 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: rrayneau
Date: 2021-11-15 17:14
Older person here playing for 4 years. I play in a community band.
I like to practice scales using the Tonal Energy tuner on my phone. I play a drone on the root note. I then try and judge the accuracy of intonation by listening rather than looking.
I usually set it to equal temperament. Is that correct or should I be on just intonation?
Grateful for any observations.
Bob
rrayneau@gmail.com
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Author: Ken Lagace
Date: 2021-11-15 18:44
Chords are in Just Tuning, thirds are lower and fifths higher - and pianos with set pitches are in Equal Temperament.
Either way, the ear is boss and you tune to whatever sounds correct.
Probably good to listen in both tunings.
Post Edited (2021-11-15 18:55)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2021-11-15 18:47
For me, I think it's great to do equal parts "watching the dial" then listening. Naturally while playing in a group, listening is the skill you need most. However, it is important to have an accurate paradigm on which to base that (particularly for the highest notes and even the lowest chalumeau notes which can be tricky to wrap one's ear sround).
Yes, mostly we use more of the tempered scale than "just tuning" (but as a melodic instrument we can't help making sevenths a little high for example).
............Paul Aviles
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2021-11-15 19:06
Thanks for the edit Ken. I think, if not mistaken, that the only folks doing "just tuning" per chord are barber shop quartets (that's what gives them that singular sound).
............Paul Aviles
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Author: brycon
Date: 2021-11-15 19:19
Quote:
I like to practice scales using the Tonal Energy tuner on my phone. I play a drone on the root note. I then try and judge the accuracy of intonation by listening rather than looking.
I usually set it to equal temperament. Is that correct or should I be on just intonation?
I'm not for sure how you'd play intervals against a drone pitch and think in terms of equal temperament. Are your ears capable of hearing the pure fifth and then purposively manipulating it so that it's exactly 1/12 of a Pythagorean comma smaller?
Tuning is complicated. And most people manipulate pitch depending on the circumstances in which they find themselves: more equally-tempered playing when performing solo, with piano, or perhaps even solo lines in an ensemble; more pure intervals when playing harmony parts in an ensemble. Imagine, though, that you're playing a harmony part in a section. You have the same pitch repeated several times while the harmonic underpinnings below you change. Will you alter slightly the intonation of your pitch to accommodate the changes?
For myself, I try to practice so that I can play perfectly in tune with a piano. But I also train my ears on a daily basis so that in ensembles I can easily and almost instinctively make adjustments.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2021-11-15 20:56
Just speaking as one who's done the "drone" practicing quite a bit, I'd say you "pay attention" when you hit tonics or fifths, and the rest is just "there."
Equal temperament is merely, A=440, D=587, C=523 (cycles per second) etc. etc.
Unless I am mistaken
................Paul Aviles
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Author: Ken Lagace
Date: 2021-11-15 22:25
To elaborate on Paul's' information;
In Equal Temperament, the pitches are mathematically equal steps in an octave.
In Just Tuning, the intervals are chosen to be mathematically equal to the overtone series.
And, the overtones aren't in tune with the Equal Temperament notes.
So a player has to tune by listening, and the choice of practicing in either system is a listening exercise of tuning to whatever is happening at the moment.
Here is a good example of how string players tune. Clarinet players have to do the same in a different way, with embouchure and/or fingering adjustments.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaYOwIIvgHg&t=24s
For the history of how this all evolved (music acoustics starts at 1:40);
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdYzqLgMmgk&t=177s
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2021-11-16 00:20
On a tuning app, if you choose a temperament other than Equal Temperament, then all of the intervals above your chosen tonic will be offset from equal temperament by a certain number of cents. By default, they set the tonic as C, but you can change this by selecting what they call a transposition.
So let's say you wanted to practice Just Tuning on intervals above B-flat. If you want to check the the intervals visually on your tuner, then you have to select Just Intonation and set the transposition to B-flat.
Bob- I think that the easiest would be to learn the offset (in cents) of the tuning system that you want to use. Leave your tuner on equal temperament. Try to find the pure interval above the drone note. (Personally I find it easier to hear if I am flat than if I am sharp. So if I'm not sure where I am I would approach the note from slightly below until it rings in tune). Once your ear tells you that you are in tune, then visually check the tuner and see if what you heard is correct, taking into account the offset number of cents higher or lower than equal temperament. This is not a bad way to train yourself to hear correctly.
Another cool thing to try while working with a drone is to see if you can hear difference tones. A difference tone is a third tone which appears when two tones are sounded together. They are much easier to hear when playing in the high register because the difference tones are lower than the two pitches which produce them. If your difference tone is in tune, then you know that your interval is in tune in Just Intonation. For example: set your tuner to play a drone (eg. G in the clarion register). Play a major third above this (in this case B natural). If both tones are loud enough, you will hear a G an octave below the drone. If the difference tone G is in tune with the G drone, then you know that your major third is in tune.
(When I say G I mean a G on the clarinet which, if you are playing a B-flat clarinet, will be an F on your tuner. But I guess you know that already?)
I need to clarify something that Ken wrote "thirds are lower and fifths higher". MAJOR thirds are lower in Just Intonation, but MINOR thirds are much higher in Just Intonation.
Post Edited (2021-11-16 00:25)
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Author: Ken Lagace
Date: 2021-11-16 01:10
Thanks Liquorice for the clarification.
It is also well known that most humans hear flat easier than sharp and that it is a good idea to play as low as possible without being flat. The consequence of that tendency is that if you are low, you quickly hear 'flat' and raise the pitch to where you might become a bit high. But then those around you hear flat and raise their pitch to above yours etc. etc. This is notorious in groups where players don't understand this fact about human hearing.
(Did I mention amateur flute players???)
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2021-11-16 04:35
I don't worry too much about it. I just go for as close as possible to the tuner without driving myself nuts. I do take pains to hit the octaves dead on, and to check my overall pitch.
I would suggest that if you are playing with a drone that you skip the tuner, or only use the tuner to help when you aren't sure (like playing 2nds). Then use only your ear. The tuner will actually tell you to play out of tune with the drone, so you will either not trust your ears, or you will train your ear to hear unnatural intervals. Drones and tuners are for different purposes. I really like my metronome because the click is a "C". I use it to keep on pitch.
When I'm playing in a group it doesn't matter what the tuner says (unless it helps). You can be dead on and horribly out of tune. I look for what is most pretty, what matches the group, or what brings out the character of the chord the best.
I just commented on a terrible YouTube video that was a disaster of misinformation about music theory, history, and equal temperament. Temperaments are primarily a solution to the problem of how to tune a keyboard. The problem is that is if you tune it to sound great in one key, it's sounds bad in other keys. They're all compromises.
If you use just/meantone/etc. temperament it's no good because you will have to tune the key of D different than C, etc.
It's not as relevant to playing wind instruments because you can tune every key exactly the way you want. Also, it's virtually impossible to play in any given "temperament" because 1. other people are out of tune, and 2. you instinctively play purer intervals than would be calculated according to any given temperament. Some people may have pitch that good, but they're probably the ones playing out of tune with everyone else, and mad because everybody is "out of tune".
I actually think that equal temperament has messed with people's minds because I'm pretty sure that some people sing their intervals wrong, and will then blame you for tuning correctly. One guy I know is always slightly off on 4ths and 5ths and won't budge, so I have to sing bad intervals to be "in tune". I can only assume he's singing equally tempered intervals because he's a pianist.
- Matthew Simington
Post Edited (2021-11-16 04:44)
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Author: brycon
Date: 2021-11-16 19:27
Quote:
In Just Tuning, the intervals are chosen to be mathematically equal to the overtone series.
It was my understanding that just intonation involves ratiotically pure intervals above or below a given tonic pitch (e.g. a perfect fifth, with a ration of 3:2, would yield an E=660 above an A=440). I believe that the overtone series has in-tune octaves (2:1) but other pitches of varying degrees of in-tuneness. For this reason, spectral music, which makes use of the overtone series, requires players to approximate the series using microtones.
Quote:
I just commented on a terrible YouTube video that was a disaster of misinformation about music theory, history, and equal temperament. Temperaments are primarily a solution to the problem of how to tune a keyboard. The problem is that is if you tune it to sound great in one key, it's sounds bad in other keys. They're all compromises.
Yes, I believe many temperaments are solutions to tuning keyboard instruments (which was why I was confused about the OP's question!). But I wouldn't say that meantone temperaments aren't good. I think that many baroque specialists, for instance, still use Valotti, which is a combination of 1/6 comma meantone and Pythagorean. At any rate, the result of some keys ringing more purely and others more pungently must have been used by composers to great effect.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-11-16 20:31
Hi,
I wondered if you might be able to recommend a book that explains the difference between just tuning and equal temperament and what overtones are?
I learned about equal temperament from The Story of Music
by Howard Goodall, but I don't know much about the other two things.
I just tried playing the opening chord of Violin Sonata No. 1 in G minor on my violin and it sounds amazing. I've only played Scots fiddle music before. I haven't got as far as the second Bb yet.
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Author: Ken Lagace
Date: 2021-11-16 22:09
There is plenty on YouTube;
Examples
Overtones;
https://study.com/academy/lesson/overtone-definition-lesson-quiz.html
The clarinet, being a closed cylinder, has strong even overtones - 2nd, 4th, 6th etc. The register key triggers the 2nd overtone, left index finger off triggers the 4th etc.
Flute, an open cylinder, and saxes, oboe and bassoon, all closed cones, trigger the 1st overtone (octave) and other overtones are triggered by specific fingerings.
Also, the strength of particular overtones makes sounds identifiable to the human ear as to what the are.
Tuning;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_temperament
Or try some of these;
https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=music+tuning+systems+explanation&atb=v190-1&ia=web
Post Edited (2021-11-17 00:10)
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2021-11-17 11:45
The overtone series is a natural phenomenon. It's the physical law that makes intervals sound "in tune", and what makes harmony work. Without it you couldn't have music.
If you pluck a string (like a guitar string) you get one note. If you touch it very lightly exactly in the middle and pluck it you get an octave above that. If you touch it 1/3 along the length you get the 5th above that. Etc. The places where you touch it are called "nodes".
The same thing happens if you use the same size string at the same tension, but half as long, 1/3rd as long, etc. That's why you touch the string right above certain frets. The 12th fret high E is half the length of the E string, etc.
I think Boethius discusses all of this, but I don't have my text anymore and I might be getting part of it mixed up with something else more explicit.
The reason pure intervals sound good is that they "fit" physically into the others according to whole number ratios. The "nodes" match up, and the frequencies align numerically. When they are out of tune you hear "beats", which are the frequencies and/or wavelengths not matching up - like blinking lights that are out of sync. They're physically clashing with one another. The air is turbulent rather than resonant. That's why it FEELS so much better when you are in tune. The horn vibrates more.
When people say that certain overtones are "out of tune" what they mean is that some of the higher partials are not notes that you can find on a piano. (Or maybe that the physical limitations of the vibrating body cause the frequency of the higher partials to be imperfect.) I hope they don't mean that they aren't equally tempered, because that would be backwards.
It's also why you can hear higher notes when you listen to a piano string decay. When you hit the note the fundamental is strongest. As the note gets softer there isn't enough energy in the string to make the whole thing bounce back and forth along it's entire length. So, it starts wobbling in a standing wave around 1/2 its length, then 1/3, then 1/4, and so on until there isn't enough energy left and it stops. The notes you actually hear depend on the properties of the string and its imperfections. That's also why you can press some of the keys without sounding the notes, play other notes, and the first ones will be vibrating at the frequency of the higher notes. It's also why opening the pedal makes the thing sound gianormus. It's because all the strings are vibrating sympathetically. Not just randomly, but with all of the matching partials. You are doubling all of the notes and partials.
When you create any sound overtones are present, and it is the mixture of the most prominent overtones that makes a flute sound different than a clarinet. Noise and other things play a role, but the overtone mixture is very important. A clarinet sounds really pure or hollow because it's missing half the overtones.
All temperaments are compromises because some keys sound bad, and they all sound a bit different. Lots of people think that composers used this to their advantage. That may be true with keyboard music, and by its influence maybe even wind and string music. The reason they allowed some keys to sound bad is because they wanted other ones to sound good. They weren't willing to give up the good intervals. Eventually they just gave up and settled with equal temperament. They didn't really have any choice because music got too chromatic. It's sort of like the compromise that no one is entirely happy with, but everybody accepts because it works best for everyone. That's why piano music is so melancholy, IMO. Everything is slightly out of tune.
When I was fooling around with the guitar I always tuned it differently when playing in E/A and G/D. You have to tune the B string to either the G or the E. You can't have it both ways. You either get the pure 5th, or the pure 3rd, but not both. It makes a huge difference. (supposedly Eddie Van Halen used the third). I NEVER tuned my guitar using the 4th fret method. It sounds like a car crash. I always tuned the octaves and fifths.
You may find that some clarinet fingerings work well for one key or piece, but not another.
This guy has some cool videos comparing temperaments:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRui9apjWAY&t=917s
- Matthew Simington
Post Edited (2021-11-17 11:55)
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Author: Luuk ★2017
Date: 2021-11-17 12:41
Very good explanation in Fundamentals of Musical Acoustics, Benade. Chapters 14 and 15.
Every musician with interest in basic analytical explanations of why musical things are as they are should own this book. Almost no maths involved!
Regards,
Luuk
Philips Symphonic Band
The Netherlands
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-11-17 17:57
Gosh. This is going to take some thought. :-)
Thanks to Matt for writing that all out, and to Luuk for the book recommendation.
I may be some time....
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