 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: m1964
Date: 2022-03-18 23:12
Hi all,
I have a chance to choose between R13 Prestige and Festival A clarinets.
I feel that R13P has warmer tone/timbre than Festival, but the Festival has sound that is more open, it is less resistant and have more "depth".
The Festival seems to be easier to play/control, comparing to the R13P. Wide intervals legato seem to be easier to play on Festival.
The R13P seems a little "stuffy" and more resistant when I play it right after playing the Festival, but does seem to have warmer and possibly darker sound.
What would you prefer? I mainly play the A clarinet in orchestra.
Thanks.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2022-03-18 23:53
My preference (or anybody else's) should have no bearing on what you prefer. But since you asked, I think a player's main job in an orchestra is to play the part musically and match the overall sound and style of the orchestra. Timbre is only a small part of achieving this end. If the Festival is more responsive and lets you concentrate on the music and the phrasing rather than the "pure sound," I would hands down choose the Festival. Obsession with sound quality tends to make every piece you play sound the same. If the Festival gives you a more flexible choice of sound qualities to match different composer's styles (Mozart and Brahms and Mahler and Debussy and Ravel, and Stravinsky and Elliot Carter) then it should be your choice. Audience response is more attuned to rhythm, phrasing, and intonation rather than to the tone quality--unless your tone is really bad, like a fog horn at one extreme or a kazoo at the other. Most listeners from a distance will probably not give significance to the tonal difference between a Prestige and a Festival, but they will notice if you are having trouble phrasing naturally because the clarinet is too resistant or sluggish in response or out of tune or too tiring to blow over the long haul.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2022-03-19 00:37
seabreeze wrote:
> My preference (or anybody else's) should have no bearing on
> what you prefer. But since you asked, I think a player's main
> job in an orchestra is to play the part musically and match the
> overall sound and style of the orchestra. Timbre is only a
> small part of achieving this end. If the Festival is more
> responsive and lets you concentrate on the music and the
> phrasing rather than the "pure sound," I would hands down
> choose the Festival. Obsession with sound quality tends to make
> every piece you play sound the same. If the Festival gives you
> a more flexible choice of sound qualities to match different
> composer's styles (Mozart and Brahms and Mahler and Debussy
> and Ravel, and Stravinsky and Elliot Carter) then it should be
> your choice. Audience response is more attuned to rhythm,
> phrasing, and intonation rather than to the tone
> quality--unless your tone is really bad, like a fog horn at one
> extreme or a kazoo at the other. Most listeners from a
> distance will probably not give significance to the tonal
> difference between a Prestige and a Festival, but they will
> notice if you are having trouble phrasing naturally because the
> clarinet is too resistant or sluggish in response or out of
> tune or too tiring to blow over the long haul.
Seabreeze,
thanks a lot- your answer is very well put and matches my feelings about the choice I have to make.
Thanks again.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-03-19 06:08
Along similar lines of thought, the sound YOU get on a horn will come through almost no matter what. So my main criteria is whatever horn is most fun to play. Resistance sounds to me like you’re not getting the response you want.
…………….Paul Aviles
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Author: HANGARDUDE
Date: 2022-03-19 18:02
First to answer your question: A equilibrium between both is my personal preference- I like warmth, body & focus in my sound but I do want enough liveliness, clarity & projection. While my setups(especially on bass) is definitely on the resistant side, I also know when the resistance and darkness of sound becomes excessive that it become stuffy and uncomfortable to play, and actively avoid that. Nor do I like playing on setups that are too light(though Brad Behn will disagree with me, and I fully respect that) which decreases the stability of the instrument's response as well as making the tone less uncontrollable It's all about balancing between both for me really.
THAT SAID, my opinion above only serves as a reference, NOT a hard-and-fast rule to live and die by. The only takeaway here is that avoid playing on something that makes you work excessively with less efficiency nor something that sacrifices too much stability for the sake of making it overly freeblowing. However there is NO universal threshold on this, every player(in conjunction with their teachers/colleagues) has to decide where the happy medium is.
As long as you like the sound and feel comfortable on the setup, choose it and go make your music! It may still be a skill which needs work & practice, but always remember that you make music on the clarinet because you genuinely enjoy it, so live out your music career that way and no less!
Josh
Post Edited (2022-04-07 16:40)
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Author: m1964
Date: 2022-03-20 23:33
HANGARDUDE wrote:
> ...A equilibrium between both is my
> personal preference- I like warmth, body & focus in my sound
> but I do want enough liveliness, clarity & projection. While my
> setups(especially on bass) is definitely on the resistant side,
> I also know when the resistance and darkness of sound becomes
> excessive that it become stuffy and uncomfortable to play, and
> actively avoid that. Nor do I like playing on setups that are
> too light...
HANGARDUDE,
Thanks for replying to my post.
The "ideal" instrument would balance all the qualities you mentioned, and good tuning as well.
The problem is that I cannot afford an ideal instrument, not that I need one for my use/ level of playing.
I believe that the choice is getting easier to make as I play the Festival more.
This instrument was sitting in a music store for long time and was very dry when I got it.
Before starting to play on it, I oiled it. Many people believe that oiling the clarinet makes sound dull. Maybe yes, maybe no.
However, I always oil clarinets I get (if they are dry) and never had one crack (yet).
The oil will eventually come out and the sound quality will improve. Possibly, I am just getting used to the instrument as I play on it.
In any case, the Festival now sounds, I think, better than it did two weeks ago when I just started playing on it.
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2022-03-21 12:33
Imo, the Festival is the nicer clarinet when it comes down to sound and it projects very good.
However, also consider intonation: The internal tuning of R13 and Festival are not the same. Choose the one that fits the best to your Bb clarinet.
I have a R13 Vintage A clarinet and used to have a Festival Bb clarinet. Soundwise a very good match but every time when I have played the A for some time and switched back to the Bb I had intonation troubles with the Festival. I clearly preferred the internal intonation of the R13 above the Festival. That's the reason I changed the Festival Bb for a R13 Vintage Bb. It makes intonation better and life easier.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2022-03-23 11:01
Jeroen wrote:
> Imo, the Festival is the nicer clarinet when it comes down to
> sound and it projects very good.
>
> However, also consider intonation: The internal tuning of R13
> and Festival are not the same. Choose the one that fits the
> best to your Bb clarinet.
>
> I have a R13 Vintage A clarinet and used to have a Festival Bb
> clarinet. Soundwise a very good match but every time when I
> have played the A for some time and switched back to the Bb I
> had intonation troubles with the Festival. I clearly preferred
> the internal intonation of the R13 above the Festival. That's
> the reason I changed the Festival Bb for a R13 Vintage Bb. It
> makes intonation better and life easier...
Hi Jeroen,
thanks for the tip.
My Bb is RC Prestige, which is mostly in tune, with throat notes a little high, low F flat (as usual), and high F flat (correctable with lower banana key).
On the new Festival, I noted sharp G (above staff), correctable with keeping RH fingers low. Everything else is mostly OK. Also, this particular instrument is very even in response, even from lower C#, which was a little dull on both R13P (A+B) and even on my current Bb RC Prestige. I had to lift the key and also installed a cork pad to even out that C#. On this new Festival, it seems to be fine. The R13 Prestige A clarinet even required slight reaming of the tone hole to improve the sound/response.
In my experience with new clarinets, they change in tuning after some time- I guess the bore changes slightly. My teacher (who is an excellent tech) told me he does not like to tune new clarinets until they are played for six months.
Another thing is that, somehow, the same notes that seem out of tune (per an app on my phone) somehow tune OK when playing with other instruments in the orchestra...
For now, I decided to play the Festival but not sell the R13P yet, and compare both again in a couple of months.
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Author: TomS
Date: 2022-03-23 22:43
Go for the best tuning and note-to-note consistancy of blowing resistance.
The timbre can be adjusted with reeds/MP/your brain. Brain is the most important piece of equipment, and will dial in final micro-adjustments to voicing and embrochure to make your ideal sound.
Years ago, (before COVID), my teacher and I swapped completely different setups for a few minutes ... I had a Yamaha YCL62 with a Hite MP and a #4 VD ... he had an old R13 with a Pyne MP and a #5 VD. Within a few seconds of playing each other's setup, he sounded mostly like he did before the swap, and so did I.
The sound is more adjustable than poor tuning and response that is "baked in the cake" ...
Tom
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Author: m1964
Date: 2022-03-24 22:13
TomS wrote:
> Go for the best tuning and note-to-note consistancy of blowing
> resistance....
>
> The sound is more adjustable than poor tuning and response that
> is "baked in the cake" ...
>
TomS,
Thanks for your reply- I believe that I need to break-in the Festival a little more before I can fully assess it's tuning and response.
So far, its tone is improving, tuning is on par with the other clarinet.
Response is better- its more free-blowing and, I think, more even in response between the notes.
I think I will stay with the Festival (unless it changes dramatically after break-in).
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Author: sonicbang
Date: 2022-03-25 02:54
I think a free blowing clarinet which is in tune gives the mostly flexibility. You can alter the sound and response by your mouthpiece + reed combination. If the horn is already stuffy, you have less options.
Mark
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Author: Jarmo Hyvakko
Date: 2022-03-25 10:34
Dark and bright sound may both be very good. In the good-ole-days the bright sound used to be dominant especially in french system. Then came the dark sound. As if the mouthpiece and instrument makers had a secret meeting and decided that dark sound should it be. (A conspiracy?)
Seriously, the challenge with the bright sound was, and will be forever, the unpredictability of the upper partials in sound mainly caused by the uneven quality of reeds. Who wants to play sounding like a kazoo? So, the easiest solution is to have a mouthpiece, or even an instrument, that kills most of them!
But now, for me, the syntethic reeds have changed the game. They are relatively easy to play dark. And that's why I changed to them too. And have played dark for several years.
And now I am so bored with that sound. But it is possible to play bright with syntethics too. You need to dig out the upper partials to the sound. And that needs very deliberate action. But actually I enjoy that more than using cane reeds.
First, the upper partials are much more predictable in syntethics than canes. Just find a mouthpiece and a ligature that help you to shape the combo of upper partials up to your preference.
Second, mentally it's more logical, that you have to use extra effort to change the sound from dark to bright instead of trying to avoid the upper partials you don't prefer. Your physical action is therefore more in sync with the mood in music: bright=open, intensive, dark=relaxed, mysterious. At least for me it makes easier to get "in zone".
Jarmo Hyvakko, Principal Clarinet, Tampere Philharmonic, Finland
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Author: TomS
Date: 2022-03-25 17:42
Most likely, you are making unconscious adjustments of your voicing and embrochure than the instrument is changing/improving and you are perhaps finding reeds/MPs that compliment the acoustics of the clarinet.
Yeah, the Festival is a really good model ... I'd probably vote for this over the R13.
Tom
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2022-03-30 09:19
Sound quality surely comes first. A lot of players mix up dark and warm. It is of my opinion that dark sounds don't project, warm and bright sounds do. I know of a player who auditioned for a major orchestra, was in the finals, but lost. His sound was not warm as he thought. It was dark and dead. He lost the job because the orchestra couldn't hear him play. Up close, just a few feet away he had the most beautiful sound, but we were fooled by no overtones. Overtones are needed for projection. The worst mouthpiece I feel was the Zinner/Backun. I'm glad they aren't around much anymore, except on the used market.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2022-03-30 22:58
Lots of good (and long) opinions. Personally I like a darker sound and at times wish mine were darker. I'm a simple guy....
Auditioning for an orchestra-- I'd go with whichever you think gets you the job.
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
Post Edited (2022-03-30 22:59)
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