 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: EricBlack
Date: 2022-03-07 18:30
Every year, especially around this time, I always see questions about attending music school. One of the biggest and most recurring, (understandably so) is whether or not the inquirer should continue on and get a Performance Degree in College. I'm sure like many of you, every time I see this question, I try to consider what I would tell my younger self if they were the one asking. For many musicians, I imagine it's an extremely difficult question, bringing to the fore many complicated and oftentimes conflicting feelings. After years of thinking about this, I decided that if I were ever given the chance to speak to my past self, I would just try to break down the data and the reality of trying to "make it" in this field. And so I embarked on the journey to create this video.
For the last 6 weeks I have been working on an in-depth video analysis of the financial cost of getting a 4 year degree from a Major U.S. Conservatory. My goal was to explore these numbers and then try to determine -if your goal was to become a symphony musician- whether or not the cost would be "worth it." You can find the video here (the following data will make more sense if you watch the video): https://youtu.be/OaXyRPzyHcg
In the course of my research I found it necessary to try and figure out how many orchestra's in the United States currently would put musicians in the "middle income" tier of earners in the U.S. (assuming that they are living in a 3 person household.) In the end I came up with 37 orchestras (There might be some missing and there might be a few that should no longer be on the list Post-Covid, however I am fairly confident that this is the majority of orchestras that meet this criteria.)
After determining the list, I was curious how many clarinetists comprised these orchestras, who the players were and what schools they attended. In total I came up with 108 clarinetists. This list is already changing, with certain people most likely on the cusp of retirement (if they haven't already) and others on the cusp of securing tenure. I tried not to include subs, long-term or otherwise, or musicians who had not yet achieved tenure. If you are aware of someone who should be on this list, but is not, please let me know and I will gladly add them! Additionally, if a person's education is incorrectly listed, please let me know and I will correct that as well. This was a massive amount of data and while I am confident in it being mostly correct, I am only human and would not be surprised if I overlooked some things!
To me there are a lot of interesting trends that seem to appear when looking at this data and it's also just interesting to see it all laid out. Hopefully some of you find it intriguing as well!
So without further ado, below is the list of orchestras (in no particular order), the clarinetists that are currently tenured in them and where those clarinetists went to school. At the end of the list you can find the breakdown of all the U.S. Schools that have more than 1 alumni in one of these orchestras.
Clarinet Sections in the Major Orchestras
New York Philharmonic
1. Anthony McGill: Principal: Curtis Institute of Music
2. Pascual Martínez Forteza: Acting Associate Principal: University of Southern California
Boston Symphony Orchestra
3. William R. Hudgins: Principal Clarinet: Boston University School for the Arts
4. Thomas Martin: Associate Principal Clarinet and E Flat: Eastman School of Music
Philadelphia Orchestra
5. Ricardo Morales: Principal Clarinet: Indiana University, Cincinnati Conservatory of Music, Escuela Libre de Musica
6. Samuel Caviezel: Associate Principal and E-Flat Clarinetist: Curtis Institute of Music
7. Socrates Villegas: National Conservatory in Mexico City, Versailles Conservatory in France, Temple University
8. Paul R. Demers: Bass Clarinet: DePaul University
Cleveland Orchestra
9. Afendi Yusuf: Principal Clarinet: Wilifred Laurier University, Glenn Gould School,
The Colburn School
10. Robert Woolfrey: Clarinet: University of Toronto, Yale School of Music
11. Daniel Mckelway: Assistant Principal Clarinet: The New England Conservatory
12. Amy Zoloto: Bass Clarinetist: DePaul University
Chicago Symphony Orchestra
13. Stephen Williamson: Principal Clarinet: Eastman School of Music, The Juilliard School, Hochschule der Kunste in Berlin
14. John Bruce Yeh: The Juilliard School
15. Gregory Smith: Northwestern University
Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra
16. Christopher Pell: Principal Clarinet: The Juilliard School
17. Joseph Morris: Associate Principal and Eb: University of Southern California,
The Colburn School
18. Ixi Chen: Clarinet: University of Southern California, Hochschule fur Musik Karlruhe, Manhattan School of Music and University of California Los Angeles
19. Ronald Aufmann: Bass Clarinet: Indiana University
Detroit Symphony Orchestra
20. Ralph Skiano: Principal Clarinet: Cincinnati Conservatory of Music
21. Jack Walters: 2nd Clarinet: University of Michigan, Rice University
22. Laurence Liberson: Assistant Principal: University of Michigan
23. Shannon Orme: Bass Clarinet: Northwestern University, University of Southern California
Minnesota Symphony Orchestra
24. Gabriel Campos Zamora: Principal Clarinet: The Colburn School
25. David Pharris: Clarinet: Northwestern University
26. Gregory T. Williams: Associate Principal - Eflat: University of Missouri-Columbia, University of Toronto, Cincinnati Conservatory of Music
27. Timothy Zavadil: Bass Clarinet: DePaul University, Northwestern University
Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra
28. Michael Rusinek: Principal Clarinet: Curtis Institute of Music
29. Victoria Luperi: Associate Principal Clarinet: Curtis Institute of Music
30. Ron Samuels: 2nd Clarinet: University of Southern California
31. Jack Howell: University of Northern Colorado
Seattle Symphony Orchestra
32. Benjamin Lulich: Principal Clarinet: Cleveland Institute of Music and
Yale School of Music
33. Emil Khudyev: Associate Principal Clarinet: Cleveland Institute of Music, Yale School of Music, The Colburn School
34. Laura DeLuca: E Flat Clarinet: Northwestern University
35. Eric Jacobs: Bass Clarinet: Virginia Commonwealth University, Rice University, University of Southern California
Saint Louis Symphony Orchestra
36. Scott Andrews: Principal: New England Conservatory
37. Diana Haskell: Associate Principal Clarinet: Eastman School of Music, The Juilliard School
38. Tzuying Huang: Bass Clarinet: Indiana University, University of Texas-Austin
Milwaukee Symphony Orchestra
39. Todd Levy: Principal Clarinet: The Juilliard School
40. Benjamin Adler: Assistant Principal/Eb Clarinet: Northwestern, University of Southern California, The Colburn School.
41. William Helmers: Bass Clarinet: Eastman School of Music and The Juilliard School
Buffalo Symphony Orchestra
42. William Amsel: Principal Clarinet: New England Conservatory, Temple University
43. Patricia DiLutis: Clarinet: Boston University
44. Salvatore Andolina: Clarinet, Bass Clarinet, Saxophone: University of Buffalo, Eastman School of Music
National Symphony Orchestra
45. Lin Ma: Principal Clarinet: Oberlin Conservatory, Rice University
46. Eugene Mondie: Assistant Principal Clarinet: Oberlin Conservatory, DePaul
47. Paul Cigan: 2nd Clarinet: Temple University
48. Peter Cain: Bass Clarinet: Vanderbilt University, University of Minnesota,
Cincinnati Conservatory of Music
Atlanta Symphony Orchestra
49. Laura Arden: Principal Clarinet: The Juilliard School
50. Ted Gurch: Associate Principal Clarinet Eb: Eastman School of Music
51. Marci Gurnow: Second Clarinet: Southern Methodist University,
Northwestern University
52. Alcides Rodriguez: Bass Clarinet: Baylor University, Northwestern University
Houston Symphony
53. Mark Nuccio: Principal Clarinet: The University of Northern Colorado, Northwestern University
54. Thomas LeGrand: Associate Principal Clarinet: Curtis Institute of Music
55. Christian Schubert: Second Clarinet: Northwestern University
56. Alexander Potiomkin: Bass Clarinet: Rubin Jerusalem Academy of Music,
Rice University
Dallas Symphony
57. Gregory Raden: Principal Clarinet: New England Conservatory,
Curtis Institute of Music
58. Paul Garner: Associate Principal E-Flat: Michigan State University, University of Kansas
59. Stephen Ahearn: 2nd Clarinet: University of Richmond (Bachelor of Arts in Biology and Music,) University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee
60. Andrew Sandwick: Bass Clarinet; University of Southern California, Rice University
Met Opera Orchestra
61. Inn-hyuck Cho: Principal Clarinet: Korean National University of Arts, Conservatoire National Supérieur de Musique de Paris
62. Anton Rist: Principal Clarinet: The Juilliard School
63. Jessica Phillips: 2nd and E-flat clarinet: Barnard College, Columbia University, The Manhattan School of Music
64. Dean LeBlanc: Bass Clarinet: Eastman School of Music,
Manhattan School of Music
Utah Symphony
65. Tad Calcara: Principal Clarinet: San Francisco Conservatory of Music, Cleveland Institute of Music
66. Erin Svoboda-Scott: Associate Principal - E-flat: New England Conservatory of Music, Temple University, Manhattan School of Music,
67. Lee Livengood: Bass Clarinet: Eastman School of Music,
University of California, Santa Barbara
San Diego Symphony
68. Sheryl Renk: Principal Clarinet: San Francisco State University,
San Francisco Conservatory of Music
69. Frank Renk: Bass Clarinet: San Francisco Conservatory of Music,
San Francisco State University
Fort Worth Symphony
70. Stanislav Chernyshev: Principal Clarinet: Curtis Institute of Music,
St. Petersburg Conservatory
71. Ivan Petruzzielo: Assistant Principal Clarinet- E-Flat: Ottorino Respighi Conservatory of Latina, Licino Refuse Conservatory of Frosinone,
Texas Christian University
72. Gary Whitman: Bass Clarinet: University of North Texas,
International Music Institute in Nice
Los Angeles Philharmonic
73. Boris Allakhverdyan: Principal Clarinet: Oberlin Conservatory,
Cleveland Institute of Music
74. Burt Hara: Associate Principal Clarinet: Curtis Institute of Music
75. Andrew Lowy: Second E-flat: Harvard College, University of Southern California
76. David Howard: Clarinet: Yale University
San Francisco Symphony Orchestra
77. Carey Bell: Principal Clarinet: University of Michigan (Clarinet and Composition), DePaul University
78. Jerome Simas: Bass Clarinet: Cleveland Institute of Music
Baltimore Symphony Orchestra
79. YaoGuang Zhai: Principal Clarinet: Curtis Institute of Music
80. Vitor Trindade: 2nd Clarinet: Academia Nacional Superior de Orquestra,
The Colburn School
81. William Jenken: Bass Clarinet: University of British Columbia
Nashville Symphony Orchestra
82. Katherine Kohler: Assistant Principal Clarinet: University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee
83. Daniel Lochrie: Bass Clarinet: University of Michigan, Cleveland Institute of Music, Ohio State University
Jacksonville Symphony Orchestra
84. Giovanni Bertoni: Principal Clarinet: Oberlin Conservatory, Yale School of Music
85. Patrick Graham: 2nd Clarinet: University of Ottawa, Northwestern University
Kansas City Symphony
86. Raymond Santos: Principal Clarinet: University of Southern California
87. Silvio Guitian: Associate Principal and E-Flat: Oberlin Conservatory, Rice University
88. John Klinghammer: Bass Clarinet: University of Oregon,
University of Southern California
Indianapolis Symphony Orchestra
89. Samuel Rothstein: Acting Principal (Bass Clarinetist): Northwestern University
90. Cathryn Gross: Clarinet: Eastman School of Music, Indiana University
Chicago Lyric Opera Orchestra
91. Linda A. Baker: Acting Co-Principal Clarinet/Bass Clarinet: Indiana University
92. Susan Warner: Acting Co-Principal Clarinet: University of Iowa,
Eastman School of Music
New York City Ballet Orchestra:
93. Steven Hartman: Principal Clarinet: The Juilliard School
94. Gerhardt Koch: Associate Principal E-Flat Clarinet: The Juilliard School
95. Danny Mui: 2nd/Bass Clarinetist: Western Michigan University,
Northwestern University, University of Michigan
Saint Paul Chamber Orchestra
96. Sang Yoon Kim: Principal Clarinet: Conservatoire de Paris, The Colburn School
San Francisco Opera
97. Jose Gonzalez Granero: Principal Clarinet: Granada Superior Conservatory,
G. Verdi Conservatory, University of Southern California and The Colburn School
98. Joanne Eisler: Assistant Principal E-Flat Clarinet: University of Michigan, Northwestern University
99. Anthony Striplen: Clarinet/Bass Clarinet: San Francisco State University
Oregon Symphony
100. James Shields: Principal Clarinet: The Juilliard School, University of New Mexico
101. Todd Kuhns: Assistant Principal Clarinet/Bass Clarinet: Portland State University, Temple University
102. Mark Dubac: Second/E-Flat Clarinet: The Juilliard School,
University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee
North Carolina Symphony
103. Samuel Almaguer: Principal Clarinet: The Colburn School, Rice University
Washington National Opera/Kennedy Center Opera House Orchestra
104. David Jones: Principal Clarinet: Northwestern University
105. Ashley Booher: Clarinet/Bass Clarinet: The University of New Hampshire,
Indiana University
San Francisco Ballet
No one is listed as tenured!
Phoenix Symphony Orchestra
106. Alex Laing: Principal Clarinet: Northwestern University, Manhattan School of Music, Sweelinck Conservatorium Amsterdam
107. Steve Hanusofski: Associate Principal/Bass Clarinet: North Park College, Florida State University, Florida State and Arizona State University
108. Sole Chang: Clarinet: University of Michigan, California State University at Long Beach
School Representation via Clarinetists
37 Orchestras
108 Musicians
Northwestern University: 16 Alumni
University of Southern California: 12 Alumni
The Juilliard School: 12 Alumni
Eastman School of Music: 10 Alumni
Curtis Institute of Music: 9 Alumni
The Colburn School: 9 Alumni
Rice University: 7 Alumni
University of Michigan: 7 Alumni
Indiana University: 6 Alumni
Cleveland Institute of Music: 6 Alumni
Temple University: 5 Alumni
DePaul University: 5 Alumni
Oberlin Conservatory of Music: 5 Alumni
Yale: 5 Alumni (1 went for a B.A., but not in music)
New England Conservatory of Music: 5 Alumni
Manhattan School of Music: 5 Alumni
Cincinnati Conservatory of Music: 4 Alumni
University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee: 3 Alumni
San Francisco Conservatory of Music: 3 Alumni
San Francisco State University: 3 Alumni
Boston University: 2 Alumni
University of Northern Colorado: 2 Alumni
Post Edited (2022-03-13 04:48)
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2022-03-07 19:32
Hi All,
A very interesting survey and a fine example of descriptive research. This should be required reading for all Clarinet BB readers.
The quality and format of the Youtube presentation was excellent as well.
HRL
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Author: Jack Nelson
Date: 2022-03-07 20:16
Eric, the quality of your research is stunning and should be required reading/viewing for anyone contemplating a career as an orchestral musician.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2022-03-07 20:44
Interesting list. I expected to see Julliard, Eastman, Curtis, Colburn and USC, and Rice as top "feeder" schools for US orchestras, but, though I knew they had a strong program, I am surprised that Northwestern tops the list! The lasting influence of Larry Combs?
Post Edited (2022-03-07 21:13)
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Author: jim sclater
Date: 2022-03-07 21:47
Eric's video is well-researched and should be seen by anyone contemplating a career in orchestral playing.
jsclater@comcast.net
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Author: brycon
Date: 2022-03-07 23:00
Just watched the video. Thank you for the research!
Universities and conservatories no doubt traffic in the survivorship fallacy. And some admissions material is outright misleading: I recently saw an infographic from Berklee claiming 75% of alumni are employed in the performing arts (yeah, sure... "employed").
I think that many administrators see the crux of the issue as stagnating U.S. birthrates leading to increased competition among educational institutions for fewer students. Anecdotally, I see the schools with great financial aid and/or prestige getting far more competitive and therefore selective and second or third tier programs becoming far less selective. Schools are doing everything they can to hold it together and stay financially viable, which, in this case, means pushing success stories from 20 plus years ago to make potentially crippling debt more palatable (or viewing international cultural centers, such as China and Korea, as pipelines for new students). And you're right, it's morally dubious: how's an 18 year old, perhaps with parents who don't understand the music industry or a teacher who hasn't been in touch with it for several decades, supposed to make a good decision here?
But this phenomenon isn't confined to music. U.S. educational institutions are suffering smaller applicant pools and significant budget cuts. And education, then, has shifted from a credence good to a search good: that is, it isn't viewed as a good in and of itself but rather as a mechanism for achieving some other good (an orchestral position, a middle-class income, etc.). Schools have therefore become increasingly corporatized, as seen in the ever expanding middle-management administrator cohort, student evaluation processes, cutting of unprofitable degree programs, etc.
So schools are giving students a corporate schtick and selling success stories. But in the case of music, success in a field that most Americans don't care about doesn't amount to financial success.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2022-03-08 02:37
You ought to edit the title so it reads "Clarinet Sections of the Top US Orchestras"
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: lmliberson
Date: 2022-03-08 18:52
Ultimately, this is really more than just the cost of schools and the odds of gaining employment in a major orchestra.
First, considering the numbers (or lack, thereof) of such orchestral openings, “winning” such positions are akin to winning the lottery.
Next, higher education is not cheap, especially the more one specializes - and what is more specialized than a conservatory environment?
But that’s the key - you are investing in an education, not a career. No school can guarantee that, right?
Too much demand, not enough supply. But this is not unique to these particular times - it has always been that way. Contrary to what many might believe, there are more orchestras now where one can earn a decent living than when I first began my career. But, still, very slim pickings!
The various schools and conservatories cited so far are just the tip of the proverbial iceberg. There are hundreds of schools in this country alone that serve thousands of clarinet-playing students, each one of them (hopefully?) aspiring to…something. Even with all the various directions one could go in the realm of musical careers, I would be willing to bet that the majority cannot make a living as a result of that education. Same thing - supply and demand.
Being a clarinetist makes it worse than many other instrumentalists. Students are needed to fill established collegiate ensembles - and what section in bands require the most players? And let’s face it, the majority of college clarinetists play in bands, not orchestras.
I realize this is getting away from the gist of the original post - however, it speaks to the glut of players versus the dearth of legitimate, viable, financially well-supporting career opportunities.
Statistics are simply statistics. Keep in mind there are players who have become successful in their careers despite the school they attended.
Circling back to the original theme, let’s not think that getting the “best” clarinet/musical education qualifies one to sit in any orchestra. Having listened to thousands of auditions in the past 45+ years has demonstrated to me that even with such a pedigree, the vast majority have absolutely no business taking these auditions.
But I suppose that’s yet another topic… 🤷🏻♂️
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2022-03-08 19:43
Hey Eric:
Thank you for what I think should be required reading for anyone considering a career in musical performance, particularly on clarinet or other instruments of the orchestra that only require a handful of players (i.e. not as much violins, which is not to say that the competition here isn't wickedly intense as well.)
Now, for the inconvenient question. At some level I have to imagine that you realized, at least to some extent, the reality of your research at the time that you were a student. So why did you do it?
And yet you pursued this avenue anyway. Now don't get me wrong, sometimes we pursue an education simply for the love of the discipline, realizing that if we can't end up doing it to make a living, that we engage in other pursuits, tangential or not. A few of us come from families ready, willing and able to pay, so at least we don't find ourselves in considerable debt after the endeavor.
And the funniest thing of all, despite those who made it loving music, the demands of orchestral work can make for challenging life that often needs to be supplemented by teaching and other related disciplines just to have a little extra spending money.
Points made above about no school being able to guarantee a career may be true, but so too is the notion that a 4 year degree in, say, accounting is far more likely to grant you a paycheck than a post graduate education in musical performance. Retorts of "well who wants to be an accountant," (I'm not) might be equally retorted with, "well who wants to worry where their next meal is coming from."
Post Edited (2022-03-08 19:47)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-03-08 23:02
It should go without saying that people who are musicians do so because they are compelled to do it. You statistically driven research types might be better off becoming actuaries. AFLAC is a good place to start looking.
…………..Paul Aviles
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2022-03-09 02:30
Paul Aviles wrote:
> It should go without saying that people who are musicians do so
> because they are compelled to do it. You statistically driven
> research types might be better off becoming actuaries. AFLAC
> is a good place to start looking.
>
>
>
>
> …………..Paul Aviles
>
Actuarial acumen isn’t a requirement to know that pursuing orchestral employment as a wind player isn’t practical anymore than mathematical and musical skill sets are mutually exclusive.
I think there has to be more than compulsion towards the conservatory performance education choice. Enormous musical talent and perhaps lack of passion/aptitude in other areas might be mere basic prerequisites.
I wish it weren’t the case. I wish good livings could be had by all those in this space.
Post Edited (2022-03-09 02:31)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2022-03-09 03:18
EricBlack wrote:
> Every year, especially around this time, I always see questions
> about attending music school. One of the biggest and most
> recurring, (understandably so) is whether or not the inquirer
> should continue on and get a Performance Degree in College.
Eric, this is a fascinating list. I'm actually surprised to see so wide a variety of schools producing symphony level players.
Sometimes, though, depending on the school, the performance majors simply get a stronger, deeper music experience than the music ed majors enrolled at the same college. They get more varied hands-on performance experience and spend less time with pedagogy. That difference in music experience *can* produce better teachers. It can also produce more skilled local free-lancers. A good, well trained player who is an inspiring and musically well-informed teacher, who can supplement teaching income with whatever the local gig economy can provide, can easily reach "the 'middle income' tier of earners in the U.S.."
There's more to living as a musician than playing in a major symphony and more benefits than audition skills to be gained as a performance major.
Karl
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2022-03-09 05:48
Classical music as a liberal art is a wonderful thing that can feed the imagination, calm the soul, and teach discipline and self-control. Classical music as a profitable trade or profession is a horse of a different color. Most people who take foreign language in school or college do not expect to make a living as a translator, nor do most who study history expect to become a professional historian. But conservatories do seem to present themselves as increasingly expensive, high-level trade schools that in reality train people for ideal jobs that either don't exist or exist on a very tiny scale. It is this mismatch between promise and result that Eric Black's presentation exposes so very well. Perhaps if every high school in the US supported classical music with bands, orchestras and sequential music instruction, that would open up many more jobs. But in our present culture, it is unlikely that large enough numbers of students would consent to devote themselves to this study as a liberal art with no monetary reward awaiting them. One might just as well try to get them to study Homeric Greek.
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Author: EricBlack
Date: 2022-03-09 08:37
Hey All,
I truly appreciate the kind words that many of you have expressed. Ironically, within minutes of publishing the video my life became unrelatedly and unexpectedly busy and I haven't had much time to respond to questions, or comments. However, I have been attempting to at least read everything and have been overwhelmed and gratified by the immense amount of support sent my way. More importantly however, I am thrilled to see the amount of discussion this video has generated (both on this board and on various other forums around the web.) As many posters here have pointed out, it's an immensely complicated subject with many, many different factors playing a part in the current situation. Unfortunately, there were just too many factors to be explored in one YouTube video. The scale of the subject has meant that this video has been mulling around in the back of my head since I started my YouTube channel. It's taken me almost two years to figure out how to make it happen. Looking at the data allowed me to construct a video that I hoped anyone (especially someone unfamiliar with the inner workings of the field) could follow along with. It was my hope that it would help to give the video direction and to hopefully provide some impartiality. I am planning to explore some of the other factors in the future, but those videos will probably be a ways away (my brain is still fried after the process of creating this one.)
I hope to come back over the next few days and answer some questions and offer some thoughts on some of the other comments I've seen. However, before I go, I just want to say that I truly love music. The clarinet is my passion, there is no other topic that has ever so singularly captivated me. Pre-pandemic I knew nothing about video making. I was compelled to learn and continue learning because I wanted to find a way to share my passion and to make videos about the clarinet and classical music world that I would want to watch myself. So, thank you to all of you who have offered their support or encouragement in this endeavor!
All the best,
Eric Black
Edit: I don't want this message to derail the thread, I have been really enjoying reading all of your thoughts on this topic and look forward to continuing to do so!
Post Edited (2022-03-09 08:41)
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2022-03-09 09:42
I always enjoy your videos, Eric and appreciate all the hard work and thought that goes into them. I don't have time to wade into the discussion right now but I wanted to point out that it is the "Los Angeles Philharmonic" not the "Los Angeles Symphony Orchestra." They are kind of a big deal!
Anders
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Author: EricBlack
Date: 2022-03-09 15:58
nellsonic wrote:
> I always enjoy your videos, Eric and appreciate all the hard
> work and thought that goes into them. I don't have time to
> wade into the discussion right now but I wanted to point out
> that it is the "Los Angeles Philharmonic" not the "Los Angeles
> Symphony Orchestra." They are kind of a big deal!
>
🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️ Oof, thats the kind of typo that hurts to make. Thank you for catching it!
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2022-03-09 20:16
Two thoughts arise in reaction to this interesting posting:
(1) I wonder how the situation compares with other elite occupations. I am a Professor in Physics & Astronomy at the University of Edinburgh. We have about 80 tenured faculty, so on average we are hiring a little over 2 academics per year. Our undergraduate intake fluctuates between 200 and 300 a year. So for those students, the odds are 100:1 that they will not end up with an academic job in physics. It doesn't put them off studying the subject, nor should it. So the issue is more what the typical postgraduate employment is like. There are lots of opportunities for people to go into music teaching, though it is less secure and less well paid than the jobs that an average physicist will end up in.
(2) Looking at the list of players, I found it striking that almost all of them seem to be ..... American. I contrast this with Europe, where people seem to occupy an international job market: plenty of UK clarinet principals are not Brits, and there are plenty of British players in continental orchestras (though perhaps the disaster of Brexit will change this). So somehow people cross the Atlantic less: is this cultural, or just the reality of work permits?
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Author: DaphnisetChloe
Date: 2022-03-10 01:04
To expand on what you wrote John, it is not only a case of few foreigners but there is also only one clarinetist on the list from outside the US who got a tenured position without having studied a degree in the States: Inn-hyuck Cho, in the Met. Kudos to this brilliant artist on achieving the near impossible! It just shows that while US degrees dont ensure any kind of audition success, they do help in a major way with the approach needed towards American auditions.
James Julian
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2022-03-11 03:59
"there is also only one clarinetist on the list from outside the US who got a tenured position without having studied a degree in the States"
A further thought: besides Lee Morgan in Copenhagen, are there any US clarinet players who currently hold jobs in European orchestras?
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Author: JTJC
Date: 2022-03-11 13:52
There are two Americans in the Hong Kong Phil and the third player is US trained, Eastman, I think.
There are barriers to players crossing the pond which don’t exist in Europe. The EU allows free movement across countries, whereas there are immigration barriers to the US. That’s not to say players haven’t tried. I know of one top UK player who auditioned for the Met. I believe the principal of the Rotterdam went for the LA job. Neither were successful, but with their knowledge of the classical music business and contacts etc must have led them to think there was a chance of success.
Another factor which I don’t think has been mentioned regarding success in getting these jobs, is the personality of the player. You have to ‘fit’ in these jobs/orchestras as a player of the right standard. No matter how good a player you are you won’t get in without current players being comfortable with you on many levels. Similar cultural background (US/EU) will be part of that. I believe the Berlin Phil is well known for this. They consider themselves a family so are very particular about who they let in, no matter how good a player. I heard one of their ex-principal clarinets, now a conductor, say the orchestra was a odd like that.
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Author: Djudy
Date: 2022-03-11 14:45
Only 13 of 108 are women, many of whom are on Eb or bass, and of which 5 hold Principal positions (of which 2 are co-Principal in the same orchestra).
*edit* my apologies to the women whose names I could not identify as belonging to female musiciens; this being made clear by the complete listing above does bring it to 19
Post Edited (2022-03-14 15:28)
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2022-03-12 22:53
Very interesting and comprehensive. I retired from the Baltimore Symphony several years ago, bass clarinet. I graduated from the Manhattan School and attended the Manners College of Music as well. I taught at the Peabody Conservatory and have a student from there playing Bass clarinet in the Toronto Symphony and had several others in "minor" orchestra's.
I have a website with an article titled "Following Your Dream" which several teachers have asked me if they may share in the past. Anyone considering a career as a symphony player should read it. Getting a decent clarinet job in a major orchestra is probably one of the most competitive jobs in our country. My website is listed below, it's free.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2022-03-12 23:24
Djudy- I count 19 women. It's still a very unfair ratio. Hopefully things will change in the very near future in US orchestras.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2022-03-13 00:04
Checking statistical lists makes me dizzy, but I also get 19 women. Shannon Orme's name (Detroit Symphony)is misspelled as "Orne."
Here's my reading of the women's list:
1) Amy Zoloto (Cleveland Symphony)
2) Shannon Orme (Detroit Symphony)
3) Victoria Luperi (Pittsburg Symphony)
4) Laura De Luca (Seattle Symphony)
5) Diana Haskell (St. Louis Symphony)
6) Patricia DiLutis (Buffalo Symphony)
7) Laura Arden (Atlanta Symphony)
8) Marci Gurnow (Atlanta Symphony)
9) Jessica Phillips (N Y Met Opera)
10) Sheryl Renk (San Diego Symphony)
11) Katherine Kohler (Nashville Symphony)
12) Cathryn Gross (Indianapolis Symphony)
13) Susan Warner (Chicago Lyric Opera)
14) Joanne Eisler (San Francisco Opera)
15 Ashley Bocher (Washington National)
16) Linda Baker (Chicago Symphony)
17) Ixi Chen (Cincinnati Symphony)
18) Tzuying Huang (St. Louis Symphony)
19) Erin Svobada (Utah Symphony)
Post Edited (2022-03-13 01:24)
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Author: donald
Date: 2022-03-13 08:48
There are many more women in sections, but it probably also depends on the definition of "top orchestra". Kathleen Costello comes to mind among others
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2022-03-13 21:46
Don't forget turnover in orchestras is slow. An example, I was in the BSO for 50 years, our former 2nd was there for 51, our assistant was there for 52 and our former 1st about 36. More and more women will fill positions over the years as they are doing in the strings and flutes. Takes time for turnovers.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2022-03-14 05:58
Excellent research!!
I used to have a very comprehensive list of Orchestras with the Clarinet sections Worldwide with links to them but it was too time intensive to keep up with.
When my website got bought out by a new telecom, I didn’t import it over.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2022-03-14 06:18
There is no “we must select a male” in any Orchestra listed.
They try to select the best player at the Audition. No charity, no schemes.
“The best player wins the gig.”
Should always, always be that way.
But what happens when it isn’t the case? Could there be bias in the selection committee based on M/F membership on said committee?
What if say there were 6 committee members - with 3 Male and 3 Female required. If Principal isn’t F, go down the row until an F is found. Whatever distance is from the Principal, the player is still a very strong Musician to make the group.
With an equal judging committee of Male and Female, would the candidates still win the same? Are males and females playing differently enough that a male selection committee selects another male unless a female destroys them? (As when my good friend Diana Haskel won St Louis, she crushed most all there). That was told to me by a guy who was there.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: donald
Date: 2022-03-14 11:57
Here in NZ 50% of the full-time orchestral players are female.
That said, there's definitely sexism at play - for example a young female player who has been playing professionally in Europe for the last decade and who has recently won trials in TWO European orchestra... she won a trial in one of the top orchestras here and played really well but was not given the job.
A player on the committee commented to me (thinking I'd guffaw along with him) that "well, she wasn't much to look at".
As for the Berlin Phil choosing people who have to fit in to their elite club... that's not new. Some orchestral sections are very fair and ethical, but there are no shortage of stories where the winner of the audition was subject to a trial period that was little more than a popularity contest.
Case in point- Timpanist, flute player and Trumpet players I can name who were "not good enough for the job" and then went on to win multiple jobs in far better orchestra.
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Author: JTJC
Date: 2022-03-14 16:34
Isn’t there also an element of some selection panels knowing a player is basically too good for their orchestra? Though it’s always a pleasure to hear great playing you don’t want it to constantly remind the rest of the wind section of their failings. However it was dressed up in publicity or their own minds, I’m sure the orchestras Donald refers to knew those players were too good. It’s also true that a really great player is going to be off to a better orchestra as soon as they can. In addition to quality of players, ‘better’ might also be in terms of the employment package, location or other criteria personal to a player.
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The Clarinet Pages
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in Hong Kong .. to JTJC's post