 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: tyleman
Date: 2022-04-01 14:30
This may seem like an odd question, but I'm wondering about it after an acquaintance of mine bought a brand new Buffet E12F. I've got several nice vintage instruments he could've bought from me for less, but he seemed determined to buy new.
Personally I've always preferred used, partly because of the price but also based on information I read some years back that the wood of older instruments was much better than what's available today.
I very much appreciate the views of the members here, and thanks in advance!
(btw, I tried to see in there was a similar post in the past but couldn't find anything.)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2022-04-01 19:07
Attachment: r4430.jpg (330k)
Attachment: selmerseries9clarinets.jpg (702k)
Attachment: masspacher.jpg (151k)
I did try to make someone see reason that it was much better to buy a used pro level clarinet for less than the cost of a brand new student level wooden clarinet (Buffet E12F or Yamaha 450), only he was blinded by the belief that the more expensive instrument is better because of the higher price and it's new, even though it wasn't really an upgrade on his Selmer Sterling clarinet he'd had for several decades.
Similarly with someone with a Couesnon Monopole Conservatoire clarinet who thought it wasn't worth having overhauled because of its age and he was considering buying a brand new student level wooden clarinet.
There's no way I could afford to buy a brand new pro level clarinet with full Boehm keywork or similar, which is why I prefer to buy them used and do them up for myself for a fraction of the cost. I dread to think how much a full Boehm would cost nowadays if they were still offered by Buffet, Leblanc and Selmer.
Attached are some clarinets I bought used off eBay and restored for my own use - a 1958 Selmer CT full Boehm, a set of Selmer Series 9 full Boehm A, Bb and Eb clarinets and a Masspacher C clarinet which I added the LH Ab/Eb lever and LH forked Eb/Bb mechanism to (pictured without the bell and barrel).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2022-04-01 19:12)
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2022-04-01 22:01
I hope my current 23 year old R13 will last me until I give up playing. If not, I will buy used based solely on the ridiculous price of a new Buffet (mine cost $2,000 US in 1999). Student models are another case. I bought a new Selmer for $165 C in 2018-- don't know why so low, but student models are not much more than in 1980--like, still $400. Go figure-- probably because a pro is willing to pay so much.
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2022-04-02 02:10
I think the OPs question is a "two parter." The first part perhaps seeks to explain why we buy new, and the second part being perhaps "should we."
We like shiny new things. We like that the new stuff of the world is generally less likely to cause the problems of aged product, or at least that's the hope. Plus there's often a warranty with "new" if the "fit hits the shan."
But such principles don't fully hold in a clarinet world in which some of the best instruments and wood used to make them are from years gone by.
It seems the Harold Wright didn't necessarily seek out new clarinets. https://youtu.be/AO7-Ur8BWeQ?t=194 But then again, unlike the relatively young and inexperienced player that might buy an E12F, a pro would know what to look for in a used instrument where a budding player's lack of intelligence on such things might hope that "new" and "less chance for problems" would be synonymous: much that in the clarinet world those aren't always the case.
I'd never buy new, but that's me. I wouldn't because not only is used instrument cheaper, but at least when it comes to African Blackwood instruments, older may be better. Then again I know how to not only identify problem horns, but the cause of many of those problems and if the remedy isn't to difficult, on top of doing a lot of my own benchwork.
Then again, I'm no less vain than the next person in liking "shiny things," having at times sent the keys on horns I've loved out for replating--but only if the undelying instrument was worth it.
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Author: fromsfca
Date: 2022-04-02 04:02
I bought 2 new clarinets: a Selmer bass for $500 in 1971 and a Buffet S1 in 1972.
I’ve since bought and sold many clarinets…now playing a 2012 (or so) Selmer St Louis….excellent keywork, intonation and sound. Looks like new, plays as good as any pro level horn for a third the cost.
That’s why I buy used.
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Author: johnwesley
Date: 2022-04-02 06:35
Wow! Chris P, that full Boehm Eb is exceptional. Never gave it much thought but would not have expected an Eb to come "fully equipped". That Masspacher is awesome. You do excellent work. Do you overhaul other people's clarinets too?
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Author: tyleman
Date: 2022-04-02 12:51
Chris P. - thanks for the photos of your beautiful clarinets! And thanks for replying to my question. I have a one piece circa 1910 Penzel-Mueller full Boehm. It's a lovely clarinet!
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Author: tyleman
Date: 2022-04-02 12:57
Second Try - I think you've hit the nail on the head - the desire for shiny things, the "new is better" mindset. I'm not that way at all! All my clarinets are used and I love them to bits. I played the Buffet that my friend bought and thought it was ok - but just that. I showed him my old 100+ year old Jean Martin with it's repaired cracks, and played it - but it made no impression - except for the curved front speaker key!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2022-04-02 18:52
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My CT full Boehm was a wreck when I bought it back in the early '00s (I was the only one that bid on it), but I saw it had potential. I dread to think how much it would've cost if I had to pay for all the work to be done to get it back into top playing form as I had all the metal parts silver plated as they were unplated and looking a real mess.
Fortunately it had stainless steel screws throughout as it had been kept in damp conditions which would've caused steel screws to rust up solid in the keywork. This is a closeup of the keywork before I restored it - you can just see how dry the wood was and it had white mineral deposits leeching out from the wood:
https://www.woodwindforum.com/clarinetperfection/galleryclar/Keywork/FB/05.jpg
I also bought a beaten-up early '60s Buffet Eb clarinet (see attachment) which I also had replated and added an adjusting screw to the throat G# key. I should've added a LH Ab/Eb lever to it, only I swapped it for a set of Selmer St.Louis clarinets recently. I had already bought the Series 9 full Boehm Eb, so wasn't using the Buffet Eb at all.
I also do overhauls, restorations as well as keywork modifications for anyone who wants it, mostly working on oboes/cors, clarinets, saxes and piccolos.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2022-04-02 21:27
At least for high level and professional players, but occasionally for others, there's a very common reason to buy new, possibly the most common, but I don't think it was mentioned.
First, you're buying a specific clarinet. When a clarinet is the right one it usually outweighs other differences such as cost. It's why a lot of players try many clarinets and choose one, not randomly order a used/cheaper one of the same model.
Second, and this often goes along with the first reason, you usually want to buy it and play it, not get into a project. The clarinet needs to be at least in a reasonable condition that would allow you to assess it, which many used ones aren't really. You might need to try one at a time, at different places and times, hoping it's in decent condition every time, etc. Used ones available are often very variable. The chance of running into what you are looking for, in some areas, can even be extremely small.
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Author: Bennett ★2017
Date: 2022-04-03 00:18
I think something has been overlooked. The number of brick and mortar music stores that offer instruments has diminished ever since the internet began selling music instruments. Hence the ability to actually try out instruments, both new and old, before you buy has diminished When you buy a used instrument off the web you really don't know what you are getting into. If you have no idea how to repair or adjust what you are buying, unlike so many on this web site that have responded, it's no wonder that you might choose new with a reasonable expectation that it works well and has no major expensive flaws.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2022-04-03 03:56
A lot of brand new Buffet clarinets I see have a lot of problems from the word go. And what with the high price for many of them, really shouldn't be the case.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2022-04-03 23:43
Chris P: Are you of the opinion that clarinets "blow out"? People seem to disagree about this. If they do "blow out", what is this due to? -mileage, lack of maintenance? ...playing too many wrong notes on them? ha, ha!
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2022-04-04 02:22
I've never experienced them to be "blown out" (whatever that even means) in any way and never had any problem playing them alongside other players with modern Buffets, Leblancs, Yamahas or Selmers. I did let Buffet RC player try one of my CTs and he found it far too powerful for his liking.
I can only assume the bore on those "blown out" instruments has become distorted or enlarged from using dirty mops or pullthroughs which have collected dust or grit from being chucked back in the case or in the case cover pocket after mopping out or left lying on the floor whilst playing (which I've seen people doing) which has worn the bore over time.
In that case, they're worn out as there's no physical way the bore of any wind instrument can experience excessively high air pressure to do any damage as they're either full of holes or open at one end which will dissipate any air pressure within a fraction of a millisecond.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: hans
Date: 2022-04-04 06:44
Re: "blown out", Larry Naylor offers a description on his web site:
http://www.naylors-woodwind-repair.com/Publications/deterioration-of-grenadilla-instruments/Page-2/
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Author: m1964
Date: 2022-04-04 11:02
Ruben wrote:
"Chris P: Are you of the opinion that clarinets "blow out"? People seem to disagree about this. If they do "blow out", what is this due to? -mileage, lack of maintenance? ...playing too many wrong notes on them? ha, ha!"
I am not sure what constitute a "blown out" clarinet but I had seen two examples of fine clarinets that were unplayable.
One was a Buffet R13 Prestige A clarinet that I bought from a music store knowing that it had intonation issues but hoped that I could still work with those.
The clarinet had beautiful tone and was very easy to blow but was absolutely out of tune, not only inside the same register but between the registers too. Like 20c off on some notes. Was also flat and would not tune to 440 Hz.
The sales representative told me that the clarinet was a trade-in from a military band. I suspect it was travelling all around the US and maybe out of the country in a military jet, next to weapons and supplies, which most likely distorted its bore.
My thread about it here: http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=476623&t=476592
I also once tried an RC Prestige that could be called "blown-out", not from playing too many wrong notes but way too many good ones
It belonged to a soloist, graduate of Juilliard (he plays in Europe). The silver plating has worn off on all the keys! Sounded much worse than an average R13 I compared it to.
It probably was the case Chris P. described, when a clarinet is swabbed so many times that the bore gets distorted.
So, reading about these two clarinets could make someone buy a new student model instead of a used pro-level instrument.
Post Edited (2022-04-04 11:08)
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Author: ruben
Date: 2022-04-04 20:02
Chris P: Even if the instrument has been carefully looked after, wouldn't countless hours of it getting damp from the condensation of one's breath affect the wood? Your thoughts on the matter please. Subjectively, I do find that my A clarinet is in a more youthful state then my B-flat one, presumably because it's been played a lot less, though they were born at exactly the same time: twins, actually. Some people claim that if a good player has been playing an instrument, it responds better than one that has been played by a bad player. This, of course, is a bit mystical...
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: LFabian
Date: 2022-04-04 20:06
I’m of the belief that the lack of bore oiling and leaving moisture inside the clarinet cause a clarinet to blow out. I swab each clarinet twice. The abs once. The tenons are dried up and last but not least, the swabs are laundered so that nothing is left in the bore. If you cleaned a weapon, you know what I talking about.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-04-04 23:03
I bought a brand new clarinet. Mainly it was because I was aware that even tone holes can degrade in an older clarinet and I wanted to be sure of getting a really tight seal so as to be leak-free.
Even with my brand new professional instrument I had to get it repadded twice to get it to where I needed it to be for grade 3 (legato transitions across the break).
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Author: ruben
Date: 2022-04-05 00:05
L Fabian: what do you use for bore oil, please?
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2022-04-05 03:25
If a clarinet is well maintained and serviced regularly, then that will go a fair way in retaining its playing characteristics.
With regards to toneholes degrading over time, then look at brand new pro level Buffet tonehole crowns as they're far from perfect from the word go. They're not alone as most wooden clarinets have less than perfect tonehole crowns as most will have imperfections of some sort or other - both natural or accidental. Large volume producers don't spend a lot of time during finishing and many problems get overlooked.
Provided they pass the minimum quality control criteria to get them out the factory door, to the shops and then to the end buyer, that's all most companies are interested in. Corners are cut and the attention to detail once seen on clarinets up until the 'late '60s and '70s is no longer evident on most big brand instruments made since.
If you are buying brand new, then the best thing you can do is have the instrument refinished - in other words, a full rebuild from the ground up to be sure every tonehole crown is perfect, every tenon is a good fit in its socket, every key is a good fit between the pillars and point screws and also to be sure quality materials have been used which are worthy of the price you initially paid for a pro level instrument. Sometimes this can't always be achieved because of the stupid designs of some locking point screws which leave hardly any internal threads in the pillars.
Whenever I get a relatively new Buffet in for its first service after the guarantee period has expired, I make changes for the better, such as reinforcing the nylon pins in the LH levers, respringing the F#/C# key with a longer and heavier gauge needle spring set into the pillar, rebuilding the middle tenon rings so the joints don't wobble, replacing the nylon throat G# adjusting screw with a stainless steel one with a nylon tip, using better quality pads and installing them with shellac and machining the tenon slots flat and smooth instead of leaving them grooved or wavy. Although some features on new Buffets are also seen on older ones from the mid '80s and earlier, they're generally much nicer clarinets to work on and you can see there was a sense of pride during their manufacture and finishing if they still have their original pads and key corks.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Max S-D
Date: 2022-04-05 03:41
I was fortunate that my parents bought me a brand new R13 (picked from a handful of examples) as a high school graduation present when I went off to college and I anticipate I will play it for the rest of my life. When I'm still playing that clarinet at age 70, I don't think it will have much mattered whether they could have saved a few hundred or even a thousand dollars on that purchase. The value of an instrument is in the playing.
As clarnibass said above, if a clarinet is the right one, it's the right one. From that perspective, if you fall in love with a particular brand spanking new Buffet Tradition (or Selmer Privilege, Yamaha CSVR, Backun Lumiere, etc), maybe nothing else will do it for you quite like that one. Especially since no two wooden clarinets are going to play exactly the same, if money is not a barrier, then that exact instrument would be the best purchase, regardless of whether or not it offers the best "bang for the buck."
Sure, a used R13 can be had for well under two thousand dollars, but if you just fell in love with a specific R13 at the music store, there's no guarantee that the used one you buy online will be much like it.
BUT, of course, most of us live in the real world and money is a consideration. We usually aren't comparing a used R13 to a new R13, it's the used R13 vs new E12F (substitute in your preferred examples) as mentioned above. Unfortunately, I see so many young players (or, rather, their parents) buying these instruments because they have a sense in their minds that instruments are like cars and will wear out over time. I know a local sax tech near me describes the goal of his full-rebuild overhauls as "better than new" and I believe it.
While I don't begrudge anyone buying new, I do think that a lot of people (especially young players) get ideas in their head about only new stuff being good enough that they let that be an artificial barrier to entry.
I will probably not buy a new clarinet or especially saxophone again in my lifetime.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2022-04-05 10:07
One innocent question that comes to mind when a used clarinet is on the market: why are they selling it off? When I have sold my instruments, it is because they weren't all that good.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2022-04-05 23:35
I know someone who was swayed by a brand new set of Leblanc Concerto clarinets when they were first launched in the '90s and he part exchanged his trusty set of Dynamic-H clarinets for them.
At the time he thought he was doing the right thing and maybe he was also coerced by the music shop owner, only later down the line it wasn't to be the case as he found them limited by comparison.
He still regrets selling his Dynamic-Hs and more recently bought a set of Buffet RC clarinets which he's had more than his fair share of trouble with since the word go - even the guarantee work carried out where he bought them from was shoddy.
I reckon if he could track down his old set of Dynamic-Hs, he'd snap them up in a heartbeat.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-04-06 02:38
I think that clarinet buying can also be a bit like buying a used car, and a real minefield for inexperienced people. By buying new, I hoped to side step that, and it has kind of worked for me, in that the shops and technicians no longer put more pressure on me to buy a different instrument.
My new instrument doesn't sound as magic as my old one, but my old one was terribly out of tune, so I think it's kind of swings and roundabouts maybe. I'm not very sure. I think buying a clarinet is really pretty complicated actually.
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Author: donald
Date: 2022-04-06 11:19
I sold an old late 60s R13 A clarinet that had been customised by Hans Moennig. At the time I didn't like the (quit shiney) nickel keyword (my dry fingers slipped around too much) and the intonation was amazing except for a super sharp high A-B-C. I've tried several times to hunt down the buyer, but failed darn it. I'd buy it back for twice what I sold it for.
On the other hand, the Yamaha Custom YCL85 (in A) I sold in 1992 came back - one of my wifes students now owns it. Has some virtues, but when I play it I am reminded why I sold it. Not going back there today thanks...
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Author: m1964
Date: 2022-04-08 10:19
Chris P.,
where do you get the G# adjusting metal screw with a plastic tip?
On one of my Buffets, I need to re-adjust that screw every 2-3 weeks (slightly, but still...)
Thank you
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-04-08 12:01
I just had a thought.
It seems as through we are all going to be trying harder at buying used clarinets in future, in order to avoid wasting new trees.
If that is the case, might it be worth us putting together a list of things that less experienced buyers should check in a new clarinet, just like they have for people buying used cars? This would have helped me a lot when I was buying an instrument.
I mean things like:
Buy a mp that you are happy with and take that along, to try on the bodies of all the different instruments that you try. (So you don't catch a million bugs from all the used clarinets, and so you get a consistent test.)
Then:
- Check the pitch on the full range of the instrument against a digital tuner.
- Does it play in tune with itself across the range?
(How much room for maneouvre is there in this? I mean no clarinet plays exactly in tune does it?)
- Does it play in tune with the other instruments that you wish to play with?
(Old high pitch instruments v new low pitch)
- Check that the tenons don't wobble.
- Check if you can do x,y, and z important acrobatic maneouvres.
(for me this would be the legato transitions across the break, but there must be other important things)
- Do a leak test. (how?)
- What does the tone sound like to you?
(Different people may prefer different styles of sound.)
- What does the tone sound like to the person you live with, who is going to be doing most of the listening?
- Does the instrument smell or taste weird?
- Are the corks, pads, springs, tone holes in good condition?
(details of how to test this?)
- What does your technican charge to fix the condition?
- Do your hands fit the instrument, and can you easily reach all the levers?
- Do the levers move easily and spring back smartly?
- Do the pinkie keys notes sound easily and reliably even when you are in a massive hurry?
Are you paying for the name, and could you get more of what you want for less money if you were willing to compromise on brand name?
Just a thought anyway.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2022-04-08 14:52
With any used instrument I'd always expect they'd benefit from having a full overhaul regardless if they're sold as having been 'recently serviced' or 'recently overhauled' as all too often, that 'recently' can mean anything or nothing at all.
Someone's definition of a service or overhaul isn't the same as someone else's and terminology can get all mixed up, some people seem to think a quick wipe over with an oily rag constitutes a service and others seem to think having the odd pad and bit of cork stuck on constitutes an overhaul when neither are the actual case.
I define a service as having the instrument taken apart, cleaned, bore oiled, key corks/felts replaced where needed, pads replaced where needed, keywork polished and the whole instrument reassembled and the mechanism oiled (although there are loads more stages to it than that.
I define an overhaul a complete stripdown and rebuild with all new pads, all toneholes levelled, all tenon corks replaced, most or all springs replaced, keys fitted and polished, etc. etc. which will end up with an instrument that should be in far better mechanical condition than one that left the factory.
The cost of a full overhaul is going to be a fraction of the cost of an equivalent brand new clarinet, so don't be stingy and held back by the purchase price vs. value thing - just because you only paid a relatively low price for a used clarinet doesn't mean you should put a limit on how much you're prepared to shell out for an overhaul. Don't fall into the "I only paid £xx so I'm not going to pay £xxx for an overhaul" trap - it doesn't work like that UNLESS you've bought a crappy Chinese clarinet that's not worth wasting any money on if it was never good to begin with.
If it's a used pro level clarinet, then it's always worth having fully overhauled to the highest standard and paying accordingly as that will mean you'll end up with an instrument in excellent playing condition as opposed to skimping on things and having a crappy job done leaving you with a less than useless instrument.
. . . . . . . . . .
With regards to nylon tipped adjusting screws, I drill out the tips of adjusting screws and glue in a piece of nylon monofilament of around 1mm to 1.2mm (a nylon guitar or harp string of the appropriate gauge will do), then trim it to just over 1mm and using a smooth file, burnish the nylon monofilament to make it dome-shaped (the nylon insert itself will resemble a rivet or pinhead when done).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2022-04-08 21:04)
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Author: graham
Date: 2022-04-08 19:36
It's worth noting that this topic has been addressed, in the context of a professionally used clarinet, by two leading players of the last two generations - Harold Wright and Andrew Mariner, both of which said that 'blow out' occurs (Wright, that the tone was lost, Mariner that the instrument goes out of tune). Both estimated ten years lifespan. The views of eminent players cannot be dismissed, but the context is relevant.
Modern professional use is very intensive indeed. Both players used their instruments several hours per day.
If we go back to 'yesteryear' we see that Brymer had one pair for 30 years (of which he played professionally for 20) and only changed when one of the pair met with an accident. His replacement pair lasted 20 years, of which he was probably fully active for around 15 years. Walton used the same pair for around 35 years, though it has been commented that they were out of tune when played by others. Kell played his for around 30 years, though how much he was playing at the end of that span is a point. Thurston - around 22 years, but also thought to be out of tune when played after his death. Charles Draper's A for around 40 years, of which 30 years was professional use, and the B flat around 30 and 20 respectively. I know that neither of the Draper instruments is remotely 'blown out' and play well in tune, and beautiful tone.
By further contrast, when I, as an amateur, bought a pair of new 1010s in 1979, the B flat went out of tune in three years, despite my practicing between 30 and 60 minutes per average day. So, that would have lasted weeks only in a professional context. But that was their lack of quality control in that era.
The 'takeaways' from this are that perhaps the modern professional's routine, when not rotating instruments, causes a huge stress on the instruments, which perhaps never get completely dry and are subject to constant warming and cooling stress. For military professionals the brunt falls on the B flat clarinet. This is likely to cause deterioration, just as a car driven daily for long distances wears out accordingly. But amateur use is several times less heavy, and the instruments are able perhaps to recover in such a way that they never deteriorate even by reference to the number of hours they are used.
That's not to say that all heavily used instruments deteriorate. My main pair (owned since 1986) are around 110 - 120 years old, and the B flat in particular was plainly heavily used in its early life (more than Draper's instruments). I doubt they are blown out. Of course, Hawkes Martels are so unlike modern instruments that comparisons are misleading so we cannot really tell what aspect is design and what is use (since nobody appears to be able to isolate exactly what causes their playing characteristics, re which see Peter Eaton's relevant article). And very old clarinets were never in tune in the modern way (except for the altissimo which is better than later instruments).
If you are afraid of buying a blown out instrument, then you need to trust your ears and tuning meter. If it plays well, it isn't blown out. If you are afraid that it will descend into dilapidation a few months after you have spent your money, I think that is unlikely, particularly if you do not use it very intensively. The greater risk seems to be keywork deterioration. In any case, new instruments can play those tricks (as in my new 1010 above) and this is more likely if you by an intermediate instrument, which after all is the obvious competitor to a used professional grade instrument.
Of course, there are differences between buying a 1990s instrument such as (e.g.) a Buffet DG, and buying a an antique such as the ones I use.
BTW, as far as B flats and As go, I have not played a modern instrument since the early 80s. The instruments mentioned above are ones I play regularly.
graham
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-04-08 21:07
Hi Graham,
Thanks for giving all that detailed information. I think it's really huge help for people who are considering spending a lot of money on an instrument.
I do think that buying a clarinet can be a real minefield for adult learners like me. Here is a bit of my experience in case it helps answer the question from the OP about why people buy new.
When I bought my new Yamaha I only did it under great pressure from many technicians who said my old instrument was absolutely beyond the pale, and not salvagable. I had had it repadded three times and still couldn't get it to do what it needed to do to get me through the grade 2 exam.
I got the new one on loan from the shop to play test for a week, and took both instruments to a professional player to test. She said that I should certainly take the new one back and keep the good old instrument, and not upgrade until I got to grade 8. She said the old one was a wonderful, irreplacable gem and I shouldn't let it out of my hands. (It does have a lovely tone, in fairness.)
I had a lot of agonising to do that week to work out whether to keep the new instrument and Hank Lehrer on this forum very kindly helped me to work it all out over email.
Looking back, I realise now that the old instrument was genuinely unplayable, and totally out of tune, in spite of it's lovely tone. I couldn't get the pinkie keys to sound more than one in three attempts and I hadn't actually thought to try it again a digital tuner at all. Having always played string instruments before, I didn't really realise that a clarinet could be out of tune.
I only mention all this, because this shows how hard it is for adult learners to tell a good used instrument from a bad one.
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Author: JTJC
Date: 2022-04-08 22:13
On a visit to the B&H factory Geoffrey Acton pointed out a double case in the corner of the workshop. He said they were Brymer’s clarinets. In response to my surprised look, I was told he had two pairs. When one pair was in the workshop he was playing the other.
I’ve heard about great players instruments being unplayable by others. I’m not sure I’m surprised that instruments that had been used at top professional level are later found to be out of tune etc after their death. Then instruments had suddenly been left unplayed, usually for a long time, before someone was able to try them. There’s also the fact that these players adapt or have others adapt instruments to their own playing peculiarities. These changes must lead to other players finding them odd. John McCaw was such a player. He adapted his own instruments himself. At his home he also had a fully assembled instrument sitting by the fireplace. I understand he used this for practice. This would reduce wear and tear on his main instruments. We don’t know what most great players do in their own home. Can we be so sure the players mentioned only ever played one set for n years?
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-04-08 23:37
JIJC - this makes a lot of sense to me. I had my barrel shortened so that my instrument would play in tune with my embouchure, because I wasn't strong enough to bring the instrument into tune with the full length barrel. It seems very sensible to me that people who play for a living would adapt their instruments to suit them.
I also keep an assembled clarinet by my computer desk for practising scales.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2022-04-09 10:44
I find that barrels take a beating because they're the part of the clarinet most exposed to humidity. A new barrel can give renewed vigor to an instrument.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: graham
Date: 2022-04-09 16:04
Any old instrument that cannot be made to sound the notes with ease cannot be a good choice. That’s an irreducible minimum. Tuning depends on degree. But as mentioned above, many top players were probably making adjustments.
We can’t know how much players rested or rotated their instruments, but it would be useful if current professionals could say what they do about that.
graham
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Author: kdk
Date: 2022-04-09 22:29
ruben wrote:
> I find that barrels take a beating because they're the part of
> the clarinet most exposed to humidity. A new barrel can give
> renewed vigor to an instrument.
>
Ruben, what do you mean by "take a beating?"
Karl
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2022-04-09 23:59
They get a right old pasting.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2022-04-10 00:15
Karl: I mean that humidity adds to wear and tear and may be the biggest cause of it. The barrel gets more condensation than the rest of the instrument. At any rate, I have found that making a barrel change -even if it's replacing the old one with a new one of the same make and model-gives new vigour to the instrument. This is, at any rate, customary practice here in France: right or wrong. Every three or four years, you change the barrel.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: m1964
Date: 2022-04-10 02:30
SunnyDaze wrote:
...I do think that buying a clarinet can be a real minefield for adult learners like me. Here is a bit of my experience in case it helps answer the question from the OP about why people buy new.
When I bought my new Yamaha I only did it under great pressure from many technicians who said my old instrument was absolutely beyond the pale, and not salvageable. I had had it repadded three times and still couldn't get it to do what it needed to do to get me through the grade 2 exam.
I got the new one on loan from the shop to play test for a week, and took both instruments to a professional player to test. She said that I should certainly take the new one back and keep the good old instrument, and not upgrade until I got to grade 8. She said the old one was a wonderful, irreplacable gem and I shouldn't let it out of my hands. (It does have a lovely tone, in fairness.)
...Looking back, I realise now that the old instrument was genuinely unplayable, and totally out of tune, in spite of it's lovely tone. I couldn't get the pinkie keys to sound more than one in three attempts...
I only mention all this, because this shows how hard it is for adult learners to tell a good used instrument from a bad one."
SunnyDaze,
if you like your new Yamaha then you've made the right choice.
However, your troubles playing across the break most likely were caused by bad adjustment of F/C and E/B keys and/or bad tone hole surface.
Many times intonation/tuning problems can be solved by adjusting pads height, undercutting or resurfacing tone holes, etc.
A good tech (not easy to find) can often restore an old instrument to perfection.
Another question I recently started asking myself is "Do I need a top-of-the line clarinet?" There is no limit to perfection, but I believe that at some point better clarinet will not matter how well I play.
Mechanically perfect clarinet does make a difference though.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2022-04-10 13:17
ruben wrote:
> At any rate, I have found that making a
> barrel change -even if it's replacing the old one with a new
> one of the same make and model-gives new vigour to the
> instrument. This is, at any rate, customary practice here in
> France: right or wrong. Every three or four years, you change
> the barrel.
>
I guess it's easier and cheaper than the practice among some American players of replacing the entire instrument every 4 or 5 years because the old one is "blown out."
Karl
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2022-04-10 21:22
Worn mechanics are easy to deal with - either by swaging keywork, refitting the point screws deeper into the pillars to take up any slop or bushing, drilling and countersinking the ends of long rods to achieve a better fit between point screws.
Loose adjusting screws can have the pips bushed and threaded to accept new or existing adjusting screws. Worn rod or point screws can also be fitted either with same size or oversized ones to take up any slop.
Loose pillars can always be glued into the joints or the pillar holes bushed and the threads recut to achieve a nice tight fit so the pillars won't turn under the pressure of the needle springs.
Worn out pillar heads (where rod screws pass through) can be bushed by reaming them oversize, then soft soldering brass or nickel silver bushes into them and fraising them back. Stripped pillar threads (internal threads for rod or point screws) can be bushed in a similar manner - either by bushing and then threading the pillars or making threaded bushes to be soldered into the reamed out threads.
Tenon rings can be either built up or the tenons sleeved to achieve a wobble-free fit and any cracks in joints and sockets can be glued, pinned or carbon fibre banded and sockets can be sleeved if they're worn out.
Toneholes can be levelled and any imperfections can be filled in or at worst, the entire damaged tonehole can be cut out and bushed.
The only hurdle is the cost and if the owner is willing to pay the price. If it's a pro level clarinet, then it's worth doing as it'll still cost less to do all that than to buy a brand new pro level clarinet provided the owner wants it done.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2022-04-11 17:33)
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Author: tyleman
Date: 2022-04-11 10:48
I would just like to say:
THANK YOU
For these fascinating posts!
I've learned so much and even though the posts have strayed a bit from my original, I am VERY glad they did!
I've bought about 40 clarinets since I moved to France, and I'm down to 35 now. I was curious to try a variety of brands just to see if I found a hidden gem. Most are just okay, but I did find an A. Robert and a J. Gras that were quite good players despite their age.
I currently play on a 100+ y/o instrument marked "Jean Martin" on the bell but nowhere else. I recently had it overhauled as it's still my favorite clarinet and the one I brought with me when I moved to France. It's very definitely not "blown out" and I have other vintage/antique clarinets that still play great, including two Martels!
Ruben brought up the subject of why someone would sell a clarinet (other than "they weren't all that good"), but I find many are sold because they are inherited and no longer used, or purchased to flip at flea markets or antique markets. I just saw a real junker yesterday that the dealer was asking 80 euros for. 8 euros would've been too much!
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Author: shmuelyosef
Date: 2022-07-09 01:39
Chris,
What kind of glue do you use for stabilizing a nylon filament into a drilled cavity?
I have had mixed results over time...
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Author: ruben
Date: 2022-07-09 10:14
Tyleman: What do you find special about your Martel clarinets? I've heard great things about that brand but have never been able to get my hands on any.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-07-09 14:04
Hi m1964 ,
Thanks for your comments on my instruments. I did eventually find out who the really good tech was accross country from here and he looked at both of my instruments. He said the old one was a total write-off and not worth working on, but he fixed the new Yamaha so that I could cross the break legato on it. He said he needed to replace 6 pads, even though the regular techs said it was fine. I think it's very useful to have someone like that around for break-crossing emergencies. :-)
Jen
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2022-07-09 16:28
Tyleman: What do you find special about your Martel clarinets? I've heard great things about that brand but have never been able to get my hands on any.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
I have a Martel Bb in unrestored condition in my "To Do" drawer. I also have a very fine Louis of Chelsea clari, which I believe were a direct development from the Martel. I bought the Louis in unrestored condition for pocket change and restored it is a superb instrument. I also bought the Martel for pocket change on EBay some years ago.
Tony F.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2022-07-12 17:33
SunnyDaze wrote:
"Hi m1964 ,
Thanks for your comments on my instruments. I did eventually find out who the really good tech was accross country from here and he looked at both of my instruments. He said the old one was a total write-off and not worth working on, but he fixed the new Yamaha so that I could cross the break legato on it. He said he needed to replace 6 pads, even though the regular techs said it was fine. I think it's very useful to have someone like that around for break-crossing emergencies. :-) "
I am glad it helped.
My opinion is that if there is a tech who works on clarinets, bass clarinets, oboes and flutes, that person would be my choice vs. someone who works in a music store and has to fix all sorts of instruments.
There is a reason why surgeons have been specializing in a certain area- it is difficult to achieve perfection in all areas.
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Author: tyleman
Date: 2022-08-14 20:20
Ruben wrote:
"Tyleman: What do you find special about your Martel clarinets? I've heard great things about that brand but have never been able to get my hands on any."
Over the past several years I've been trying out quite a few vintage/antique clarinets. I should point out that I'm not a classical player, I play old-style New Orleans jazz, so i don't in any way come to the music from the classical tradition and am basically self-taught. Many years ago I was asked by the late jazz clarinetist Kenny Davern to find him a Martel, as he had been searching for one for quite some time. I was active on ebay at that time and Kenny wasn't so I was given the task. Long story short he eventually sold the Martel - I really don't know why but he was afraid of wood clarinets cracking, so he went back to his Conn 16.
After a hiatus from playing clarinet and moving to France, I got back into it three years ago and I bought three and half Martels (the half being just an upper and lower joint). I sold the first one I found and still have the others. In the meantime, after trying many instruments, I played the Martel on a gig and loved the way it sounded and found it very comfortable to play. Previously I was using a vintage Jean Martin but on my outside gig it just didn't have the sound I wanted, but the Martel did.
I suppose in theory I should play on a large bore Selmer but after playing a couple I just never felt comfortable with them. I also have a couple of Penzel Muellers but I always seem to go back to the Martel. My "back up" Martel has the original barrel (which is stuck and immoveable) but I find it's too long for me to play in tune (I tend to play a bit flat, I'm assuming because I play double lip). So I'm using a LeBlanc barrel on my Martel which pairs nicely.
Interestingly Martel made hard rubber clarinets. I tried desparately to buy one for sale on ebay and leboncoin but got burned by the seller to the tune of 200 euros, as he never sent it to me. But I'm still looking for one.
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The Clarinet Pages
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