 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-07-14 14:27
Hi,
I wondered if anyone might know of a book that I could read to find out about the history of the development of the double lip embouchure?
I'm playing double lip now and people are asking me where that came from and "is that a new thing you got off the internet?".
I have read "Kalmen Opperman: A legacy of Excellence" and "The Clarinet"
F. Geoffrey Rendall.
I would be really glad to know if there is another book that explains the generations of players who have passed double lip playing down, and which part of the world it came from.
Thanks!
Jennifer
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Author: Ken Lagace
Date: 2021-07-14 16:24
Since the clarinet started with the reed on top, the mouthpiece 'upside down', a good book might be on the history of single lip embouchure.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-07-14 16:54
Thanks, yes I suppose so. That was what was covered in "The Clarinet"
F. Geoffrey Rendall., and some of the lineage of the teachers of double lip was covered in the book about Kalmen Opperman. Maybe that's all there is in writing.
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Author: ACCA
Date: 2021-07-14 17:14
Tom Ridenour's "Educator's guide to the clarinet" has a substantial section on it, but dwells more on the advantages and execution of, rather than history of. Certainly nothing new.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2021-07-14 19:36
Double reeds, which go much farther into antiquity than single-reed mouthpieces, would have been played naturally with both lips contacting the reeds. The single reeds would have evolved from those, so the single lip embouchure would have been an evolutionary step from the older double reed tradition.
Definitely not a 20th century invention.
Karl
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-07-14 20:20
Hi Karl,
Thanks, I hadn't thought about that.
I might sign up to the international clarinet association. Maybe there would be something in their archives.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2021-07-14 21:54
There are reams of research material on this question. Generally, for well over a century from the time just before 1700 when Denner's clarinet made appearances in orchestras, till Ivan Muller in his method book of 1818 recommended a single lip embouchure, the vast majority of clarinetists played not only with double lip, but with the reed facing up! As Ken implies, when you play with the reed facing up, you would generally use both lips. Victor A. Buttipaglia, in his 1975 dissertation for Eastman School of Music, "The Double Lip in Clarinet Playing," does mention that a few of the reed up players put their bottom teeth on the mouthpiece surface, but the vast majority followed the double reed player's habit of pulling both lips over the teeth. Italian clarinetists in large numbers continued to play with the reed up against the upper lip, double lip style right up to about 1900. When Gino Cioffi (Boston Symphony) arrived in the US he played that way.
Buttipaglia's dissertation can be accessed here https://urresearch.rochester.edu
Even after the reed down position became ubiquitous, many players continued to play double lip, especially in France and Italy (German players mostly adopted the single lip embouchure). In the United States, owing to the teaching of the following players, the double lip embouchure was carried over well into the 20th Century and beyond: Gaston Hamelin, Louis Cahuzac, David Weber, Ralph McLane, Harold Wright, Elsa Ludwig-Verdehr, Efrain Guigui, Reginal Kell, Richard Stolzman, Kalman Opperman, John Yeh.
Some good clarinet history books in English that lead into more information on the double lip (and reed up) embouchures are Al Rice, The Clarinet in the Classical Period and the Clarinet in the Baroque period.
Post Edited (2021-07-14 22:17)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-07-14 22:03
Thanks Seabreeze! I found it online. That will keep me busy tonight. :-)
https://urresearch.rochester.edu/institutionalPublicationPublicView.action?institutionalItemId=35968
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2021-07-14 22:43
My references are only the barest beginning. Also see Eric Hoeprich's book The Clarinet (Yale Press) and Hoeprich's scholarly article, "The Clarinet Reed Position in the 18th Century" along with the two books by Albert Rice. There's lots more material in German and French. Benny Goodman switched to double lip after he studied with Reginal Kell, and some famous players today, like Ricardo Morales, recommend double lip though they usually don't play that way in public concerts.
Interestingly, one of the most revered American teachers, Leon Russianoff, seems to have considered double lip a waste of time for most students.
Double is less stable and tends toward a more subtle, less assertive sound. One benefit it offers that is not often discussed is to players who have full or nearly full dentures or are trying to get by with missing teeth. Double lip may be (paradoxically) easier for them, and in some cases may be the only option they have if they want to play the clarinet.
Tony Pay, Mitchell Lurie, and Chris King are three great players who said that they found some possible benefits to double lip playing but were unable physically to play that way because of a very short upper lip.
Finally, I'm not so sure that double lip is only for demure, sophisticates who like understatement and nuance. I met the jazz tenor player James Carter at a university presentation and he warmed up by blasting out the lowest notes on the tenor with a booming sound one might expect from a monster size bass sax. Everyone in the room jumped a little involuntarily at the power of the sound Then he told me he always has played and was then playing double lip.
So we should beware of all clichés that have taken hold of this subject. There is always more to learn.
One scholar who has a fresh view on clarinet history is Ingrid E. Pearson of the Royal College of Music . https://rcm.academia.edu/IngridEPearson. She is actively pursuing more detail on the chronological and cultural development of the reed up, reed down, single lip, double lip permutations.
.
Post Edited (2021-07-14 23:34)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-07-14 23:35
Hi Seabreaze,
Thanks, this is exactly the kind of information I was looking for.
It's interesting that you mention the advantage to people who don't have teeth.
I've been really interested in ergonomics for years, and was the ergonomics person in my office for a few years a while back. I've always been most interested in backs and wrists previously. Now that I am playing the clarinet, I've been thinking a lot about the risks of TMD and about what happens when a player has trouble with front teeth. It seems to me that the double lip embouchure is a very solid insurance policy against both of those problems, and that's one of the reasons why I'm working on it.
Thanks again for all of this great information.
Jen
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-07-15 12:03
Hi Seabreeze,
I read the first third of that dissertation last night, and it's really striking how he says that all the great double lip players had fairly different ways of forming a double lip embouchure, that were based on their own different anatomical set up.
The more I read about clarinet playing, the more I think there is no singe correct way to do it.
Jen
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Author: Ed
Date: 2021-07-15 14:25
Quote:
Double is less stable and tends toward a more subtle, less assertive sound.
As is mentioned that we should beware of cliches, that is one of those that that I would characterize as a commonly held belief that is not accurate.
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2021-07-15 18:56
I don't mean this question to hijack this post but does anyone know of what ultimately motivated mouthpieces to get turned 180 degrees such that the reed was facing closer to the ground, thus bringing in the possibility of single lip embouchures?
This mouthpiece transition may yield light on some of the history the OP seeks.
Thanks.
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Author: brycon
Date: 2021-07-15 19:10
Quote:
I don't mean this question to hijack this post but does anyone know of what ultimately motivated mouthpieces to get turned 180 degrees such that the reed was facing closer to the ground, thus bringing in the possibility of single lip embouchures?
Well, we open our mouths from our lower jaw. It makes sense, then, for flexibility of tone color, intonation, etc., to play with the reed facing downward.
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2021-07-17 02:13
brycon wrote:
> Well, we open our mouths from our lower jaw. It makes sense,
> then, for flexibility of tone color, intonation, etc., to play
> with the reed facing downward.
Maybe I need to ask a better version of my question.
If the above is true then why at all did single reeds first appear on mouthpieces closer to the sky, and why didn't the transition to orienting the reed closer to the ground happen even sooner?
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Author: brycon
Date: 2021-07-17 06:23
Quote:
If the above is true then why at all did single reeds first appear on mouthpieces closer to the sky, and why didn't the transition to orienting the reed closer to the ground happen even sooner?
Well, I don't have data on how many people played with the mouthpiece facing up or down. But I imagine that the thesis, "Everyone played with mouthpieces facing up until x year, when things switched to mouthpieces facing down," isn't entirely accurate. In the 18th century, conservatories were relatively new, instrumental pedagogy was in its beginning stages, and clarinets were in a state of constant evolution; I imagine there were many different approaches to playing.
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Author: Ken Lagace
Date: 2021-07-17 06:38
Reed on top? articulation is by the breath like a singer.
Reed on bottom, the tongue makes staccato speed and shortness possible.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2021-07-17 08:00
I would have to disagree with the articulation assertion. If you tongue "tip-of-tongue" to "tip-of-the reed," the action is exactly the same. Also, I believe you'd probably hold the clarinet up higher with the mouthpiece on the bottom and tip of the reed access would be virtually identical.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-07-17 12:48
There's a lot of detail about how to play with the reed uppermost on page 13 of the dissertation mentioned by Seabreeze:
The double-lip embouchure in clarinet playing by Victor A Battipaglia
at https://urresearch.rochester.edu/institutionalPublicationPublicView.action?institutionalItemId=35968
Apparently it was still standard practice in Naples in the 1930s. The information is from a player called Gino Cioffi.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2021-07-17 19:22
Quote:
If the above is true then why at all did single reeds first appear on mouthpieces closer to the sky, and why didn't the transition to orienting the reed closer to the ground happen even sooner?
It sounds like a story from mythology. The reeds were facing the sky and then when they were turned to face the underworld we were forever punished with reed problems!
;-)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-07-20 17:20
I'm reading further through the dissertation and I found a passage where they confirm Ken Lagace's assertion.
It says that in 1764 they couldn't play sixteenths, because they were playing with the reed uppermost and articulating with the breathing rather than the tongue at that point.
So somehwere between there and the 1930s when the Italian guy came to America, someone must have figured out tongue articulation with the reed uppermost.
The dissertation is amazing. I'm really enjoying it.
I love the idea that it would have been natural to double on oboe, clarinet and bassoon back in the 1700s when all clarinet were played double lip with the reed uppermost.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2021-07-20 18:28
SunnyDaze wrote:
> So somewhere between there and the 1930s when the Italian guy
> came to America, someone must have figured out tongue
> articulation with the reed uppermost.
Not sure if you're being ironic in avoiding "the Italian guy's" name, but in case you weren't aware, he was Gino Cioffi, principal clarinet of the Boston Symphony 1950-1970 and, before that, Pittsburgh, NY Philharmonic, NY Metropolitan Opera and a couple of others. When you've gotten what you can from your current reading, you might find something about the development of (or away from) reed-on-top playing by tracing Cioffi's clarinet lineage in Italy (if it's available) and see what if anything any of his teachers or their teachers wrote about articulating.
It's an interesting thought that the clarinet was a German invention, so one good question would be whether the early German players played reed-on-top. The earliest clarinet concerti (e.g. Molter) of the mid-1700s (40 or 50 years after Johann Denner's introduction of the first clarinets) would argue against it. They were as 16th-note heavy as anything that followed and generally as technically advanced. Or, they would argue that articulation even then was not limited to the slow breath variety. Did r-o-t actually come from local practice on earlier single reed instruments (particularly? the chalumeau) that may have originated elsewhere?
Was reed-on-top a tradition anywhere other than Italy as recently as the 1930s, when Cioffi arrived in the US playing that way?
I can't answer any of these questions - I haven't done the research (although I suddenly find the idea tempting). But the possibilities seem interesting.
Karl
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2021-07-20 19:05
Cioffi reportedly told some of his students that he could tongue faster with the reed up. The most famous Italian virtuoso clarinetist, Ernesto Cavallini, considered the Paganini of the clarinet, appears to have been--Martin Frost style in his own day--a master of all sorts of articulation tricks as well as circular breathing. He could play his Caprices as rapidly as the racing climax of a Rossini overture. So, yes, somewhere along the line the Italians learned to rapidly articulate using the tongue with the reed up, rather than just resorting to chest articulation.
Some Italians, famous in their time, who played with the reed up include Vinater Adami, Giovanni Gambaro, Ernesto Cavallini, Lugi Bassi, Benedetto Carulli, Fernando Sebastini, Domenico Liverani, and Gaetano Labanchi. The one notable exception was Giovanni Bimboni, who attracted attention by adopting the then eccentric practice of playing with the reed down (around 1850). No doubt, many must have asked "why do you play with the mouthpiece upside down?"
Post Edited (2021-07-20 19:56)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2021-07-20 19:42
seabreeze wrote:
> So, yes, somewhere along the line the Italians
> learned to rapidly articulate using the tongue with the reed
> up. rather than just resorting to chest articulation.
>
We might want to put this at least partially to rest. Singers articulate with their tongues, their lips and even their throats - the words they sing, after all, are speech, and the syllables are articulated by tongue, lip and glottal consonants. Breath articulation is important in long legato passages that we might call slurs on an instrument, in which a single syllable continues over many notes often at fast tempos in order to avoid a continuous glissando/portamento/ambulance siren effect. An example is "His yoke is easy" from The Messiah. "Yoke" covers three notes, "is" covers two, and then "easy" is a longer melisma.
It seems to me, on no hard evidence, that reed-on-top players may have found ways to articulate against the hard palate instead of touching the reed itself. Doesn't sound comfortable to me, but I've never played with reed on top. This would have depended on how far the mouthpiece projected into the mouth. Flutists and brass players articulate this way normally, since there's nothing in their mouths to interfere.
There has always existed a school of clarinet articulation that advocates tonguing in the aperture between the reed and the mouthpiece tip. I don't suppose (again, with no experience) it would make much difference whether the reed were up or down.
Karl
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-07-20 23:16
That's really interesting to think about how flautists aritculate when the have no reed. I hadn't thought about that.
I find this subject so interesting, because we get to see it all in fast-forward, with all of the history and the current practice to enjoy, just like watching a soap opera unfold over centuries.
I imagine that they must have really agonised over all of the decisions and thought so deeply about them. I'm really glad that the author (Victor A. Buttipaglia) did all these interviews, and wrote it all down for us to read. It makes me want to try even harder to do it right and get the perfect tone.
I also really want to try an oboe now. I definitely will not, because I realise from my clarinet experience that I do not have the funds to get hold of a good one. I did try a bassoon once, and it was wonderful.
Karl - I'm really sorry about being lazy about Gino Cioffi's name. All of these names are completely new to me, so I'm struggling to get a grip of them. I'm good at science, but know very little about history, and absolutely nothing about the great clarinet players of the past. Like actually zero.
Also, you'll never believe this, but I and all my family have again got covid just in the last four days, so I'm not really on my best form today - at least for remembering names.
We're in the UK, in a Delta hotspot, and the regulations have all been lifted, so there's really no getting away from it. I love Mr Buttipaglia for writing this dissertation to make my covid day nicer. (also vaccinations, which are great too.)
Thank you very much for filling in more of the stories. If you know of anything else that I could read, I'd be glad to hear about it.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-07-20 23:24
I have actually tried playing reed-up and it's hard to articulate the reed because it's on the other side of the mouthpiece from my tongue. It's tempting then to hold the instrument out further in front so that the top of the reed is in reach, but that is quite hard. But I'm really certain that the professionals of the past had thought about it more than I have.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2021-07-21 00:15
SunnyDaze wrote:
> I imagine that they must have really agonised over all of the
> decisions and thought so deeply about them.
Probably not. Players probably just did it - no serious thought at all, just whatever worked. It might have taken some experimenting, but I'd guess that when hey found something that worked, they just played. If later someone found an improvement, people would adopt it if it made things easier.
>
> Karl - I'm really sorry about being lazy about Gino Cioffi's
> name. All of these names are completely new to me, so I'm
> struggling to get a grip of them.
I didn't read it as laziness, just that Cioffi was too far back in time to have meant much, if anything, to you. He was still playing in Boston when I was a high school and college student.
> Also, you'll never believe this, but I and all my family have
> again got covid just in the last four days, so I'm not really
> on my best form today - at least for remembering names.
>
That's troubling to read. I hope everyone in your family recovers well and quickly. Is it any less serious the second time around? I would hope you had some immunity after your first bout.
Karl
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Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2021-07-21 06:56
Back in days of yore people sounded great, and they played double lip
Today people don’t sound great and they play single lip. That’s the history of double lip. But is it correlation or causation?
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-07-21 08:46
Hi Karl,
It hadn't occurred to me that you would have known Gino Cioffi as a living player. That actually really helps me to understand the context of the writing much better.
In my field (which is plant science research) I have known some amazing people who must have started their careers very early in the 1900s. It was a real pleasure to meet them and hear, even briefly, what it was like for them starting out, compared to our experiences now.
Thanks for your kind sympathy on the covid infection here. My son is looking a lot better since Saturday. I'm having the infection more mildly so far. However, I'm not counting any chickens, as my last infection left me unable to play for 8 months. I really don't fancy that again. Fingers crosssed it will be easier this time. If not, I'll be learning grade 6 theory this summer. LOL!
Tom - Thanks, yes that is what I'm finding. My teacher was very much trained in the single lip tradition, but I showed him once my double lip playing and he said "That sounds great! You should keep doing that!" which was really nice.
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Author: BethGraham
Date: 2021-07-21 16:37
I'm so sorry to hear that you all have Covid *again*. Thoughts for a quick recovery winging their way to you from Ontario, Canada. ♥️
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-07-22 15:05
Hi Beth,
Thank you for thinking of us. My son is a lot better now, my husband and I, working on it, a few days behind.
Jen x
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The Clarinet Pages
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