work just as well for a lot less money. Since you're only practicing and not gigging, most of the potential performance related issues don't apply. So you have a bit more leeway in terms of gear and software choices and less risk in case of failure.
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Author: Djudy
Date: 2024-05-16 14:02
Thank you lydian, brilliant ! You've helped me a lot and I'm looking forward to going paperless asap.
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Author: lydian
Date: 2024-05-16 21:06
Apologies for the spam. I have no connection to Lenovo besides owning one myself, but they still send me emails and are having a killer sale right now. The one with the keyboard (not needed for music) included basically gives you a great music tablet and a full blown laptop. This is much cheaper than I paid for mine separately. Pen is included with all of them and works great for annotations. The highest priced one has twice the storage. But that's not necessary for music. I'm only using 30% of the storage on the small one or 15% on the big one.
https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/p/tablets/android-tablets/lenovo-tab-series/lenovo-tab-p12/len103l0018
My entire sax quartet bought this very tablet a while back and Mobile Sheets. Now it's super easy to share a library of tunes and set lists. I could even sync all the page turns if I wanted (but I don't). Even though it's Andriod, the iOS users had no trouble figuring it out.
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The Clarinet Pages
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