 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2011-06-08 15:14
Before I delve into the question I would love to hear people's comments on, please consider the following idea:
"Clarinetists are most attached to their mouthpieces, and least attached to their ligatures."
Maybe a good number of people, even ligature fanatics, would agree.
Maybe not.
So--what do you think about your ligatures importance in your performance? I know some of you consider your ligature a near epiphany in improving your artistry, while others feel that as long as the "dang thing" is reliable and evenly holds the base of my reed--and lets the "business end" tip of my reed do its vibrating, a ligature is a ligature is a ligature.
Now, clearly there are lousy ligatures...things made of plastic with screws that strip. And on the other end of the spectrum, their are works of art and engineering (whose improvement to the artistry remains questionable).
But for the 85%+ of ligatures which simply do their job, just how important is A) your ligature to you, and B) the ligature in general?
Yes--I would agree--a player best spend time correcting other flaws in their playing first before ligature switch. But holding all else constant, how much do YOU think your ligature, and the ligature in general affects performance?
Thanks all!
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Author: weberfan
Date: 2011-06-08 16:19
If professional or highly experienced players believe the ligature makes a difference, then it does.
For me, a rank amateur, it's a matter of ease/comfort in putting it on and taking it off and making sure it doesn't inhibit my playing.
I've used the metal thing that came with an old clarinet, i've tried a Vandoren leather (too bulky, seemed to damp the sound a little), a Rovner (easy to use and a good backup) and a Bonade inverted. I'm sticking with the Bonade. Works fine. Doesn't cost a fortune.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2011-06-08 17:12
Well, the thing is you needn't "hold all else constant." So the result ends up being the sum total of the player, the mouthpiece, the reed, the ligature and the instrument (you may want to consider the barrel separately as well), any one of which can be changed/adjusted,twiddled with to compensate for the combined qualities of the rest. If the ligature holds the reed in place, it's doing its job.
Do I think the ligature affects the total result? Yes - at least to my own ears. But whatever affect it has - good or bad - can be neutralized - for good or ill - by slightly changing my mouth shape, adjusting my reeds slightly differently, choosing a different mouthpiece or barrel or some combination of those. Since the reed and ligature are the least expensive parts of the equipment chain, they tend to be the ones most easily fixated on, followed by the mouthpiece and barrel and ultimately the instrument itself.
Then, of course, there is the part with the greatest effect of all, the one that sometimes gets lost in all the worrying about the others.
Karl
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2011-06-08 18:03
Karl--you're absolutely correct that the various components of the clarinet, from its bell, to the barrel, to, of course, its player, all contribute to the artistry.
When I said, "holding all else constant," I meant, "keeping all else as indentical as possible, from player, to horn, to reed, does ligature affect performance?"
I guess I suspect some will respond "yes," and that it's subjective. And I completely respect that.
Maybe it's those differences that players perceive that interests me most.
Thanks though for your thoughts.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2011-06-08 19:58
Interestingly (or maybe not), partly spurred by your question I went to my desk full of clarinet junk and pulled out a Bonade (inverted chrome) and sat down to compare it to the Rovner (I think it was called an EVO model - Rovner no longer seems to list it, but it's similar to a Rovner "Light" with the openings in the back). I switched back and forth several times, carefully holding the reed still with my left thumb while I changed ligatures and operated the screws with my right hand.
What I found in this one small test was that I heard and felt a distinct difference between the sound and response of the two ligatures - but that the difference lasted all of about 5 or 10 seconds, long enough to play through the little Baermann passage I was using for the test. I wasn't even consciously adjusting anything, but somehow my ear was leading the rest of me toward whatever I needed to do to completely equalize two ligatures that, to read most of what's been posted about them on this BB, should be less subtly different.
Still, the only generalization I could make from this is that between *these two* ligatures, any choice I make will be based on other qualities (two screws to adjust on the Bonade vs. one on the Rovner, or the fact that the Rovner is less likely to mark up my mouthpiece, or that the Bonade fits better in the mouthpiece compartment in my case, etc.), and that I can evidently play happily and comfortably on either one.
Karl
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2011-06-08 20:07
I feel that a ligature DOES make a difference. Not a huge one, and I can play on most any ligature, but I feel some ligatures allow better response than others and some do affect the sound differently than others.
For a quick test, pick a Reed that is slightly hard or slightly too thin. On each, play a thick leather ligature, then a metal one that barely touches. Maybe you'll feel a difference too. For me, I use a thick leather one to deaden the response and brightness of a thin Reed, and use a light metal lig (such as VD optimum) to make articulation easier on a slightly harder Reed.
Maybe its placebo or maybe the sound response is only in my head, but I haven't heard complaints from my commander yet so I'll keep doing it this way.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Buster
Date: 2011-06-08 20:15
<But holding all else constant, how much do YOU think your ligature, and the ligature in general affects performance?>
I'm going to leave any subjective opinions out of this, but ligatures do affect performance. I felt the sheer terror of the ligature coming off the mouthpiece during the quick Bb to A change in Brahm's Third Symphony. THAT does affect performance.
-JH
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2011-06-08 21:55
ThatPerfectReed -
The instructions for the plastic Luyben ligature say that it must be tightened up very snug. When I do that with mine, it works well, though it's not a ligature I use regularly.
Ken Shaw
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Author: kdk
Date: 2011-06-08 22:19
The main reason why I stopped using Gigliotti ligatures several years ago was that it tended to slip during mouthpiece changes unless it was very tight. But the act of tightening it that much occasionally resulted in sheared-off screw shafts. After I had gone through all of the extra screws I had gotten many years ago and was having trouble getting more, I gave up and went on to something else. Another example of a ligature choice that made a difference, though not in my playing (as long as I had a spare ligature with me in case a screw sheared off on a job somewhere).
Karl
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2011-06-09 00:07
kdk wrote:
> The main reason why I stopped using Gigliotti ligatures several
> years ago was that it tended to slip during mouthpiece changes
> unless it was very tight. But the act of tightening it that
> much occasionally resulted in sheared-off screw shafts.
>
> Karl
I used to use gigliotti ligatures (and mouthpiece) as well. It WAS a great ligature, but I snapped a few screws myself and yes it was slippery. Wish I coulda used it, but I just don't have the patience and want something I can put on and off in a hurry, without fear of damaging it or having it slip.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2011-06-09 01:52
Apologies to any plastic ligature manufacturer whose product makes the grade, and whose limitations are based on performers who don't follow product directions--like tightening torque
Clearly---not all plastic ligatures need be bad. If I implied otherwise, mea culpa.
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2011-06-09 02:09
Karl--that you for taking the time to address this.
I wonder if any of your results, including preference of ligatures, or routinely detecting the difference you felt for the initial portions of your Baermann passages might have been affected by a test where you did not know if the ligature had changed, and to which one of the two you tested.
By no means I'm I suggested that your results, or the premise that ligatures DO make a difference is invalid...in fact..I suspect your results real and repeatable--in fact repeatable by other players as well.
..just wondering about, what another contributor already referred to concerning placebo effects...
And by the way--if all it is for a player (I'm not saying you) is placebo effect...so what? If we think a ligature plays better...if it simply adds to our confidence--even if science can't support the claim, so what?
Frankly, I need all the confidence I can get to repeated play difficult passages without mistakes, given that ligature prices are generally in affordable ranges!
I guess when it gets to the really expensive parts of the instrument, that I just don't want to metaphorically, "think I play better because I just went out and bought a snazzier instrument case" if you know what I mean. : - )
Our instrument's pedagogue, Tom Ridenour, who I think is such a clear thinker about the instrument, has a wonderful youtube video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7TwVEI5r6A on the basic requirements
of a ligature. I thought about him given Alexi's prior discussion on slipping ligatures when mouthpiece changes were indicated.
Thanks Karl---thanks all!
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Author: salzo
Date: 2011-06-09 11:04
Karl wrote:
"The main reason why I stopped using Gigliotti ligatures several years ago was that it tended to slip during mouthpiece changes unless it was very tight. But the act of tightening it that much occasionally resulted in sheared-off screw shafts. After I had gone through all of the extra screws I had gotten many years ago and was having trouble getting more, I gave up and went on to something else. Another example of a ligature choice that made a difference, though not in my playing (as long as I had a spare ligature with me in case a screw sheared off on a job somewhere)."
Karl,
I use the Gigliotti, but I removed the plastic screws and put metal ligature screws in instead. I use some that are a bit larger, and the screws will drill the plastic shafts. The Gigliotti I used for almost twenty years finally gave up the ghost-so it does last for a long time.
I remember during a lesson with GIgliotti one of my screws broke while I was playing, and it practically hit him in the face
"what was that!??"
"It was my ligature screw, it snapped"
He then went ballistic on me, telling me that I overtighten them, that he cant understand why people complain about his ligature screws breaking, that they all must be overtightening, and on and on.
I like my ligature very tight, in spite of everything I have heard about it needs to be loose to allow the reed to vibrate.
For most mouthpieces that I use, I prefer the Gigliotti. Funny thing is, I prefer the Bonade when using my Gigliotti mouthpieces.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2011-06-09 11:25
I guess in a way he was right, except that if you don't tighten it, it can slip when you change clarinets. I guess he used a lot more cork grease than I do.
:)
Karl
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Author: clariniano
Date: 2011-06-09 14:49
I've found that the ligature does make a difference, even for somewhat elementary players. I've found that when I switch most students to something like the Rovner light ligature, their sound is much freer than when students are using the most common type of metal ligature.
I've also tried a few ligatures in my past, though haven't replaced mine in about 10 years, and the only reason the last time I did was that the ligature broke, and got to test out several ligatures, ended up liking the Vandoren 771, which I still have and use. Back when I got it it was about $40 CDN.
Meri
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2011-06-09 15:04
salzo wrote:
> I remember during a lesson with GIgliotti one of my screws
> broke while I was playing, and it practically hit him in the
> face
> "what was that!??"
> "It was my ligature screw, it snapped"
>
> He then went ballistic on me, telling me that I overtighten
> them, that he cant understand why people complain about his
> ligature screws breaking, that they all must be overtightening,
> and on and on.
I met Gigliotti once at ClarinetFest and had the experience of telling him that his mouthpiece just didn't suit me. The resulting rant that ensued, directed at me and anyone connected with my lineage, was phenomenal.
Luckily there were other alternatives to him ...
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2011-06-09 15:48
Maybe this is somewhat tangential to the original discussion on ligature importance itself, but it does have to do with the degree of its tightness.
Let's assume you're working with a ligature that is successfully designed to hold the reed at various degrees of pressure against the mouthpiece, from "just enough to keep the reed in one place" to "pratically enough pressure to crack the mouthpiece" -- not that I'm suggested either extreme be employed.
Just how much pressure--really--is optimal?
I know, I know--"it's highly performer and setup specific," would be a very credible answer.
And yet, to quote one of my favs: Tom Ridenour, the reed is a spring form: a pool diving board if you will--only one that tapers as one approaches its sides and tip. And diving boards work best when the non-business end is firmly secured. This would suggest support for tight ligatures.
Granted--the analogy is far from perfect.
And yet another (opposing?) metaphor: take a piece of plywood and attempt to saw it. Asked rhetorically, does it cut easier when the plywood is vibrating back and forth widly in reaction to the saw, of when it's held firm?
Clearly--the firmer the wood's held in place. the easier the cut--all other things equal. So this analogy seems to make the opposite argument that the business end of the reed vibrates more (assumed to be a good thing) when the other end is held down with minimal pressure.
I'd love to hear people's thoughts about "how only fools under/over tighten their ligatures" and why they think this is the case.
Or maybe the answer is "kid, the idea that there being a single "pounds/sq ft or kilograms/sq meter" amount of pressure that's optimal, is as crazy as making one universally sized bowling bowl."
Rules: nobody can quote fear of damaging the ligature or mouthpiece as a reason to torque screws to a less than ideal setting. Not that this isn't a valid argument, but I'd like to hear the SCIENCE first. Worse case, we can back off our ligature screws a bit in the interest of pragmatism later, if super torqueing our ligatures turns out to be the majority opinion.
Thanks fellow clarinet ethusiasts!
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Author: Buster
Date: 2011-06-09 17:49
You pretty much illustrated the situation yourself. Unless there is quantified Scientific proof, anything anybody tells you should be taken as "an old wives tale."
As for----"how only fools under/over tighten their ligatures". Well a fool over-tightens if they break their ligature everyday. A fool under-tightens if the reed won't stay on the mouthpiece.
As for what is considered optimal... perhaps using a design, or tightening to a degree, that is not "optimal" may create a quality that can be exploited by the user to achieve an end. A Bonade ligature according to some is less than ideal as it only contacts certain portions of the reed allowing less than perfect wave propagation. Others say it is the best because it minimally contacts the reed allowing for maximum wave propagation. (???) Other ligatures leave small indentations in the bark which some equate to a sin. It's all snake-oil and smoke and mirrors.
You already stated the answer- "kid, the idea that there being a single "pounds/sq ft or kilograms/sq meter" amount of pressure that's optimal, is as crazy as making one universally sized bowling bowl." To anybody that tells you something differently simply smile and reply Me vale madre. (I can't write that one in English)
Now go buy all the Rovners, Bonades, Kaspars, Gigliottis, Luybens, BG's, Bays, Spriggs, Scotts, Mitchell Luries, Portnoys, Lomax's, Bois, Martins, string, velcro, super glue, rubber bands and anything else I may have forgotten. Start a nice fire, throw them all in, and whichever one is left in tact when the flames die out has proven itself to be Excalibur and you are set for life. ;-)
-JH
Post Edited (2011-06-09 22:01)
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2011-06-09 18:45
Come on gang, everyone has their opinion. The Mouthpiece is the most important item for tone production after your body. Then comes the reed. What good a lousy reed with a great ligature? Then comes the ligature. With some players it makes no difference at all, with others like me, it makes a world of difference even if it's only to me internally and to my ears and feeling. They make a difference to me period. I can hear the difference with some players and none with others in a side by side comparison, it depends on several factors. ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: salzo
Date: 2011-06-09 18:53
"Clarinetist believe everything except their ears."
-Ben Armato
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Author: fernie51296
Date: 2011-06-09 19:12
i switched from metal to leather. it felt kinda better. than i saw a picture of a shoe lace being used as a ligature. i tried it and most definetly made a big difference. although my teacher thought it looked ghetto so now i use a vandoren klassic. so be sure to try string as well(: although switchin from B clarinet to A clarinet can be...bad.
Fernando
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Author: kdk
Date: 2011-06-09 20:15
ThatPerfectReed wrote:
> And yet, to quote one of my favs: Tom Ridenour, the reed is a
> spring form: a pool diving board if you will--only one that
> tapers as one approaches its sides and tip. And diving boards
> work best when the non-business end is firmly secured. This
> would suggest support for tight ligatures.
>
> Granted--the analogy is far from perfect.
>
> And yet another (opposing?) metaphor: take a piece of plywood
> and attempt to saw it. Asked rhetorically, does it cut easier
> when the plywood is vibrating back and forth widly in reaction
> to the saw, of when it's held firm?
>
I've read enough here on the board to suspect that many players would find that Tom's analogy describes the situation inaccurately. Among the selling points of any number of ligature designs is the promise that it will allow more of the reed to vibrate. The implication is that the top of the ligature is not the fulcrum, or at least that the "non-business end" of the reed is not the entire bark area, which most ligatures cover. If Tom's analogy is right, a tighter top screw (on a 2-screw ligature) makes perfect sense. If it's important that the reed be free to vibrate over more of its length, looser screws, especially the top one (on a two-screw ligature) should work better so long as the reed doesn't shift position.
Your other analogy doesn't seem applicable. The wood will cut most cleanly if it's secured as close as possible to the moving saw blade. Any bounce or chatter will make the cut more difficult.
> I know, I know--"it's highly performer and setup specific," would be a very > credible answer.
Well, mostly in the sense that the performer's expectation will determine what sound and response he's comfortable with. I think, based only on my own playing experience, that both are affected by the degree of tightness of the ligature - regardless of the ligature's brand or design - probably (I'm guessing) because the spring action Tom Ridenour talks about is physically changed by the point at which the reed is truly completely immobilized. In any case, the "ideal" or "optimal" tightness is in the ears and tactile sense of the player (to some extent guided by the ears of his/her audience, if its input is available).
Karl
Post Edited (2011-06-09 22:47)
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2011-06-09 21:40
Thanks for everyone's thoughts.
Maybe there won't be a universally correct degree of ligature pressure until were all clones of each other, playing the same instrument, mouthpiece and reed (a reed by the way which never changes its characteristics over time), the same way, and have the same taste in sound, as does our audience...a.k.a. never. : - )
Maybe this is as silly as trying to use science to explain why some people believe the Mona Lisa to be a beautiful painting, while others think it less than worthy of such praise.
And perhaps the perfect ligature and its grip is as ellusive as my namesake: ThatPerfectReed--which of course never perfectly exists--and in its closest to perfection form, never seems to stay with any 1 reed for too long.
Or maybe not.....? : - )
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Author: Paul Miller
Date: 2011-06-10 04:52
The things I look for in a ligature, in order:
- allows the reed to vibrate properly; doesn't dampen or brighten the sound too much
- allows for a full range of motion of the instrument at the embouchure
- stays on the mouthpiece if I have to switch instruments
- easy to adjust
- doesn't crush the reed or damage the mouthpiece
Ligatures seem to make a pretty significant difference in responsiveness, though probably not one that's easily heard in a hall. They are easily the least important part of the mouthpiece-reed-barrel-ligature setup, and are typically the last thing I look to change when I'm switching things around.
You'll always adjust to your ideal sound concept, your equipment just makes it easier or harder to accomplish that. Right now I'm using a Vandoren Klassic on my Bb/A (CL4 with Rue Lepic 4s), a Spriggs on my bass (refaced Fobes CF+ with V12 3.5s), and a Bonade inverted on my Eb (Backun with Vandoren Eb V12 4s).
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Author: Jimis4klar
Date: 2021-08-18 13:57
I'm going to have a Gigliotti ligature in some time, is there anything I should do first before playing? I also have a Luyben which had some instructions, is that the case with the Gigliotti?
Post Edited (2021-08-18 13:58)
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Author: super20dan
Date: 2021-08-18 15:22
for me its all about how the ligature affects reed response. inverted ones are more free blowing
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Author: super20dan
Date: 2021-08-18 15:26
i found the luyben to be better in every way to the gigilloti. wish luyben made a bass clair model.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-08-18 16:00
As an adult learner, I really agree with what clariniano said above.
For me:
cheapo metal ligature = no sound
Rovner Dark = immediate sound nearly every time
other ligatures = sometimes makes sound, sometimes not.
I have tried:
cheapo no name metal one
string,
vandoren classic (looks like string)
Silverstein T frame
A big chunky BG thing (not sure which)
One exception - My old E. J Albert clarinet came with the old style metal ligature. The ligature had been tightened so hard that it had deformed to the shape of the mouthpiece. It also had a groove in it where it had deformed round the shape of the reed. It had been put on so tight that it was also splitting right through the metal from being over-tightened. That ligature did work very reliably. I think it had been played by a professional for many years and the ligature was just bedded right in.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2021-08-18 18:27
I discovered Luyben ligatures some years ago and was very impressed with them. By far the best ligature that I've ever used. I found their website and bought a bunch of them so I'll never run out.
Tony F.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2021-08-18 19:00
Jimis4klar wrote:
> I'm going to have a Gigliotti ligature in some time, is there
> anything I should do first before playing? I also have a Luyben
> which had some instructions, is that the case with the
> Gigliotti?
I don't know if we (or maybe even I) mentioned this somewhere else in this 10 year old thread, but be sure to keep the screws of a Gigliotti ligature lightly lubed with Vaseline or something similar. When I was using these, I found the screws to have a tendency to shear off where the thread meets the thumb tab. It was for some reason a weak spot. And don't over-torque the screws.
Karl
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-08-18 19:21
Tony - does it help that the Luyben ligatures have two tightening screws instead of one as, in the Rovner? I've been wondering whether having the top screw looser than the bottom one would help the reed to vibrate more freely.
Thanks!
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-08-18 19:23
Oh gosh! I didn't notice that it was such an old thread. I really enjoyed reading it.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2021-08-18 20:01
Don't get too upset about a broken Gigliotti screws, you can use a 3/4" long socket head cap screws and appropriately sized knurled nuts to replace them. I can't recall the exact size (dia.) though. That's in my computer currently in the shop getting lubed.
And no, the Gigliotti's are a harder plastic, no "forming" going on there like the Luyben. BUT if you are using synthetic reeds, you don't need to do that with the Luyben either.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: Jimis4klar
Date: 2021-08-18 23:01
Thank you all for the advices! Yes, on Luyben is better the two screw, yes reed vibrates more freely If you tighten the upper screw less. In my opinion is a great ligature, me just found a chance and ordered the Gigliotti which I was searching for a long time to try.. Very excited to see how It plays!
Post Edited (2021-08-18 23:05)
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Author: super20dan
Date: 2021-08-19 02:43
paul is right about replacing the stripped plastic screws on a gigi. i did exactly as he said and can now use my gigi again. thank you paul
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Author: Jimis4klar
Date: 2021-08-19 10:57
Alright, but I'm sure that changes the response of the ligature, right? Doesn't have a lighter response with stock plastic screws compared with metal ones?
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2021-08-19 13:21
Hi Jennifer,
Personally I've never got on well with single-screw ligatures. I have a few, but I find that the 2-screw ligature allows more flexibility in mounting the reed. Depending on the reed/mouthpiece combination it's useful to be able to vary upper and lower screw tightness. The exception to this is my Eb clari. I took an old Bonade ligature and cut most of it away, just leaving 1 screw and a single band around the reed/mouthpiece. It's the most responsive Eb ligature I have.
Tony F.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-08-19 13:39
Hi Tony,
That's really interesting to know, thanks. I will buy a Luyben ligature and see if I can get an understanding of how to adjust the two screws differently for the right effect.
Thanks so much for giving me your thoughts on that.
Jennifer
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Author: kdk
Date: 2021-08-19 16:32
Paul Aviles wrote:
> That's in my computer currently in the shop
> getting lubed.
>
What parts of a computer need to be lubed???
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2021-08-19 18:43
The whole thing.
If that doesn't work...........I'll have to bring out the ball-peen hammer. That ALWAYS does the trick.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-08-20 10:22
Attachment: 24.jpg (363k)
Attachment: 27.jpg (594k)
Attachment: 28.jpg (185k)
I wondered if I might show you the ligature from my old E.J. Albert clarinet (made in 1919-ish)? It's the plain metal kind but it works well on this one clarinet with its original mp.
I think the clarinet was owned by a professional musician, but I imagine in the 1920s that was not such a rarified profession as it is now. I suppose at that time every small town must have had a dance hall and a small theatre, both with regular live music. My clarinet really looks as though it was used until it basically fell apart, and then was sold.
You can see from the photos of the ligature that it has been tightened so much that it split, and the plating has worn off the screws from years of use.
I polished the flat section with metal polish and it shines like silver, but I have no idea what it actually is.
I love that the clarinet saw so much use. I wonder how many dances, and dates, and engagements went on, while this clarinet provided the romantic atmosphere!
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Author: super20dan
Date: 2021-08-21 00:36
you can repair that vintage lig with a little silver solder. i successfully repaired 2 of my older bonades that had split this way. any repair tech could do this for you
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