 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Chris Ondaatje
Date: 2001-07-18 09:46
I am interested in moving towards a more "Germanic" sound. Not the old characteristic tone but something like Karl Leister's sound. Alas my French instruments just won't cut it...at least not with me playing them. I am interestested in experimentation (Clarinet wise:) ).
Does anyone have any information on: Yamaha Reform Boehm Clarinets, Yamaha Oehler system(is it available at A=440 or442), Wurlizer Clarinets or any other instruments that may assist me in my noble quest.
Thanks Chris.
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Author: Mark Pinner
Date: 2001-07-18 10:19
There are a number of Oehler system makers in Europe you might consider looking at which make MODERN German system horns. I am currently using an F. Arthur Uebel 21 key Bb for general playing but Uebel makes many other models with more keywork and in other pitches Eb and A for example. Schreiber which are part of Boosey and Hawkes make many different models as well as some Buffet instruments and Oskar Adler is also a respected maker. The Hammerschmidt is considered to be the best and also the most expensive.
Thry Vandorens VD2/3/ series mouthpieces which use White Master reeds they are pretty good, they also make Austrian model mouthpieces which use Black Master Reeds. E Mail me back and I will go into more detail.
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Author: kny
Date: 2001-07-18 10:59
Hi,
I'm another clarinet player who experiment with clarinets. IMO, you do not need a german clarinet to get a german sound. Try changing the mouthpiece first.
Do remember that the german Oehler clarinets have a slightly different fingering system. If you accept the challenge to learn the german fingerings, I would recommend Austrian models as they have more alternate fingerings compared to their german counterparts . The Yamaha Reform Boehm clarinets are very expensive. See the following link
http://www.yamaha-europe.com/english/438.html
Some Manufacturers
Richard Keilwerth
www.keilwerth.de
F. Arthur Uebel
http://www.f-arthur-uebel.de/index.html
schwenk and seggelke
http://www.schwenk-und-seggelke.de/englisch/index.html
In the near future I may obtain a Yamaha Reform model. Does another know where I can get them without a few months wait?
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2001-07-18 18:00
Chris -
Steve Fox, who is a Sneezy sponsor, makes excellent Boehm system instruments with both French and German bores. He also maks a Benade NX instrument in two versions -- one with a large bore that needs an English-style mouthpiece and has a very Germanic tone quality, and one with a very small bore that uses a standard French mouthpiece and has a sound midway between Grench and German. I tried them both about a month ago and liked them very much.
Both Wurlitzer and Hammerschmidt make high quality German bore, German fingering instruments. They also make the same bore with Boehm fingering, but the consensus is that these are less successful. Maybe the best compromise is their Reform Boehm instruments. However, all the German bore instruments I have played (including Reform Boehms) have (for me) a big problem. You have to play pretty much their way or not at all. "You blow here and it comes out there," without much choice on your part.
The Chicago Symphony has a set of Wurlitzer German fingering clarinets to use for German music. I asked Larry Combs about them at the ClarinetFest in Columbus a couple of years ago, and he said he loved the sound but didn't care for the lack of flexibility. However, Leister and Sabine Meyer have no difficulty sounding any way the please on these instruments, so it's all what you grow up playing.
The upshot is that if you're used to playing a French instrument, you should be really sure you can get what you want out of a German instrument before making a switch. The only player I know of who's done it and stuck with it is Michele Zukovsky, the principal in Los Angeles.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: javier garcia
Date: 2001-07-18 18:38
Another german maker:
Adler
http://www.musikzentrum.de/holzblas/english/home.htm
and Hammerschmidt
http://www.oe-net.com/hammerschmidt/
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Author: Marcia Nottle
Date: 2001-07-18 19:02
Hi Chris
I have heard mention of the "French" and "German" sounds but never understood what was being referred to. Since you are on a quest for a "German" not "French" sound can you please tell me what the differences are? I did pose this question a while ago and most of the responses talked about different equipment rather than what the sound characteristics of each are. As I recall, your French clarinets sounded not too shabby!
Happy hunting
Marcia
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Author: thomas
Date: 2001-07-18 19:06
If you want to sound german you need a Oehler clarinet or a German Boehm in my opinion (see my thread E13 help). I think the best mps are Viotto mps (very popular G3-facing with Vandoren White Master, Leister plays it I was told). If you do not want to learn the Oehler finerings you should try a german Boehm. Most famous instrument makers offer not only Oehler but German Boehm: Very good: H. Wurlitzer, W. Dietz, Leitner+Kraus (all in Neustadt /Aisch), Schwenk+Seggelke (Bamberg),
Hying (Düsseldorf). They are all handmade, you can also try the German Boehm from Yamaha. If you learn the Oehler fingering you can also buy German sounding instruments from standard manufacturers like Schreiber, Übel, Keilwerth, Hammerschmidt, Yamaha, but they do not have this quality. The difference in sound between Boehm and Oehler bore is tremendous, I love both!
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Author: Werner Kraft
Date: 2001-07-18 22:09
About three years ago after 15 years I decided to play the clarinet again.
I went into the next shop and had a look at their German systems. The assistant gave me tree clarinets: a Keilwerth 21 key 4 rings (DM 1500), a Yamaha 21 keys 4 rings (DM 1500), and a Yamaha 24 keys 6 rings (DM 3000).
I went home and played them. There was almost no difference between the two 21 key clarinets. But the 24 key clarinet: Wow. My wife said: You HAVE to buy that clarinet ! The difference between them was like the difference between an cheap children bell and the bell of our local church.
In other words: You get what you pay for.
Later I played my teachers Herbert Wurlitzer 100c (DM 10000). There was very little difference between my Yamaha and this Wurlitzer clarinet because:
My embouchure - not bad for an amateurs embouchure by the way - is not good enough to produce the difference. There *is* a difference between these clarinets when they are being played by my teacher: He didn't spend that money for nothing. Besides of the accoustical differences: The keywork of that H. Wurlitzer clarinet is a dream and itself reason enough to buy one of them .. in another life maybe .. I'm an amateur and I don't earn money with my playing.
I ended with this 24 key Yamaha clarinet (A=442), an Zinner crystal 3M mouthpiece, and Steuer reeds (blue line - S 800 - 3)
About a year ago I played for the first time in my life an Boehm system:
I came across a Buffet greenline and played it with my setup.
I read a lot about the differences: sound, resistance and so on and was very disappointet because I felt nothing special about that clarinet. There wasn't something remarkable in the sound of that clarinet. I wasn't able to produce something special: this 'bright fluid Boehm sound'  I only heard the same old Werner playing. Is it my amateur embouchure or was it the bad accoustic of the room (German music fair) or perhaps there *is* very little difference between a German and a Boehm system of the same price range and is the player/setup-unit more important than the clarinet ? I don't know.
I talked about that with my teacher (he was in a Leister-masterclass ten years ago by the way). He said it is proved that it is possible to produce with an French system the same results as with an German system.
Have a nice quest
Werner
And I never will play like Leister. Not with an Oehler and not with an Boehm.
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Author: Chris Ondaatje
Date: 2001-07-19 11:17
Thanks for the replies. The point about not sounding like Leister with Oehler or Boehm is well taken. I realise the impossibility and undesirability of sounding exactly like another individual. It's just that I feel Leister has a quality of tone and legato that I would love to approach.
Marcia Nottle, lovely to talk to you again. The problem aboout describing the difference between a French and German tone usually degenerates into a struggle with semantics. Words are too clumsy to express a sound. Perhaps if I use the examples of players I admire I can give you an idea of what I would like in tone quality. For example I would rather sound like Karl Leister than Paul Meyer (a fine French player unfortunately for my taste he uses vibrato). I prefer Ernst Ottensammer to Dieter Klocker ( Ernst baby is Austrian with a lovely style of phrasing, Klocker has a bright "clipped", cleanly articulated style) already I have started to use adjectives with which everyone can quibble over definitions. With French system players I love the sound of Antony Pay but Thea King (another excellent player) has a tone with a little to much edge for my liking.
I don't mind my sound but a feel a little frustrated at some aspects of it, hence the search in the German direction.
Thanks Chris.
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Author: Robin
Date: 2001-07-19 13:35
I could well be wrong, but I thought that Dieter Klocker played German instruments and that Ernst Ottensamer played Bohm system.
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Author: Larry Combs
Date: 2001-07-20 03:58
I have had six years of experience playing the German system clarinets in the Chicago Symphony Orchestra (our section normally uses them on certain repertoire which we feel will be enhanced by this sound).
Sometimes our choice to use them or not has very much to to with the technical difficulty of the piece--Beethoven 1st is not a problem-Til Eulenspiegel is!
We use the top line Herbert Wurlitzer instruments (except John Bruce Yeh's set of Yamahas, which are excellent) with Heinz Viotto N1 mouthpiece and Steuer or Vandoren White Master reeds.
A good player can probably make a typical French(American?) setup sound like a good German player, but if that's what you want why not do the whole thing? It's an interesting challenge.
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Author: Gregory Smith
Date: 2001-07-20 04:57
I have to mention that Larry is quite right and reflects my experience with the full
German system as well. As someone who experimented with trying to get a French system clarinet to sound more "German" such as what I thought was ideal years ago as a student (Karl Leister for instance) it always ended in a certain amount of frustration. Now years later after playing the Wurlitzers in the orchestra I know that acoustically speaking the only practical way to sound authentically "German" is to play those type of instruments. Anything else is a compromise in my opinion.
I suppose that we can incorporate the qualities of the German sound into French clarinets to varying degrees. If one listens to the fine French clarinetist Pascqal Moragues as I have - who plays a Buffet, Vandoren reeds and mouthpiece, one would swear that they were listening to the closest thing to Karl Leister (Moragues' obvious inspiration vis a vis sound).
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2001-07-22 19:53
Thank you Chris for initiating this thread, and thanks to all for the very professional and knowledgable responses. I have had these questions also, even as a "semi-pro", and considering the expense of a bit of research, have opted for just some large-bore Fr-Am experience. Again, TKS, Don
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Author: javier garcia
Date: 2001-07-23 13:54
Robin, as you can see at the Hammerschmidt site, Ernst Ottensamer plays German system, look at the photo of the Wienner Philarmoniker clarinetists:
http://www.oe-net.com/hammerschmidt/
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