 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: GavinClarinet
Date: 2021-11-02 02:18
I'm hoping someone might be able to shed some light on a frustrating issue I'm having that is currently interfering with my enjoyment of clarinet playing.
Apologies for the length of the post, but I'll try to keep it to only relevant information.
I returned to the clarinet last year during lockdown after a short 30 years break, initially with a B&H Edgware. With some assistance from this board at the time, I was able to find a combination of barrel pull out/mouthpiece that allowed me to play it mostly in tune and be able to just about hold my own (and enjoy) playing in the local concert band when they restarted rehearsals this September.
However, the keywork is showing it's age and although I enjoy the tone, I feel that I am at the point that it is getting in the way of my improvement - particularly with altissimo and fast passages.
Last year I also picked up an Uebel Classic via a certain auction site, at a very good price, from 2010, that had been used for a few years and then left unplayed for some time.
This was with a tech for a while for a checkover/service, but unfortunately health issues meant they were unable to get too far with it - though they did confirm there were no structural problems/cracks, just the need of several pads.
I've managed to since get it repadded by someone within the band who is an experienced amateur and seems to have done a good job, but they do not play the clarinet so were unable to fully regulate or playtest the instrument. (I think 7 pads were changed).
The keywork on the Uebel is vastly better, so I'd like to make this my 'main' clarinet, but I've found the switch to it very difficult.
The increase in 'resistance' of the Uebel is significant, to the point that it makes it hard for me to reliably voice notes that I have no problem with on the Edgware.
Long C in particular (though all clarion are affected) seems to sometimes die off quickly in a way that simply never happens on the Edgware. It doesn't seem to be consistent either, though If I concentrate on producing a very strong stream of air it does seem to voice well.
All the notes play pretty much in tune up the range, which might suggest there is nothing weird going on with the bore in terms of warping?
I have tried different mouthpieces and reed strengths (full details below), and none of them seem to fully solve the issue. the same mouthpiece/reed combinations on the Edgware seems *vastly* easier to voice notes than on the Uebel.
I feel a bit as if I've hit a 'block' that I'd like to overcome to be able to continue enjoying playing, ideally with the Uebel.
Any help or guidance would be welcome, but I think the relevant questions that I have are:
1. Is such a significant resistance change to be expected when going from a (slightly) larger bore B&H to whatever bore the Uebel has (I believe this is not given out, but presume it to be nearer the standard French Bore)?
2. Could this be due to poor regulation/key height issues that are worth the effort to get it seen by an experienced tech? (There are not many locally and I'd prefer not to rely on postal options to the big stores). I am fairly sure that the pads are sealing well - the suction test seems to pass. Would these sort of regulation issues show across the clarinet, or only on particular notes/12ths?
3. Is this just a 'me' problem that will need time and practice to overcome? If so, apart from the obvious long tones, what exercises are likely to help?
4. Is the Uebel likely to be different in terms of resistance to any comparable level instrument? I am open to changing instrument if necessary, but don't really need/want to go to the 'professional' level of instrument for what I am likely to do in the near future. (amateur concert band)
5. Is getting the 'right' mouthpiece for me and the instrument likely to make the difference between being able to play comfortably or not? If so, are there ones that are likely to be worth investigating/play testing at or around the same level as the Vandoren ones? I've settled on Legere European Signature Cut as my preferred reed in the last year, and have found around 2.5 the comfortable zone for me .
Boring Detail:
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New Clarinet: Uebel 888 (Classic) - from 2010
Old Clarinet : B&H Edgware from approx 1970
Mouthpieces tried:
B45 (came with the Uebel when new)
B40
5RV
M15
which seems to cover most of the range of tip openings. I can make them all 'work' on the Edgware, though my current favourite is the 5RV with 2.5/2.75 Legere
Apologies for the rather long post, but any guidance welcome...
Gavin
"Clarinets, like lawyers, have cases, mouthpieces, and they need a constant supply of hot air in order to function."
- Victor Borge
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Author: paulyb
Date: 2021-11-02 02:36
The easiest way to check whether it's you or the clarinet is probably to ask an experienced player to play it (and possibly your Edgware as well) and see whether they have a similar experience to you. They may also be able to identify any mechanical setup issues there may be on the Uebel. Do you know anyone who could help you in this way?
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Author: GavinClarinet
Date: 2021-11-02 03:13
paulyb wrote:
> The easiest way to check whether it's you or the clarinet is
> probably to ask an experienced player to play it (and possibly
> your Edgware as well) and see whether they have a similar
> experience to you. They may also be able to identify any
> mechanical setup issues there may be on the Uebel. Do you know
> anyone who could help you in this way?
Thanks for the suggestion. I'm hoping to ask one of the other band members on Wednesday to see what they think, though with Covid I'll understand if she may be wary at the moment.
I suspect it's me, but it's the variance between the two clarinets that has me wondering....
"Clarinets, like lawyers, have cases, mouthpieces, and they need a constant supply of hot air in order to function."
- Victor Borge
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Author: KenJarczyk
Date: 2021-11-02 07:58
First, throw away any and all Vandoren mouthpieces. You’re almost fixed!
Second, the Boosey is a large bore instrument, that means it will be less resistant. The price for that low resistance is uneven 12ths.
Third, the Uebel is a German clarinet, German clarinet bores need a different approach in mouthpieces. You will need a longer lay, but less open mouthpiece. Try a Clark Fobes Europa model. You’ll thank me in the morning. Good reed match for the Europa would be the Legere EuroCut 3.0 to 3.25.
Ken Jarczyk
Woodwinds Specialist
Eb, C, Bb, A & Bass Clarinets
Soprano, Alto, Tenor & Baritone Saxophones
Flute, Alto Flute, Piccolo
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Author: ACCA
Date: 2021-11-02 12:51
some thoughts:
1. a Uebel will be more resistant, in terms of air, than a Edgeware. Also more in tune!
2. To compensate you may want a mouthpiece that is less resistant from an airflow point of view, which is different from tip opening (embouchure resitance). I have used a Selmer C85 for band work with good results. There are others out there. look from the bore end up towards the tip of the mouthpiece. On Vandorens among others you will see quite a narrow chamber. Some like this resistance to push against. For others (like me!) it causes us problems especially at the volume of a concert band setting.
3 with all due respect to your band colleague, I wonder if there's an issue with pad height and regulation of some of the lowest, largest pads on your instrument. Find an experienced tech who should also have some recommendations on a reliable courier to safely transport the instrument to and from. you won't regret it.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2021-11-02 13:23
My first thought was that however replaced the pads that needed replacing didn’t do a great job so the clarinet it probably leaking somewhere which will be why you’re getting the resistance. I also think this because you say that the B&H Edgware plays fine.
I would first take it to a professional technician to have it looked over.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: GavinClarinet
Date: 2021-11-02 15:54
Thanks for the responses,
Gives me some hope that it's not just me that's the problem in this case!
I've found a technician about 30 minutes away so waiting to hear from them as to availability - sadly there seem to be fewer around these days, even in a fairly well populated area. Howarths is probably my nearest actual shop that offers repairs, all the local ones are only guitar or drum related...
Also interested in the comments re mouthpieces. The Uebel originally came with a B45 which presumably was considered an OK fit, though looking down it there doesn't seem to be much difference in size with the chamber to any of the other Vandorens I have.
I've been thinking of play testing some mouthpieces to find the 'right' one (I remember the difference it made back in the 80s when I switched to a Peter Eaton one).
For the bore of the Uebel, it sounds like a larger chamber one may be beneficial?
Aside from the Selmer and Clarke Fobes Europa suggested, are there any others that are worth investigating?
I'll likely have to obtain via post from somewhere like Dawkes or Howarth to be able to play test several, and that tends to limit the range somewhat.
I did have a Backun Vocalise on my potential list (based partly on the video from Dawkes with you Peter!), because it seems to play nicely with Legere.
Any others that could be added to the 'trial list' once any instrument technical issues are resolved - Christmas is coming after all
I'll let you know what happens with the tech, I know how frustrating it is not to get an update once advice is given!
Gavin
"Clarinets, like lawyers, have cases, mouthpieces, and they need a constant supply of hot air in order to function."
- Victor Borge
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2021-11-02 16:42
It needs to be diagnosed by a professional repair technician who plays clarinet. It could be a minor issue like a ring height or something more involved.
Steve Ocone
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Author: m1964
Date: 2021-11-05 01:58
GavinClarinet wrote:
"I've managed to since get it repadded by someone within the band who is an experienced amateur and seems to have done a good job, but they do not play the clarinet so were unable to fully regulate or play test the instrument."
That 'repair' can be easily a problem. I am only saying that because where I live, there is a repair technician who plays brass instrument but fixes everything from flutes to saxes (and brass ones too).
I've seen his work and it was not so good.
A good tech needs to be able to play the instrument (or have a professional musician play it for him) in order to regulate the key/pad openings, springs tension, etc.
It is not difficult to check for leaks. The difficult part is to have balanced springs (like register and throat A keys), F#/C# that is not too tight but still hold air, craw foot adjusted, Lt. F/C lever regulated for quick and precise action.
I'd take it to a tech who can play it. Asking another player to test the instrument is not going to help you unless that player does some work on clarinets themselves.
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Author: GavinClarinet
Date: 2021-11-05 02:49
Brief update...
The soloist at the concert band played the Uebel briefly on Wednesday and didn't find it immediately problematic with her mouthpiece (5RV 13), though it was only a brief test and she plays a Buffet RC I believe....
I've managed to book it in with an experienced clarinet technician to give it a check-over, though he can't look at it for another 3 weeks or so.
Assuming that any adjustments he makes will improve, but not transform it, I'd like to start thinking about a short list of mouthpieces to audition for it. Given the lack of suitable local shops it will likely have to be ones that are available on trial via mail order in the UK (though a visit to Howarths in London is quite possible)
I've already had a couple of recommendations (Clark Fobes Europa - Selmer C85), but I'd welcome any other suggestions to give me the best experience with the Uebel.
I'm unlikely to progress much beyond the local concert band anytime soon, so more concerned with ease of playing than perfection in terms of tone control etc - at least until my breath control perhaps improves...
Uebel now seem to be suggesting/supplying ESM mouthpieces for their clarinets in the US, but doesn't seem that they are (easily) available in the UK.
Any other suggestions?
"Clarinets, like lawyers, have cases, mouthpieces, and they need a constant supply of hot air in order to function."
- Victor Borge
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2021-11-05 03:54
Good luck Gavin. Re mouthpieces for sure try each model of the Backun Vocalise (I’m a Backun artist), also try the Selmer Concept, Focus and the new Echo. I would also consider the D’Addario Reserve line of mouthpieces, the Evolution is the newest.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: GavinClarinet
Date: 2021-12-02 15:52
Just wanted to update my post.
I took the clarinet to a tech who did full checkover, corrected a leak in the A key and a couple of pad heights, but also adjusted all the spring tensions correctly and several other things, and it plays vastly better - and presumably how it should.
Should anyone need a good repair tech in SE London, then I can highly recommend Gary Holdsworth (Easy to find online).
I've since been to Howarths and found that a Backun Vocalise R2 works very nicely with the Legere European Cut reed I favour. I was also very tempted by the CG, but it was just slightly too open for me.
So now I know it's all down to me and practise to rediscover my "chops"...
Thanks to everyone for the helpful response.
I'm not quite there yet, since I am now a touch flat across the instrument at 440 so am working on a shorter barrel.
It seems the current Uebels come with a 65m and 63mm barrel, but mine only came with a 65mm.
I tried some Backun 64mm at Howarths but they were no better than the 65mm original, so working on getting a 62 or 63mm barrel to hopefully solve that wrinkle.
One final little query that perhaps someone with recent knowledge of Uebel might know in passing.
My clarinet is noted on the registration card only as a B-888 Serial Number #954xx. I've worked on the assumption that it's effectively a "Classic", but the current range have the model name printed on the top joint in silver inlay - either "Classic", "Advantage", etc.
Mine has only the Uebel logo with no silver inlay.
Google searches seem to suggest that these current models may have been introduced in 2013ish, but mine was purchased in September 2010 from a shop in Darlington according to the card.
Confusingly, B-888 seems to be applied to both Classic and Advantage online, though there is very little information available.
I've emailed Uebel directly, but anyone with the knowledge to confirm that what I have is a Classic, or perhaps a forerunner?
"Clarinets, like lawyers, have cases, mouthpieces, and they need a constant supply of hot air in order to function."
- Victor Borge
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2021-12-02 16:13
My experience is that excessive resistance is always due to leaks. A leaking “A” would make the whole horn play lousy. The difference between a sorta-ok seal and a good seal are profound.
- Matthew Simington
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2021-12-03 02:11
Hi Gavin,
Glad you got your Ubel looked at. I can’t help with the numbering issue but I just wanted to point out that the R2 Vocalise will be pitched at 442. UK pitch is officially 440 as you mention so the R might work out better. So as your embouchure develops again be watchful of the pitch. If you’re London based I’m happy to help if I can.
Peter Cigleris
Post Edited (2021-12-04 02:30)
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Author: GavinClarinet
Date: 2021-12-03 14:04
Thanks for the offer Peter, I might take you up on that (NW Kent based).
Howarths only had the R2/G2 in stock when I tested, although in this case it probably helps given that I'm flat at the moment. I'll certainly keep an eye on it as time goes on.
440 is very much a 'target' rather than reality in our band according to our conductor, but in the first session since getting things back I was able to blend without sounding completely out.
"Clarinets, like lawyers, have cases, mouthpieces, and they need a constant supply of hot air in order to function."
- Victor Borge
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