 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: kerryklari
Date: 2021-08-09 13:15
I will start with an apology: I know this question has been asked lots of times, and I have read through quite a lot of threads that deal with it. However, some are probably a bit out of date now, and some don't quite answer my exact question, so here we go:
I have recently started playing clarinet after a break of several years, and I wasn't very advanced when I was playing, so I suppose I'm sort of "Beginner+" level. I play double lip just because I always have (I don't like the feel of the mp against my teeth). I don't want to struggle with the reed, so I want something soft and as easy as possible to blow. I also play the recorder and I don't suppose blowing the clarinet will ever be as gentle as blowing the recorder, but that's the sort of direction I'm aiming for.
I don't want to muck about with cane. I live in rural Ireland and have no access to a shop, so everything I buy has to be obtainable via mail order. Legere reeds are widely available and I find them playable, which is not the case with some synthetic reeds I have tried, and they seem pretty reliable. I have a Vandoren B46 left over from when I previously played, and an Urban Play that came with the Buffet Prodige I have recently bought. I got a Legere Classic 2.0 at the same time though I find that quite hard. I've just bought a couple of 1.75 Classics and they are ok, but it looks like Legere don't make them any more.
I have Tom Ridenour's "Educator's Guide" and he talks about MPs and actually poses the question "Why have different facing lengths and tip openings at all?" (because his different combinations of opening/length/reed all yield similar results). His answer is about tone, and I'm sure what I'm looking for will produce a different tone to some other combination. My general feeling though is that I would rather live with the tone that a comfortable setup produces than struggle with something uncomfortable in order to achieve a "better" tone.
Legere's softest reed now is their European Cut 2.0, which is probably about the same as their Classic 1.75 judging by their strength chart. Given that I don't have the option to test mouthpieces, but would have to take a punt and buy one, what would be a good MP to use with that reed (and would it also work with the Classics I have already bought)? Looking at Vandoren's website, they recommend open tips and long lengths (not one of TR's combinations) for soft reeds. I feel reluctant to just go ahead and buy something like their 5 or 7JB mouthpieces because the openings are so big I presume they are not very beginner friendly? Maybe a B40, B40 Lyre or B45 Lyre, all of which are listed as suitable for strength 2 reeds. The B45 Lyre is described as "Easy blowing" which sounds like what I'm looking for, unless they mean something different. NB it doesn't have to be a Vandoren, they are just readily available and have the comparison chart online. And I don't want to buy something just for the sake of it either: if the B46 I already have would be the best option, I'm happy to stick with it.
I started with an apology so I'll be symmetrical and end with one: sorry this is such a long-winded question! Thanks in anticipation for any advice.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2021-08-09 14:20
Well let me begin with an apology. The ONLY way to determine correct strength is to TRY the reed and mouthpiece together. It took me the better part of a year to hone in on a proper strength for the Legere European cut ...............and I was using ONE mouthpiece that I was very comfortable with to begin the journey! If you have access to Amazon, they take anything back and this is key to getting started. You need to spend at least a week with a strength to find out if it "collapses." That is, if the reed only gives you a limited amount of time in a sitting before becoming too soft to play. At that point you need to bump up to the next quarter strength, etc etc.
I'd start with a mouthpiece you know and enjoy (or have been able to play well). There are NO specific requirements of a mouthpiece for Legere reeds as far as I can tell. The mouthpiece I use was made before Legere ever thought of the European Cut (the best of the lot by the way). Then order a passel of reeds of sequential quarter strengths around what you think might work (maybe five or six). I had to do another full grouping in my initial foray into Legere. Now that I am "settled in," I can get pretty close on strength if I change up mouthpieces based on that slight difference in lay/opening, but that took years for me.
...................Paul Aviles
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Author: kerryklari
Date: 2021-08-09 16:31
Thanks for your reply. I absolutely accept your point that I need to try things out - it's taken me years to work out which recorders I most like playing. But, I have to start somewhere. Amazon unfortunately will no longer take stuff back from Ireland unless it's actually faulty. I have a number of Legere reeds in a range of strengths and I definitely prefer the softer end of the spectrum, so I think the next step is to try a MP, which I suppose might alter the way the reeds behave. I wouldn't say I had a MP I know and enjoy either. I bought the B46 because my clarinet teacher at the time recommended it (he was primarily a sax player and Vandoren say the B46 is their best MP for such players, maybe that's why he used it) but I didn't use it for long before I stopped playing clarinet.
Maybe I will just keep an eye out for Amazon warehouse deals on MPs, that way at least I wouldn't lose so much if I sell it on.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2021-08-09 16:54
Well, a decent all around Vandoren would be the M13 (my preference would be non Lyre). The B45 and B46 are particularly open. My issue with those is that even with an appropriately soft reed, the timbre and pitch are ALWAYS a bear to keep consistent. That is the opposite with closed mouthpieces that pretty much "dial in."
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2021-08-11 06:53
Here's my opinion, some might agree other may not.
I'm finding the need to have a flat table on the mouthpiece. This alone should allow for Legere reeds. These Legere reeds are sometime not flat on the bottom.
Almost all mouthpieces, with the exception of hand finished mouthpieces have a dip in the table. To this day I have not seen a flat table on any Vandoren.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2021-08-11 06:54
A few comments.
Vandoren's reed strength recommendations generally assume advanced or professional players with well-developed embouchures. For each mouthpiece, the given range suggests the strengths likely to be comfortable with that mouthpiece. Less than the minimum, probably too light; more than the maximum, probably too strong. In other words, Vandoren isn't so much recommending that, e.g., the 5JB mouthpiece is suitable for anyone who is playing a #2 reed as that the #2 strength reed may be sufficiently strong for an advanced player using the 5JB. If nothing else I say is useful here, this is: you will almost certainly not be happy with a 5JB. (I think that is also true for a B45 and likely the B40 as well.) Beginner-intermediate players with less developed embouchures will typically want to use reeds at the low end of a recommendation or even below that recommendation.
I think you might find a Fobes Debut mouthpiece more to your liking. While it is an inexpensive "student" mouthpiece, it is well designed, well made and widely used and recommended by teachers. It should last you a long time and take you a long way. It is far less resistant than any of the mouthpieces you mentioned and that's what I think you need at this time. I found mine and tried it with a Legere Euro Signature 3.25. It was a little light for me but it played very well. (But read on...)
Legere European cut Signature reeds are wider than other Legere reeds and wider than typical cane reeds. Their width is close to that of a soprano sax reed. Therefore the Legere I used extended a bit beyond the edges of my mouthpiece's table. The overlap was very slight and didn't seem to be a problem for me but I suppose it could be for some. Brad Behn recommends sanding the excess off. I would not recommend you do that at this point.
There are now mouthpieces that have been specifically designed for use with the wider Euro Signature reeds. The ones I am familiar with are the Hawkins-Backun Vocalise mouthpieces. I think they were the first. There may now be others.
At this point, I think the Vocalise mouthpieces might be a little more resistant, even with a light reed, than you want to deal with. While I expect they are somewhat less resistant than your Vandoren B46, they are still noticeably more resistant than the Fobes I have recommended.
You mentioned Tom Rideour's discussion of tip openings and facing lengths. I suspect he is referring to his mouthpieces in particular rather than mouthpieces in general. As you may be aware, all other things equal, the more open a mouthpiece is, the more resistance it will have. On the other hand, all other things equal, the longer the facing length, the less resistance a mouthpiece will have. It sounds to me like Ridenour is saying that his mouthpieces tend to play with similar resistance because, as his tips become more open, he offsetts the tendency toward increased resistance by lengthening his facings appropriately. FWIW, I find the same to be true of the Hawkins-Backun mouthpieces. These come in four models: close tip-short facing (R model), medium tip-medium facing (G Model), open tip-long facing (H model) (Hawkins' initials are R.G.H.) and (the CG model) more open tip-long facing. While the owner of a well-known music store here in the U.S. assured me that, for these mouthpieces, the more open the tip, the more resistant the mouthpiece, I actually found that the R, G and H models all played with about the same resistance (mine is admittedly a small sample but the mouthpieces are CNC machined so I would expect them to be pretty consistent. So why the three models? Tom Ridenour apparently says "different tone." He may be right. He probably is. But there is another consideration -- the amount of mouthpiece one likes to take in. I think it is widely held, and it is my personal experience, that one's embouchure should contact the mouthpiece where the reed contacts the mouthpiece's table. Thus someone who likes to take in a relatively small amount of mouthpiece is probably best served by a shorter facing length while someone who likes to take in more mouthpiece is probably better served by a medium or long facing length.
Best regards,
jnk
BTW, I no longer have access to the e-mail address that the bulletin board associates with me and I haven't yet figured out how to change it. Perhaps a monitor could help?
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2021-08-11 08:04
Hi Jack,
If you go to http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/login.html?f=0 and login with your username/password...you should see a "MY PROFILE" link near the top of the page (next to the LOGOUT link).
Click MY PROFILE. Then, in the blue bar (if your colors are default), you should see an EDIT PROFILE option. Click that, and you should be able to change your e-mail address.
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2021-08-11 17:09
Mission accomplished! Thank you, Fuzzy. (For once, doing a "this" actually led to a "that.") ![[toast]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley15.gif)
Post Edited (2021-08-11 17:16)
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Author: kerryklari
Date: 2021-08-11 20:04
JNK: thanks for the very clear explanation - you have covered a lot that I either didn't know or didn't understand before, esp about the face length. I will see if I can get hold of the Fobes Debut you mention and see how that goes.
Thanks again to everyone.
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