 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ruben
Date: 2021-07-23 15:38
Do, or did, double-lip players demand that their students play this way? Did Harold Wright demand this of his students? My teacher in Italy did, but then again, he was of the old, dictatorial type.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2021-07-23 17:53
I studied with John Yeh (who studied with Wright) who used double lip but did not make an issue of it. It was only after I asked him about and expressed my interest in trying double lip that got him really talking about it. He was then supportive of my effort and I switched to double lip for two years.
Here's the thing though.
I was quite the biter at that stage back then and double lip was ALWAYS uncomfortable for me. I would HIGHLY recommend anyone interested to either be used to a light (non resistant) set up FIRST, or be willing to move to one PRIOR to going double lip. There really is nothing about pain that motivates one in a positive direction.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: Ken Lagace
Date: 2021-07-23 20:17
Another tip to strengthen the proper muscles is to raise the upper teeth off the mouthpiece just a bit. Just a bit will stop the bite.
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2021-07-23 20:28
Kalmen Opperman was a well known double lip player and would all but insist that his students play that way.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2021-07-23 20:38
Can we stop this never ending double lip conversation?
Everything has already been rehearsed.
Tony
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-07-23 20:42
I'm converting to double lip just now and Ken Lagace's tip about lifting the top teeth off the mouthpiece is really the key to it for me. I then grip the mouthpiece only with the ring of muscle of my lips.
It means I'm having to work at building up the muscles in my lips to have the endurance needed for longer pieces, but I'm willing to work on that, because so many things are improved by it.
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Author: BethGraham
Date: 2021-07-23 22:39
I'm not Tony, but let me reassure you that you have nothing to apologize for.
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Author: Ken Lagace
Date: 2021-07-23 23:54
Tony Pay is not learning anything here, but some members find it interesting.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2021-07-24 02:46
Obviously Tony has stopped learning LONG ago.
:-)
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2021-07-24 03:49
SunnyDaze wrote:
> I'm converting to double lip just now and Ken Lagace's tip
> about lifting the top teeth off the mouthpiece is really the
> key to it for me. I then grip the mouthpiece only with the ring
> of muscle of my lips.
>
> It means I'm having to work at building up the muscles in my
> lips to have the endurance needed for longer pieces, but I'm
> willing to work on that, because so many things are improved by
> it.
I don't write to antagonize those wishing double lip discussion to end. I write because I'm curious and those "who don't like the programming can flip the channel" to other forum threads as it were.
SunnyDaze: I'll often find myself playing double lip when in band, where adequate rest, (as compared to home solo and etude work) provides the ability for me to rest my chops: which cannot go the duration in double lip embouchure. I often switch back on forth at rehearsals between embouchures.
I like the sound I get, and it, I think buys me certain advantages, like when playing fast back and forth between distant notes (if you've ever played the Krommer Duet Op 91 Mvt 1 Allegro then you know what I am talking about.) But I often wonder if the work to acclimate to full time use is worth the benefits.
What problems do you feel the embouchure helps you with? Do you think that equal time spent on single lip embouchure or other changes would be less effective at resolving your issues?
A friend of mine plays with a device in his mouth in order to play this way. He was an Opperman student, who I mentioned prior was a double lip player and advocate.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2021-07-24 11:29
Actually, the real question that I have raised is: to what extent should a teacher impose his aesthetic concepts and way of doing things on his students?
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2021-07-24 13:50
I don't believe it is necessarily a conscious choice. The closest I think we can get is the Leon Russianoff method. He was really careful about allowing students to discover things for themselves.
Now I go back and forth about that sort of thing. But what it comes down to (fortunately or unfortunately) is that the craft of music is just that, a craft. We learn from a limited number of individuals who themselves learned from a few key individuals. We had a post recently that seemed to celebrate those whose knowledge came directly from Cyril Rose (a lineage that was not that hard to trace back).
As a teacher it is difficult to suss out all that works vs. what works for us. One example that had held me back as a student was tonguing. I have a slow tongue (as many average folks do) however, all the great teachers I had did not. As a result the best one-on-one advice I got was to "lighten up," or "let the air do most of the work." Where I should have been advised to develop double tonguing techniques early on. Or perhaps I should have realized that on my own(?).
As for embouchure, that is one of the perceived "magic bullets" that separates the great players from the not so great. And here in the States we get all "worked up" about it. Quite frankly I have come to the conclusion that the importance of embouchure is a false premise.
But as I search my memory regarding the great players here who I've had directly as private instructors or those who I've heard in master class, ALL had addressed embouchure and all were pretty much.........wrong. However they all had great careers and really did those things with their facial muscles. So they taught those things.
Can't help it.
.......................Paul Aviles
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-07-24 15:11
SecondTry - Thanks for asking.
I think I'm just doing double lip because doing single lip is really uncomfortable on my jaw.
Doing double lip takes the pain away. I figure if I'm going to be able to keep going and enjoying my playing in the long term, then I should put the work into developing a pain-free, sustainable technique.
Ruben -
In response to your opening question, I believe that there is a lot of space to work with the individual player to find a technique that works for them. I have a really lovely teacher who is happy to help me learn in my own way. I wouldn't be able to go to lessons and just do what I was told. But having help to figure things out one step at a time in my own way is wonderful!
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2021-07-24 20:19
ruben wrote:
> Actually, the real question that I have raised is: to what
> extent should a teacher impose his aesthetic concepts and way
> of doing things on his students?
>
My answer ruben would be "to the extent that those aesthetic concepts (i.e. a set of principles underlying and guiding the work of a particular artist or artistic movement) have been shown over the course of time to generate more advanced players than alternative schools of thought on some specific subject matter.
That's an enormously subjective standard I suspect.
As somewhat of an example, every so often you are going to find some virtuoso who approaches playing the instrument in ways that could make a principled educator cringe...say the lack of curvature to the fingers.
Could that person have been a better player if they had followed more conventional wisdom on, say, finger position---maybe?...maybe not? Maybe it would have made things worse for them.
Conventional wisdom is that which helps the most players the most. Maybe for some players conventional wisdom holds them back.
It's a numbers game. Opperman was very big on "his way or the highway," compared to Russianoff. They both produced students spanning the spectrum of proficiency.
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2021-07-24 20:20
SunnyDaze wrote:
> SecondTry - Thanks for asking.
>
> I think I'm just doing double lip because doing single lip is
> really uncomfortable on my jaw.
>
> Doing double lip takes the pain away. I figure if I'm going to
> be able to keep going and enjoying my playing in the long term,
> then I should put the work into developing a pain-free,
> sustainable technique.
>
Good answer...not what I was expecting. You see most people shy away from double lip I think because of its difficulty versus its benefits. In your case it provides more comfort!
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Author: brycon
Date: 2021-07-24 20:40
Quote:
But as I search my memory regarding the great players here who I've had directly as private instructors or those who I've heard in master class, ALL had addressed embouchure and all were pretty much.........wrong. However they all had great careers and really did those things with their facial muscles. So they taught those things.
So every professional player you've heard teach has it wrong, and you have it right?
Quote:
Actually, the real question that I have raised is: to what extent should a teacher impose his aesthetic concepts and way of doing things on his students?
Depends. I once had a private student who was a retired guy in his late 60s, picking up clarinet again after decades of working a more normal job. He had read (probably some silly thread here) that double-lip embouchure results in the most beautiful clarinet playing and was absolutely committed to it before he could even play the instrument. So yeah, why not? Knock yourself out with double lip: just have fun playing clarinet.
A high-level younger musician, though, perhaps auditioning for college or graduate school, I would absolutely steer away from using it full time (I do have students use double-lip embouchure some as a practice technique). Right now, playing double-lip and seated is simply way too far outside of the mainstream.
Quote:
Can we stop this never ending double lip conversation?
It's what Arthur Lovejoy, in his wonderful book The Great Chain of Being, calls the "pathos of the esoteric." "How exciting," he mockingly writes, "and how welcome is the sense of initiation into hidden mysteries!"
It seems never to occur to folks here that double-lip embouchure isn't some magical answer to all their problems but rather an alternative approach that, because of changes in repertoire, equipment, performance practice, and so on, most players with well-developed habits don't find any benefit in compared with the normal way of playing.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2021-07-24 21:09
brycon wrote:
> ...most
> players with well-developed habits don't find any benefit in [double lip]
> compared with the normal way of playing.
>
I would only take some exception to this description, presumably, of single-lip as the "normal way of playing." I'd be very curious to know how universal single lip is in other parts of the world than the U.S.. Is double lip exceptional around the world? I don't know and suspect that the answer may not be discoverable.
Single lip is certainly the predominant approach among clarinetists who get their start in our (American) public and private school programs. But, as a former teacher of beginning band students (long ago in what seems like a previous life), I had the most trouble at the very beginning stages getting the 10-12-year-olds we started to put their teeth on the mouthpiece. Many didn't like the vibrations, some didn't like the feel of the hard surface, some had other complaints. I don't think very many intuitively put their teeth in contact of any kind with the mouthpiece on their first attempts. It might well have been easier at that point, before the kids were wedded to any approach in particular, to let them keep their teeth off the mouthpiece and refine that into a double lip approach.
I don't take a position for against either approach. But I find myself suspecting that double lip is the more natural, intuitive way to insert a double or single reed into the player's mouth and that single lip developed in some areas as an alternative to solve certain specific problems that double lip can present.
Karl
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2021-07-24 21:27
I would agree with Tony Pay that this horse has been beaten to death, and the topic could best be dropped. But, each time, new mythologies are created that need to be addressed. Is it really true that double lip players must be in a seated position and that they are "far outside the mainstream"?
John Yeh, plays many solos each year from a standing position. He studied with Harold Wright, and like Wright plays double lip. Here's Yeh not only performing the Weber Concertino while standing but also managing to conduct the ensemble--quite vigorously--and bow at the end, without anyone offering him a chair, oxygen therapy, or having to assist him off the stage. Moreover, Yeh has played with the Chicago Symphony for many years, about as mainstream a musical organization as you can find. Also, single lip players of note--Robert Marcellus, for one--have performed solos from a seated position without any damage to their status or reputation. Is telling players that they cannot play from a seated position rather like demanding that they not use a neck strap?
Some players do better double-lip and some single. Everything else is a created mythology. Here's Yeh demythologized--mainstream, standing, double lip, strong performance, and nobody yelling from the rafters "Hey, man, when you gonna get with it and play normal single lip like the rest of us?" https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=John+Yeh+Chicago+Weber+Concertino.
Many jazz sax players have used double lip to great effect, playing long sets, frequently loud, from a standing position each night. Check out Coltrane, Herman Junior Cook, Gary Bartz, James Carter. Johnny Hodges, and Sidney Bechet. Not a shrinking violet in the lot. Abnormal? Fragile? Non-mainstream? Sedentary? Requiring long rest and recuperation? I doubt it.
Post Edited (2021-07-24 21:57)
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Author: Ed
Date: 2021-07-24 22:39
I agree with as seabreeze that it is great to see the BB revisit some of these discussions for the reasons mentioned. I also think that the passage of time can help many of us to gain new insights or perspectives.
As to teaching style, like most people I have certain thoughts or beliefs that are my starting point. Over time I evaluate student's strengths and weaknesses, needs, goals etc and adapt to what I think is best for the student. If something seems to be working, I often let the student play on equipment or in ways that are somewhat different from what I do, although it is different for each situation.
Post Edited (2021-07-24 23:26)
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Author: brycon
Date: 2021-07-24 23:05
Quote:
I would only take some exception to this description, presumably, of single-lip as the "normal way of playing." I'd be very curious to know how universal single lip is in other parts of the world than the U.S.. Is double lip exceptional around the world? I don't know and suspect that the answer may not be discoverable.
When I was in school, I had classmates from China, Russia, Turkey, Germany, Austria, Denmark, Israel, Hungary, Australia, and Canada, none of whom had ever played double-lip. And I've had students from China, Korea, and all over South America, with whom it's been the same story. Very small sample size, I know, so I can't say for sure. On the whole, though, my friends from outside the U.S. seem more concerned with musical understanding and expression--you know, the important stuff--than with a reverence for a particular school of clarinet playing, about which they never cared in the first place, to get bogged down in embouchure debates.
Quote:
Some players do better double-lip and some single. Everything else is a created mythology. Here's Yeh demythologized--mainstream, standing, double lip, strong performance, and nobody yelling from the rafters "Hey, man, when you gonna get with it and play normal single lip like the rest of us?"
This is a strawman, so why bother. But sure, there are some great double-lip players now; there were some great double-lip players earlier in the 20th century. A couple of exemplars, however, doesn't make it mainstream. But once you're grown up and have a job, then yeah, you do you: who cares.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-07-25 00:32
If people are concerned that the subject of double lip playing has been discussed too much, might it be worth making a "support thread" for the topic?
A support thread is a thing that exists on other forms. It's where people who are training hard at a given niche subject come together to encourage each other and discuss the finer points of technique.
The support thread is only for people with that special interest and it means they can dive deep into details that might seem really annoying to other people who are not interested at all.
It would usually be titled "Support thread 4: Double lip" or whatever, and when it is full then a new one would be created called "Support thread 5: Double lip" so people know where to go to carry on the discussion.
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Author: BethGraham
Date: 2021-07-25 01:33
That's a really good idea, Jen. This topic may have been "done to death" by veterans of the board, but newer members (like me!) can learn a lot from reading and participating in current threads. (There's much to be said for learning by talking through issues.)
Sure, we can use the search function to find discussions from The Dawn of Time, but either this board is a living, breathing entity or it's -- what? -- a repository for discussions held by Expert Members of yore. A research tool, and little else.
I guess I have opinions, too.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-07-25 01:41
That's pretty much what I was thinking Beth, but maybe put a bit more directly. I love the idea that the BBoard existed at the Dawn of Time.
For what it's worth, I suspect I'm currently investigating double lip as a way to drag my clarinet playing back onto its feet after long covid.
I suspect, or at least I hope, that that is a very niche activity indeed. However, it's looming very large in my mind right now, and a support thread would be lovely if anyone would like to join one.
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2021-07-25 01:41
My only criticism (that you're being too nice) SunnyDaze is that a single dissenter exists, (who then no less subsequently contributes to the thread he wish end,) and who at any time could choose to participate in other threads/start his or her own, or not participate, it seems to me to the solution is to ignore the dissenter.
Perhaps I've have a different and more compassionate mindset here if discussion of one topic, even one well covered, precluded discussion of another. It just doesn't work that way here.
Should I go to each thread here that doesn't peak my interest and add a post wishing the discussion to terminate, or simply choose the threads that interest me?
Post Edited (2021-07-25 01:43)
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2021-07-25 03:58
The link Tony provides points out that some people prefer being told what to do or being told what is right or best. I agree: being so told can promote a kind of anchoring certainty in some people by which they will diligently work and steadily improve. They have faith that if they keep doing specific standard a, b, and c they'll eventually get there, so that's what they do with their best diligence. If a, b and c aren't too counterproductive, these students will do very well.
The alternative is a situation where that kind of certainty is absent, but diligent work is still required. It's more complicated and motivation is trickier. Instead of "this will work if you keep trying," you have something more like "use this option instead of that, and we'll see, but maybe after a time you'll do otherwise." It's more context-dependent and adaptive, rather than one size fitting all. Again, some students do very well with this.
Personally, there is no certainty in the world, zero. There's only accumulating data, math, morality, and decisions based thereon. Teaching is a daunting prospect, but if I did it I would favor the second approach above, only "teaching certainty" to particular students who seem to want it, and that only until I could teach them not to rely on it.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-07-25 09:25
I know what you mean SecondTry, but I think that with a proper long-running thread we could say a lot more and in a lot more detail.
This feels to me like a thread about elucidating the truth once, and then stopping.
In a long running discussion thread we could chat along in great detail about the lived experience of working with double lip embouchure, and that might teach us all sorts of stuff.
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