 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2021-08-01 23:20
Funny, assuming this embouchure doesn't so much as hurt the inside of my upper lip as--better described for me--I simply incur muscle fatigue. Using single lip I can play for long durations.
Of course--assumption of the embouchure over time in stages of practice for several minutes, followed by return to single lip embouchure and back, etc., increasing my endurance over time, is a sound approach.
But I was wondering if there would be any utility to exercising the muscles involved with double lip embouchure while doing things like sitting at the computer and typing--like now.
Maybe assuming the embouchure against an old mouthpiece while in front of the keyboard, or some other exercises might have merit...or maybe buying/using the Wind-O product.
Any ideas? In the meantime I'll just do a couple of these ; - )
https://youtu.be/NxLEkq0ikFU?t=259
Post Edited (2021-08-01 23:21)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2021-08-02 06:07
SecondTry wrote:
> Of course--assumption of the embouchure over time in stages of
> practice for several minutes, followed by return to single lip
> embouchure and back, etc., increasing my endurance over time,
> is a sound approach.
>
Probably the most reasonable approach, too.
> But I was wondering if there would be any utility to exercising
> the muscles involved with double lip embouchure while doing
> things like sitting at the computer and typing--like now.
>
My knee-jerk reaction is that this would be more trouble than it would be worth. But maybe if double lip changes the way you use your mouth and lip muscles in single lip in a substantial way (it doesn't for me), the answer might be different.
Karl
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-08-03 16:51
Hi SecondTry,
I'm planning to start doing that myself to work up muscle strength.
I have a friend who plays French horn and she told me that when she was away from her instrument (in hospital) she took her mouthpiece and practised her embouchure to keep the muscles strong. She said it was really essential to keep her technique solid for when she came back.
My son is teaching me a little bit of French horn playing and the muscle action that I have to do for a French horn embouchure is exactly the same as the one I have to do for a clarinet double lip embouchure, except that the diameter of the O is much smaller with the horn.
Also the really big take-home message that I got from Kalmen Opperman's book was that we should spend only 50% of our practice time actually playing and it seems to me that working on muscle strength in the way you suggest is a great kind of non-playing practice.
I'm just finishing off having covid here, but once I'm recovered I will start doing what you suggest and report back about whether it helps.
Jen
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-08-03 18:13
Attachment: small.JPG (33k)
Attachment: Untitled Recording 195.mp3 (145k)
Hi SecondTry,
I've been working on a scheme to do exactly the thing that you suggest, and I wondered if you would like to see?
I wanted to come up with a way to practise my embouchure while mooching on the internet. I don't want to just honk the clarinet endlessly, as it's expensive and I might damage it, if I'm picking it up and laying it down a lot.
I thought that if I just played my mp on its own, then that could be quite annoying for others in the house as it would be very high pitched.
So I bought an extension pipe to attach to the mp, so that the sound will be deeper. I have attached a photo of the mp with extension, and a recording of the sound it makes.
I just tried playing it and in my currently covid-ridden state it makes me quite light-headed, so I think that is a sign that it giving the right kind of challenge to my breathing. The embouchure is the same so that is definitely benefitting too.
The main downside is that it's actually quite loud. I think I may need to make a silencer to go on the end. I figure that must be doable though.
Jen
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2021-08-03 18:20
Thanks for sharing your idea Jen. I hope you are on the mend from Covid.
Funny, as I type I have a mouthpiece/ligature/reed combination in my mout, held by a double lip embouchure!
I'm not so much interested in making sound, just exercising the muscles involved in gripping the mouthpiece.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-08-03 18:30
SecondTry - That's probably for the best that you are happy to do it quietly. I sound like a cheerful foghorn here.
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2021-08-05 19:45
SunnyDaze wrote:
>
> Also the really big take-home message that I got from Kalmen
> Opperman's book
....what book?
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-08-05 23:16
This is the book here:
Kalmen Opperman: A Legacy of Excellence Paperback – January 11, 2018
by Denise Gainey (Author)
https://www.amazon.com/Kalmen-Opperman-Excellence-Denise-Gainey/dp/B078Y7WQK8
It's about Kalmen Opperman, rather than by him, but it explains a huge amount about how he approached practising the instrument and I found it extremely helpful. This biggest thing that I noticed was that he said that only half of our practise time should be actual playing. I've taken that into my habits now and enjoy spending a lot of time doing things that I know will benefit my clarinet playing, but that are not just me drilling through pieces.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2021-08-06 01:59
Hi Jennifer,
Having listened to the sample of your playing that you posted and then took down, I’d say that you should spend a large proportion of your time playing tuneful music tunefully, as judged by you.
I know that it’s well-worn advice, but singing the tune before you play it is good.
Tony
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2021-08-06 23:48
SunnyDaze wrote:
> This is the book here:
>
> Kalmen Opperman: A Legacy of Excellence Paperback – January
> 11, 2018
> by Denise Gainey (Author)
>
> https://www.amazon.com/Kalmen-Opperman-Excellence-Denise-Gainey/dp/B078Y7WQK8
>
> It's about Kalmen Opperman, rather than by him, but it explains
> a huge amount about how he approached practising the instrument
> and I found it extremely helpful. This biggest thing that I
> noticed was that he said that only half of our practise time
> should be actual playing. I've taken that into my habits now
> and enjoy spending a lot of time doing things that I know will
> benefit my clarinet playing, but that are not just me drilling
> through pieces.
Thanks. I just bought the book. But that said, what things did Opperman suggest we do with practice time other than play?
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-08-09 20:46
Hi SecondTry,
The point I understood from it was that clarinet playing is a sort of way of life rather than just a single skill that one uses in isolation.
Thinking about it that way, I've started thinking this kind of thing:
- My fingers are too tense, so I am trying to find way to make my whole life more relaxed, ther than just focusing on my fingers, which might make the problem worse.
- My physical stamina is insufficient for the pieces that I want to play, so I've started working on aerobic exercise to try to improve my breathing and physical strength.
I think in the book he was also talking about working on reeds and perhaps studying music and all sorts of other things.
I really like the idea that so many different activities can be part of practise time. It really takes the pressure off that little bit of time when I'm bashing through pieces.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-08-09 20:47
Tony - That's rather a pointy comment. I'm just going to let that one bounce right off thanks.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2021-08-09 21:59
The thing is, you need someone to be musically truthful to you.
This is a very poor community for you to improve your playing. You get sidetracked into irrelevancies like double-lip embouchures.
I had hoped you would take my comment gracefully, but it seems not.
Of course, if you simply want to post plausibly here, then you can write anything – including your judgements of the qualities of top-range clarinets.
Tony
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2021-08-09 22:03
SunnyDaze,
I didn't see the clip Tony referred to. Having said that, I didn't interpret Tony's comment to be pointy...I saw it as very friendly and sincere. I think it is great advice for many of us across many levels of proficiency.
Regardless of what type of music a person is interested in, there is great value in practicing, "tuneful music tunefully" as judged by our own ear. Perhaps it would be useful to contemplate what might be gained from following this advice - prior to attempting it, and then compare your expectations with the results.
Singing the tune can help with so many things...phrasing, musicality, etc.
I think Tony's advice is great! Please give it a try and see if it helps.
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-08-09 22:40
Tony - Possibly I've misunderstood your comment.
I understood you to be saying that I should stop getting above myself and try to just produce anything resembling a decent tune at all, which I thought quite strange, as the video was not intended to be musical.
Is that what you meant? Maybe if you could clarify, we could start again.
If you know me from my previous posts you will know that I am friendly and hard working, and I spend a ton of time playing "tuneful music tunefully". I am well on the way through Grade 4 as an adult learner. I also play violin and piano, and used to sing in big choirs, with productions like Handel's Messiah, so I'm really okay with carrying a tune.
In case context helps, I'm an adult learner, age 46, now trying to come back to playing after an 8 month gap with long covid lung damage. In my post-covid state, my embouchure hurts a lot, and the video was of me messing around with different embouchures to try to find one that doesn't hurt. It was a deeply unmusical video, and I hoped you would realise that it was not my usual style, but maybe you didn't.
In the weeks since I posted it, I've switched to double lip and I'm very happy like that. I now find it very odd feeling if I switch back. The change means going right back to the beginning with my technique, but I'm actually really enjoying that.
I'm working through Learn as you Play by Peter Wastall, and finding it lovely and relaxing to start right from scratch again.
I've also started emailing videos of my technique to my teacher between lessons, instead of asking on this forum, and I think that is really working well. I pay for email lessons as well as zoom lessons now, which is very 2021!
Does that help clarify a bit?
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-08-09 23:11
In case you would like to see my latest efforts, this is me playing on the 7th July, on a video that I made for my teacher:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_J-H_jc2c4&t=61s
It's just sedate, careful scales, working on my embouchure, and trying not to move my fingers too much.
There are no videos after that as I promptly came down with covid again at that point and haven't recovered yet. It's been a busy year.
I'll take the video down in a few days, as it's private and not really for going permenantly online.
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Author: Ken Lagace
Date: 2021-08-09 23:34
Brava - nice playing.
When you make the connections between registers, they are very good, very connected. But you sometimes breathe there out of convenience.
It might be good practice to never breathe at register breaks unless it is written that way.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2021-08-09 23:35
Two main points emerge in this thread: 1) What can you practice when you are not actually blowing the clarinet, and 2) What will help you develop an embouchure (single or double lip). Tony's answer speaks helpfully to both considerations. When you are not blowing the clarinet you can practice by singing melodies and other musical passages that you might want to play. While singing you can also finger the notes in the passage without having a clarinet in hand. Jose Ballester says he does this when he is on a plane enroute to one of the many cities where he concertizes. He "sings" the passages silently to himself and fingers them along with the sheet music (or from memory if he has memorized the piece). This is also done, of course, to strict rhythm. Traditionally, musicians have been trained in this art of Solfege, which can be developed to a point where the musician can sing even quick violin passages fairly accurately. If you can sing the parts even to something as intricate as Martino's A Set for Clarinet or the Nielsen Concerto, it becomes easier to learn to play it on the clarinet. Why? Because you have placed the musical elements of pitch and rhythm in your memory--and if you have fingered the passage as well, silently--you have recruited your body to reproduce the music. By contrast, blowing one note on the clarinet is light years and universes away from the music. You might as well stand on your head or carve scrimshaw on seashells.
The same principle applies to development of the embouchure. You have to go from one note to another--bridge the interval gap between notes--to train the embouchure. Playing melodies rather than long single tones, will make your embouchure sensitive and supple. On a single tone the developing embouchure has little to do; it finds its true métier when confronted with the linear curves of a melody and the demands placed upon it in shifting from one register to another. A great embouchure will not come from playing "Poor Johnny One Note" forever. Try "Somewhere Over the Rainbow" or "On A Clear Day You Can See Forever" instead. And eventually the solos from the Pines of Rome. When practicing, stay close to the music. Coping with the multiple demands of the music will build all your clarinet playing skills.
To hear Solfege singing in action, listen to Michel Arrignon singing some of the passages in the Rabaud piece here, as his student plays:
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=michel+arrignon+masterclass+rabaud.
Post Edited (2021-08-10 00:52)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2021-08-10 01:15
I play Santana tunes frequently ... Samba Pa Ti has long, languid phrases that take time to develop to sound right - difficult to do well on guitar, just as difficult on clarinet. Yes, I do it by ear because for me it makes sense that way, for you, maybe it's different. But it's tuneful, melodic, I can record it, I can sing it, and make it mine.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-08-10 12:41
Ken - Thanks so much for your kind encouragement. I really feel like I should be asking whether you offer private lessons over email or zoom, as I value your advice so much. I feel as though every time you comment on one of my threads, my understanding of correct technique improves in leaps and bounds. Thank you for taking the time to comment again.
Seabreeze - thanks for taking the time to write all that out. On your first paragraph - I do agree, but isn't that kind of assumed knowledge? I mean I spend so much time singing the tunes both out loud and in my mind, and practising the fingering in my mind. I always just assume that that is going to be a huge part of the committment, and the pleasure of learning a piece of music. I hear your point, but I'm just not sure how anyone could imagine that a person would be learning an instrument and not already doing that.
I also agree with your point on intervals, but tunes is not where I'm going right now. Intervals, yes, but not tunes. I just don't seem to have the headspace for tunes right now, and am finding huge relaxation and enjoyment in playing slow simple studies to work on foundation skills. I think it may be a lot to do with the rigours of this last covid year, but I feel like I want my clarinet playing to be more about meditation and much much less about frantically trying to play whatever super-fast difficult passage will earn me the next certificate.
I really enjoyed the section of the Battipaglia dissertation entitled "Pedagogical and Performance Methods used by McLane". McLane also really seems to enjoy getting down to brass tacks, and thinking deeply about the tone and the perfect legato intervals. My teacher is really focused on getting my legato intervals great too, and it's a huge priority for me to get that right. I love the technques that McLane uses. I think I could really enjoy just spending hours on these tiny details like he does.
Thank you very much for keeping posting and giving me your thoughts.
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Author: BethGraham
Date: 2021-08-10 17:08
For what it's worth, Jen, I didn't find Tony's remarks to you snarky, and I almost always think he's being aggressive in these threads. (Sorry, Tony; "we learn so much")
How I read his advice was that we should aim for musicality in everything we play -- even in a simple etude or a scale. Look for phrasing, line, taper -- all that good stuff. That advice was so good and so simple and resonated with me so much, that I decided to highlight it in a new thread.
On another note, don't forget that Peter Cigleris also made an offer to you of lessons not long ago. There are many folks here cheering you on.
I really admire your grit, Jen. I suspect that if I'd had such a time of it with long Covid, I'd be mostly curled up in the fetal position under a rock. ♥️
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-08-10 17:34
Thanks Beth, that's really kind of you to offer another perspective.
I don't think it's a big deal, to be honest. Tony thinks tunefulness is good, I agree. I think we're basically fine.
I like your idea of getting under a rock, I must admit. Possibly playing long tones under a rock for a while would be nice.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2021-08-10 22:45
Ancient Proclamation:
Hear ye; Hear ye. We doe proclaim that longeth tones are so annoying that only dumb and deaf rocks of the earth can bear them. Think of air-raid sirens, ambulances, police cars, dentists' drills, automobile- fire truck- and burglar alarms, screech owls and ghoulish night howling. The human response to these horrors is "when will they ever end?" The human race loves dance and song at any point on the globe from Patagonia to Gnome and shies away from the death ray monotony of long tones. The human race howls and moans in long tones at funerals. After the funeral, they dance, sing, and play in changing pitches and pulsations. Play rhythms and songs and leave the long tones to the tormentors of humanity. Yes, I know in Indian raga music a drone is often set to sound, but the musicians make music over it with rhythm, dance, and song. To be human is to change pitch and rhythm. Gregorian and Mozarabic chant consist of tunes, intervals, and rhythm-changing notes. Our remote ancestors heard the wind blowing one note in the reeds. They broke off or cut the reed pipe, and discovered, after making holes in it, that lo and behold, they could play more than one note! To play long tones is to pretend to be a single reed rush or, at best, to walk on all fours. To play tunes is to rise up on two feet and accept the wonderful varied musical language of humanity.
End of Proclamation.
Codicil to Proclamation:
The clarinetists with the best chops play melodies. Ralph McLane used to play simple tunes--not long tones-or isolated interval studies-when he was trying out clarinets. Listen to Buddy DeFranco elaborate on the great standard tune Autumn Leaves (written transcription provided). He got his chops (embouchure) by moving around the clarinet--by connecting notes and making rhythms--all embedded in the tunes--not by blowing out a single tone at a time . https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=trascription+buddy+defranco+autum+leaves Tunes are the thing.
Post Edited (2021-08-11 03:24)
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