 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: BethGraham
Date: 2021-08-06 18:59
In the recent double lip embouchure thread, Tony Pay posted a piece of simple advice that I thought was so good that it deserved a new thread for it.
Please post your best tidbits for us newer players here. And, please: keep it simple.
Post Edited (2021-08-06 19:04)
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Author: BethGraham
Date: 2021-08-06 19:00
From Tony Pay:
"... spend a large proportion of your time playing tuneful music tunefully, as judged by you.
I know that it’s well-worn advice, but singing the tune before you play it is good."
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Author: BethGraham
Date: 2021-08-06 19:04
When I start to learn new scales, my teacher has me practice by saying the names of the notes out loud as I finger them.
It seems a bit "elementary, my dear Watson," but I'm finding that this exercise really helps me make the connection between fingerings and individual notes (especially accidentals).
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2021-08-06 21:07
Why you practice slow:
Practicing slow is not so that you can "speed up gradually". It works because that's how your brain and body learn.
- Matthew Simington
Post Edited (2021-08-06 22:54)
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2021-08-07 01:54
You'll get a lot of good advice here. I'll throw out first the obvious--
Find a good mouthpiece and reed brand & strength that fits with it, so it is "easy to blow".
I have an odd philosophy for when practicing something new--
1. right notes
2. right rhythms
(1 & 2 can usually go together)
3. play it musically. dynamics, phrasing, even if it's just an exercise.
--3 makes no sense with out 1 & 2.
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
Post Edited (2021-08-07 01:55)
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2021-08-07 06:19
When practicing, never play faster than you can do so accurately.
We master things (correctly or incorrectly) through repetition.
All that taking something too fast for accuracy does is reinforce in us how to play it wrong. Then, we'll have to first unlearn the wrong way and learn the right way.
Sure, increase the metronome gradually and expect to make mistakes, but if you can't play it at 80 bps you shouldn't try it at 90 bps.
I once met someone who could play something accurately at only one fast pace.
That is not an example of mastering it, which involves the ability to take it at not only that speed accurately, but all slower ones too without flaws.
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Author: brycon
Date: 2021-08-07 07:55
Quote:
I have an odd philosophy for when practicing something new--
1. right notes
2. right rhythms
(1 & 2 can usually go together)
3. play it musically. dynamics, phrasing, even if it's just an exercise.
--3 makes no sense with out 1 & 2.
I really think this advice should be avoided.
When most people crescendo, for example, their pitch goes flat and their tempo increases. When they "play it musically," then, the notes and the rhythms, which they spent time getting correct, change and need to be re-practiced, now with the crescendo incorporated. To me, at least, this method seems like a waste of time.
Rather than splitting up technique and expression, perhaps a better piece of advice would be to view these things as two sides of the same coin.
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2021-08-07 08:38
brycon, Well, as I said, it is an odd philosophy.
I will disagree about MOST people going flatter and speeding up while doing a crescendo. I may be talking about accomplished players where this doesn't happen.
This is why I emphasize right notes and rhythms before adding the ideas one has for musical expression.
Technique and expression are two different things. You must be able to play a piece technically correct before adding the musicality-- thus why I call my idea oddball. If you view them as two sides of the same coin, then every player, from beginner on up, when learning something new, will be trying to do too much at once.
For example, if your technical ability is good enough that you could sight read a Weber Concerto, then you can start with musical interpretations right away. If you're not up to sight reading something like the Nielesn, you'd better get the technique down solid first.
I know quite a few will disagree on my points. I have seen it with beginning band directors, where their bands have played stuff with good musical phrasing, yet there were missed notes and rhythmic problems. I took my approach as a beginning band director.
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
Post Edited (2021-08-07 08:40)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2021-08-07 16:57
There was a video pointed to some years ago of a violinist demonstrating how to practice "fast." He said that swift technique such as the Tchaikovsky concerto needs to be practiced swiftly to accomplish the necessary coordination.
How he did it was to take just two notes of a fast grouping at a time. You play the first one somewhat like a 32nd note grace (or even shorter.....just a chip) into the second played as a long note. Then take the second note of that long group into the third note. Of course play that second note as a "chip" into the third.......etc. etc. You can also do that as a group of three with the first two being super fast grace notes.
This way, you're practicing "fast" but doing it "slowly" with accuracy.
If anyone can repost this video I would be most grateful.
.......................Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2021-08-07 17:59
I think I've seen the video you ask about or one very much like it, but I don't know who the performer was. This approach seems similar to one in which you start with the last two or three notes of a difficult passage, practice them to get them clean at tempo or *slightly* slower, then when they're clean, add more of the notes going back from the ones already learned, eventually reaching the beginning of the passage. I'm sure this has a shorthand name of some kind - maybe retrograde something-or-other.
Karl
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2021-08-07 19:21
Matt74 wrote:
> Why you practice slow:
>
> Practicing slow is not so that you can "speed up gradually".
> It works because that's how your brain and body learn.
>
>
> Post Edited (2021-08-06 22:54)
Matt: I don't want to be one of those pedantic jerks who comes along and nit picks at someone's advise that I don't disagree with--if not whole heartedly agree with either.
Sure: practicing slow is, as you say, the best way for our minds to commit the pattern to longer term memory: no argument.
But very often it is also, albeit as a secondary goal, so that we can, over time, take a passage faster, and at proper tempo, that was too much for us to deal with at performance speed on day 1. So in essence, practicing slow IS so that we can speed up gradually--with no loss in accuracy.
I'm by no means wishing to put words in your mouth: I doubt you even meant this, but I remember someone on the board who use to say "always practice slow."
This is stupid. It's not even a matter of opinion.
Yes: always practice at a speed at which you can take the music accurately, but always practice slow? So what, performance can be the first time at which you take it to tempo?
And of course there's merit sometimes in taking a phrase faster than at tempo so performance will seem easier.
Personally, I'm an advocate for being able to play a phrase accurately at various speeds which circle around performance tempo. It not only improves accuracy, but sometimes conductors do nutty things.
Post Edited (2021-08-07 19:22)
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Author: brycon
Date: 2021-08-07 19:59
Quote:
I will disagree about MOST people going flatter and speeding up while doing a crescendo. I may be talking about accomplished players where this doesn't happen.
It isn't a matter of accomplished or unaccomplished players: pushing more air through a clarinet makes the pitch go flat (the only instruments on which I haven't noticed this tendency is on some particular notes on historical clarinets).
The reason that accomplished players--whatever that means--can maintain their pitch as they crescendo is because they've practiced synchronizing minute movements in their support system, embouchure, tongue, oral cavity, etc. to counteract the clarinet's tendency. Moreover, at a very high level, these movements occur on an unconscious level.
But this point is exactly the one I'm trying to make. An expressive element of the music, such as a crescendo, isn't something added on top, such as some basil on a pizza. Rather, it has a physicality that must be precise, coordinated, and thoroughly practiced--baked in to the practicing--much like the fingers or the tongue.
Quote:
If you view them as two sides of the same coin, then every player, from beginner on up, when learning something new, will be trying to do too much at once.
The distinction is an analytical one: it's in your mind. As I said, performing an expressive nuance requires precise physical coordination, the sort that needs to be practiced in order to feel comfortable and confident. Moreover, to perform "technique," we must think expressively. "Grabbing onto" certain notes in a technical passage creates a sense of musical line but also grounds the finger technique, thinking about the direction of the air in an articulated passage relaxes the tongue, and so on.
So often, students fixate on getting things "correct" ("Tongue should hit exactly here, fingers should stay exactly this close to the keys, etc."). If, however, you can redirect this mental energy to expression, to thinking about musical shapes, colors, and so on, they often get out of their own way and unconsciously fix technical issues.
Quote:
For example, if your technical ability is good enough that you could sight read a Weber Concerto, then you can start with musical interpretations right away. If you're not up to sight reading something like the Nielesn, you'd better get the technique down solid first.
I'm sorry, but this is just lazy thinking. Alternatively, you can do everything but play less music (perhaps a bar or even a beat at a time), play a slower tempo, play different rhythmic variations, and so on. There are countless practice techniques that don't involve purposefully leaving out a fundamental component of music making until near the end of the process. Moreover, when you think about it, we never achieve technical perfection: we could always play more in tune, smoother legato connections, etc. At what arbitrary point, then, do you begin thinking about expression?
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2021-08-07 21:42
brycon, Sorry, I just can figure out how to quote something yet on this forum....
Re the cresc. & flattness---So we seem to agree that accomplished players don't go flat when they get louder, correct? You have pointed out the mechanics of why, which I admit I've never given thought to.
Re Technique & musicality 2 sides of a coin---
I don't think we're that far apart here either. Yes, you grab onto certain notes (or patterns) to assist in getting the technical passages down. I also can see what you mean about expression getting new students "out of their own way" with fingerings, even perhaps tonguing (though I think tonguing,no matter what method you use, pretty much is what it is-- you tongue the note or you don't).
I'm not sure thinking about what you want to accomplish with the entire piece (or section) regarding phrasing, dynamics and overall form of the piece is a good idea when you are first woodshedding the notes. Maybe you should do that in pieces/sections as you learn the piece.
Re Approaching Weber vs. Nielsen--
Sure, there are many ways to woodshed a piece. Bar by bar if you like. I did that with many of the etudes in my book when first starting to practice them. I am at the point now where I have to do my best to play them as musically as possible, so as to avoid boredom.
We agree on something else here-- You can never really achieve technical perfection (though you wouldn't know it listening to the hundreds of thousands of fantastic clarinetists nowadays, some of them older than 15 years old....
When do you add the expression vs. just getting the technique down first? I don't know. I think it varies with each player and maybe with each piece to be attempted.
As I first said, my philosophy is an odd one in that I tend to think about technique first. I stand by that playing something very musically but with technical mistakes, unwanted variations in tempo, etc. just doesn't cut it for me. When I was an undergrad, one prof. (knowing I was a clarinet major) asked me which I preferred after he played 2 versions of I think a Brahms Sonata. I chose the one with perfect rhythm and what I considered the ideal tone, but was not very expressive. I'm sure I threw a bone in his plans, as he figured I'd choose the guy with lots of varied dynamics and musicality.
In fact, I WOULD rather listen to that second guy if I had to pick one for my car stereo. But he should have perfected his tone (which I consider a basic part of technique) first.
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
Post Edited (2021-08-07 21:50)
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2021-08-08 00:38
Tom H wrote:
> brycon, Sorry, I just can figure out how to quote something yet
> on this forum....
Hi Tom:
In order for me quote a post that isn't the most recent I choose the "Threaded View" choice that appears below the last post (of course provided that I'm in "Flat View" or else if I'm in "Threaded View" it will say "Flat View.")
In "Threaded View," from the resulting "Topics" window, you can pick/click the post you want to quote and it will appear as the last one in thread, such that when you press the Quote key at the bottom of the forum screen, that post you picked will be the one you quote.
This is precisely what I did to quote your not last post
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2021-08-08 03:07
SecondTry wrote:
> Tom H wrote:
>
> > brycon, Sorry, I just can figure out how to quote something
> yet
> > on this forum....
>
> Hi Tom:
>
> In order for me quote a post that isn't the most recent I
> choose the "Threaded View" choice that appears below the last
> post (of course provided that I'm in "Flat View" or else if I'm
> in "Threaded View" it will say "Flat View.")
>
> In "Threaded View," from the resulting "Topics" window, you can
> pick/click the post you want to quote and it will appear as the
> last one in thread, such that when you press the Quote key at
> the bottom of the forum screen, that post you picked will be
> the one you quote.
>
> This is precisely what I did to quote your not last post
WHOA IT WORKS. And I wrote down what you advised (as I always do, being not a computer guy). It's a bit easier on other forums where you just click quote under whatever post you want to reply to, but now I know!
But, you forgot to tell me that I have to click "flat view" to get back to reading all posts. I did figure that out myself (amazingly). Don't you know that I'm a computer idiot?
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
Post Edited (2021-08-08 03:13)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2021-08-08 07:18
Tom H wrote:
> It's a bit easier on other
> forums where you just click quote under whatever post you want
> to reply to, but now I know!
Tom, that's all you need to do here, except you have to open a reply first. Whether you're in flat or threaded view, click <Reply To Message> in the post you want to answer and then, in the reply pane, click <Quote>. The entire message you're replying to is recreated in your reply window. Delete all but the part that you want to react to and then type your comment under the quote.
Karl
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2021-08-08 10:33
Brycon,
I knew somebody would say that. LOL
When I was a kid I was always thought I was being told "you have to start slow and then speed it up gradually". This seemed to me to be a waste of time. I felt like they were holding me back. Why not just go for it? It also seemed to me to be unmusical to play things too slow.
If someone had simply told me WHY you play slow, I could have saved hundreds, or thousands of hours of pointless "practicing", not to mention years of frustration and futility.
Part of the problem is that it's very good for speeding things up, and for that reason it's real purpose gets confused with speed.
You can use it to play faster, and we all do, but that's not the point. It really has nothing whatsoever to do with playing faster. It has to do with how people learn. The important part is that you can only learn as fast as your brain and body can learn. You can become more efficient in practice over time, and get better at learning, but at any given moment you can only learn as fast as you can learn. That's true mentally and physically.
How slow is complicated. You need to start slow enough to reveal your mistakes, but not so slow that it become impossible. It only needs to be slow enough. If you play it REALLY slow it gets too hard and becomes counterproductive. It's like jumping. You can't practice jumping real slow. That's not how your body works. Very slow muscle coordination is different from quick muscle coordination. They're different skills. A reasonable tempo is sometimes better. Sometimes it's better to be a tiny bit sloppy at first and work it out. However, if you keep messing up on the same thing, or are all over the place, you know you need to slow down. ... Eventually, you do have to practice largo legato playing - music is beautiful but cruel. I wanted to keep it simple and memorable for beginners, so I didn't explain all that.
- Matthew Simington
Post Edited (2021-08-08 10:48)
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Author: BethGraham
Date: 2021-08-08 18:40
Matt74 wrote:
> ... music is beautiful but cruel. I wanted to keep it simple and
> memorable for beginners ...
Ain't that the truth. Thank you for keeping it simple.
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2021-08-08 18:53
kdk wrote:
> Tom H wrote:
>
> > It's a bit easier on other
> > forums where you just click quote under whatever post you
> want
> > to reply to, but now I know!
>
> Tom, that's all you need to do here, except you have to open a
> reply first. Whether you're in flat or threaded view, click
> <Reply To Message> in the post you want to answer and then, in
> the reply pane, click <Quote>. The entire message you're
> replying to is recreated in your reply window. Delete all but
> the part that you want to react to and then type your comment
> under the quote.
>
> Karl
Karl:
When I follow the above guidance I still, when pressing the Quote button (I happen to be in Flat View,) have my posting window populated with the last poster's content, not necessarily the content of the poster I wish to quote--which may not be the most recent poster.
Perhaps I am doing something wrong.
(I quoted you here following my guidance to Tom H).
And yes Tom H., I'm sorry I wasn't explicit, Threaded and Flat View appear to be toggles in the forum. My experience here tells me that users seem to be always in exactly one of the two, and clicking the choice brings you from one mode to another.
Post Edited (2021-08-08 18:54)
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2021-08-08 19:11
Matt74 wrote:
> If someone had simply told me WHY you play slow, I could have
> saved hundreds, or thousands of hours of pointless
> "practicing", not to mention years of frustration and
> futility.
>
> Part of the problem is that it's very good for speeding things
> up, and for that reason it's real purpose gets confused with
> speed.
>
> You can use it to play faster, and we all do, but that's not
> the point. It really has nothing whatsoever to do with playing
> faster. It has to do with how people learn.
Agreed, and I think the best way most people learn, but not in exclusion to other methods like, say, breaking down a passage into small groups of notes, playing those small chunks without errors at or near tempo, and then grouping those chunks over time.
Taking an entire passage at a slower speed at which you can handle the most difficult aspects has its limitations. It's inefficient. It might be better to use a combination of speed and breaking down difficult sections into chunks. And in practice, to loosely quote Kal Opperman, time is your most limiting asset.
The point I'm trying to make, all while not being pedantic for the sake of nit picking is that our brains, and their abilities to process, at least for most of us, are a bit like a tank of water. For it to not overfill the spigot must flow at slow speed or short duration (at higher flow rates.)
> How slow is complicated.
I don't even believe, per se, in the ideal of taking some music "slow." I believe in taking it no faster than it can be played accurately. Often, that speed turns out to be "slow," recognizing of course that "slow" is a subjective term.
You need to start slow enough to
> reveal your mistakes, but not so slow that it become
> impossible. It only needs to be slow enough. If you play it
> REALLY slow it gets too hard and becomes counterproductive.
> It's like jumping.
Some of the above I take issue with. First, taking something too slow---while I'm not sure is impossible or best categorized using a physics metaphor where certain minimal speeds are necessary given constraints like gravity--I think is better described as just not productive. Again--this is why I choose to describe effective practice in terms of accuracy more than speed.
I remember a cello lesson I sat in on when my daughter was young. The kind instructor said to her, "well you have to learn to walk first before you can run, right?"
Perhaps we both agree that such a simple metaphor best be introduced to players early in their training.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2021-08-08 22:11
SecondTry wrote:
> Karl:
>
> When I follow the above guidance I still, when pressing the
> Quote button (I happen to be in Flat View,) have my posting
> window populated with the last poster's content, not
> necessarily the content of the poster I wish to quote--which
> may not be the most recent poster.
>
You're right, in flat view. When I tried it, I must have inadvertently picked the last post. I didn't intend to.
But, I've rechecked, and in threaded view, if you reply (using <Reply To Message> under the message window, clicking <Quote> will bring the entire post you're replying to into the window no matter where in the thread it appears.
> (I quoted you here following my guidance to Tom H).
>
> And yes Tom H., I'm sorry I wasn't explicit, Threaded and Flat
> View appear to be toggles in the forum. My experience here
> tells me that users seem to be always in exactly one of the
> two, and clicking the choice brings you from one mode to
> another.
I confess, I almost never use flat view, so when I do, it's always a little bit experimental.
I confess, I almost never use flat view, so when I do, it's always a little bit experimental.
Thanks for the correction.
Karl
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2021-08-08 23:55
edit
- Matthew Simington
Post Edited (2021-08-09 00:37)
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Author: Erez Katz
Date: 2021-08-10 18:50
https://youtu.be/89ZtpOWEt4s
(Paul mentioned earlier)
Start slow and work your way up with a metronome is a classic advice. However it has the potential for "cementing" slow movement habit that works well for slow slurs but at some point you can hit a wall.
Everyone is different, so just because I hit a wall doesn't mean another person would, but the advice here helped me a lot:
Another advice that I found helpful is to learn a difficult passage "backwards" as explained here:
https://youtu.be/gRurybDcDqk
Post Edited (2021-08-10 18:52)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2021-08-10 21:54
Dear Erez Katz,
Thank you SOOOOOOO very much for posting the "fast practice" video. This was revelatory for me when I first saw it and I'm certain it will be beneficial to many on the Board.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-08-11 00:20
The violin video is great Paul. Thanks for mentioning it and to Erez for posting it.
I'm sorry to say it, but the biggest game changer for me has been spending a truckload of money on a good clarinet. I struggled for such a long time with an heirloom instrument that really didn't work. Realising how much my clarinet playing hobby means to me, and spending actual money on it has helped a great deal.
Finding an absolutely first rate technician is also really important I think. I'm also fortunate to have a really good woodwind shop that is cycling distance from my house and it makes the whole world of a difference to be able to just run over to them and ask for advice, try mouthpieces, and ligatures and whathaveyou.
Also finding a teacher that works with me in my own way has been wonderful. I learn so much from him and he never minds working in the way that I need to work, to get to where I need to go.
Sheet music software like Dorico and Sibelius are helping me a huge amount, as I can mess with the music to dissect and understand it.
Lastly, I think the internet is just such a wonderful resource. It's breathtaking the things that we can learn through it, compared to the 80s when there was just a choice of one or two books on any given instrument in the local bookshop.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2021-08-11 06:38
I've played double lip all of my life. I started because the vibration of the mouthpiece hurt the upper teeth due to braces. I covered the upper teeth with the upper lip! I really didn't know what I was doing. No guidance from my teacher. I'm out of shape now because of a cancer scare and covid. Now I'm recovering from back surgery. No reason to practice right now, my point is I was able to play many hours a day with minor pain. No, you won't play flat. Start slow. 1 or 2 minutes a day using double lip, add maybe 30 seconds a week.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-08-11 09:37
Welcome back Bob! I hope your recovery is going well. It's great to see you again.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-08-11 13:18
I've just bought one of these and it is great. Definitely works, and very helpful. Again, throwing money at a problem, but my goodness it makes life easier.
https://www.classicalfingers.com/
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Author: BethGraham
Date: 2021-08-11 17:09
Where did you hear about this, Jen? I think I saw a Clarinet Mentors video a long time ago that discussed this or a similar contraption.
I'm currently working on taming my flying fingers to improve my efficiency and accuracy -- my teacher has been giving me some exercises to isolate some specific problem spots. (I've just sent her an email to ask her if she thinks Clarinet Fingers would be a good tool for me.)
Thanks for sharing this.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-08-11 20:28
Hi Beth,
It was mentioned on a recent thread on here.
I do think it's quite good. I mean I could work hard and use discipline, dedication, and practise to get my fingers to stay still. But having a piece of plastic do the work for me is a much easier option. <and relax>
Also it looks quite nice. LOL!
Jen
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-08-11 20:33
BTW, I've been playing for 3 years, and the number of important tips for newcomers that I've worked through would be enough to fill several broadsheet newspapers from cover to cover. I think the clarinet is definitely an instrument to learn with plenty of help, and good help at that.
I learned to play the violin largely by watching videos as a teenager, but the clarinet really really wants good guidance and plenty of it. Crikey, yes it does.
If nothing else, I think it's a really good idea to read up on temperomandibular disorder, a very long time before you get anywhere near to developing it. It sounds really well worth avoiding.
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Author: BethGraham
Date: 2021-08-12 00:30
Yeah, TMJ is no joke. I was diagnosed with it and arthritis in my jaw as a teenager. For me, it's been pretty manageable, but I do have to be careful. Fortunately, clarinet playing doesn't seem to trouble it.
I'm seriously considering Classical Fingers, but will hold off on getting it for a while.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-08-12 09:34
Hi Beth,
That's astonishing to have that happen as a teenager. I'm really glad it's not troubling you now.
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