 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: leolollo
Date: 2021-07-08 12:47
I would like to understand why integral tone holes are deemed more desirable than insert tone holes.
It seems to me that insert tone holes are present in studio instruments and cheaper professional instruments.
Is this list of instruments with insert tone holes correct?
Buffet e-11
Buffet e-13 (?)
Yamaha ycl 450
Yamaha ycl 650
Yamaha CX
The old yamaha ycl-62 also had insert tone holes like the custom cx?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2021-07-08 16:46
I wouldn't listen any marketing hype one way or the other. Professional wood clarinets are indeed usually milled as one unit, but repairs to cracks that extend into tone holes often require adding inserts. You can also think of the Buffet Greenline as one BIG insert. Also, the Rossi clarinets (top professional clarinets) have a synthetic sleeve through the top half of their bore to give them more stability against cracking.
You might say adding an insert shows more attention to the manufacturing process OR you could say that not needing one (on a well made clarinet) shows greater detail in manufacture. Take your pick. Doesn't make a difference. it's just a different way to address the final configuration of a tone hole.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2021-07-08 19:14
Buffet E13 clarinets have integral toneholes.
There are some pro level clarinets with inset toneholes - Howarth S1, S2 and S3 clarinets as well as Peter Eaton International and Elite. I'm pretty sure Schwenk&Seggelke clarinets also have inset toneholes.
B&H 1010 clarinets from the '60s onwards have integral toneholes and you can often see the file marks in between them.
An odd thing I encountered a couple of years back was a Selmer Signature where all the countersunk toneholes on the top joint were bushed with wooden bushes - even the speaker vent countersink was bushed! I don't know if that's standard on Signatures as I rarely ever see that many newer Selmers (well - from the past 30 years onwards anyway) as it's mostly Buffet country here.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2021-07-08 21:52
My Schwenk & Seggelke clarinets have insert tone holes, as I believe do most professional German clarinets.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2021-07-08 22:45
I believe Wurlitzer uses insert tone holes. I have played instruments with that style tone holes and don't know if I can tell any difference. There are probably a number of advantages, including that you may be able to use a slightly smaller piece of wood.
Post Edited (2021-07-08 22:47)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2021-07-09 00:23
There was an odd reworking of an E13 done by a German company called Schneider where the (integral) toneholes were drilled out through to the bore and plastic tonehole inserts were fitted and held in place (or not) with rubber O rings.
I can't understand the logic behind that as it not only commands a much higher price for an E13 with this conversion work compared to a standard E13, but it also completely removes any integrity as the tonehole inserts have no support and could be rotated and pushed through into the bore which was left chipped and splintered where the cutters emerged into the bore. Toneholes are usually drilled before the bore is reamed to its finished size, therefore removing any splinters and raised grain caused during the drilling process.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2021-07-09 01:34
Now this is odd - I've got a red and a blue Vito Dazzler as well as having seen them in white and yellow in the past and the tonehole chimneys are usually the same colour as the rest of them.
But I've never seen any Dazzlers with inset black tonehole chimneys like this yellow one as the tonehole chimneys are usually moulded integrally with the joints as is the norm with injection moulded plastic clarinets:
https://portal-images.azureedge.net/auctions-2021/rogers10343/images/0563e583-f5fc-48f7-800b-ad5e00fdc5ed.jpg
That must be a fairly recent one as far as Dazzlers go as it has the notch in the socket ring and corresponding nickel silver pin on the mid tenon shoulder to line the joints up correctly like later Vitos. I think it was called something like 'PRAG' which is an acronym for ...
Those plastic Vito cases were dreadful as they put pressure on the keywork on the lower joint putting the crow's foot out of adjustment.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2021-07-09 04:18)
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2021-07-09 02:52
Wow! That looks exactly like the interior of my old 1970s/1980s Vito case! I guess they stuck with what worked!
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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Author: Monsterchef
Date: 2021-07-09 02:53
My Yamaha csg has inserted tone hole on left hand upper joint c#/g# and milled tone hole for the rest. Dietz reform boehms have milled tone holes throughout.
I don’t see how it can make a difference as long as tone hole geometry is stable?
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2021-07-09 06:17
The Buffet Legende clarinet is a high-end professional model wood instrument (selling for $7,700 to $8,200) that has "greenline" (wood particles in a plastic matrix) tone-hole inserts. So even among French Boehm clarinets, tone hole inserts are not necessarily an indication that the instrument is intermediate or entry-level professional.
Buffet says the greenline inserts insure air tight closure, promote excellent sound quality, and help to prevent cracking.
Post Edited (2021-07-09 06:38)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2021-07-09 15:43
There are advantages and disadvantages to both, but one reason that is often missed is the manufacturing of the chimney tone holes.
To make them from the solid piece, the area has to be turned down only to the chimney height, then milled in a way that leaves them there. With inserts, it's a much simpler process of turning the entire section, and you can even start with a smaller diameter material.
To make these from one piece in an efficient way requires specific machine/tools, which e.g. Buffet has and maybe some other companies too. Without it it can vary from completely unrealistic to adding much more time, setups, tools, etc. that could increase price very significantly. If you make many, the special efficient tools might reduce costs at the end. In the Buffet manufacturing video it is not completely clear if it's done on the same machine (some kind of millturn) or a different one, but it's a quick process with a specialized tool/machine.
In the musical instrument world companies tend to advertise whatever they have as an advantage i.e. if you use inserts, you will emphasize their pros, if the tone holes are solid, you emphasize that as a pro. They tend to not use efficiency for advertising (e.g. they can make it just as good but faster and cheaper), which is usually reserved to the business world.
One advantage to solid tone holes is there is one less place to fail. It is rare that original inserts glue fails but I've seen it a few times. They can also look fine but leak and to check for that means disassembling, etc.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2021-07-09 16:35
Here's one advantage to the synthetic tone hole (or Greenline). Wood tone holes can, and do go "out of round," whereas, the synthetic inserts are inert. When wooden clarinets are not aged enough, their tone holes can go out of round when exposed to the constant moisture build up produced when we play. This causes intonation/response irregularities. Before Ricardo Morales left the Backun fold there was a great video with Ricardo and Morrie sitting down after Ricardo had one of Morrie's horns for about a year. Ricardo noticed that the performance of the horn had gotten a little funky at a certain spot in the clarion. Morrie found that one of the tone holes had gotten a little ovate and he proceeded to re-round the tone hole with a simple hand tool. This brought the instrument back up to spec. Unfortunately now that Morales is with Uebel, the video is no longer on the net.
................Paul Aviles
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