 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-06-16 12:43
Hi,
I wondered if I could show you a 3D printed angled barrel that my husband made on the 3D printer for my clarinet?
He did it because I always find it quite uncomfortable to have to pull my lower jaw back to accommodate the mouthpiece, and I sometimes toy with holding the clarinet right out like a trumpet so that my jaw can be in a more natural position. We had a discussion on the BBoard before about possibly having an angled barrel made, and my husband then made one.
I'm on grade 4 now with longer pieces to play, lots of long tones, and playing pieces at half speed to hone my technique, which makes them twice as long. I find that my jaw hurts a lot by the end of a long practice, and so I decided to try the angled barrel.
This is the video of me using it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSDg1Zm1CfY
First I play a scale with the bent barrel, then holding the instrument right out front like a trumpet, and then close to my body with my jaw pulled back.
I also previously made this short video of my normal embouchure:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0wskNt8QY8&authuser=0
and this one of an adjustment that I tried when I stop clamping my jaw so hard, but just blow much harder instead:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zfjd-Ysaxfs&authuser=0
I sent them to my teacher too, but just wondered if anybody here might have thoughts on it? It seems like the clarinet is not entirely designed to fit the anatomy of the human jaw (yet).
Thanks!
Jennifer
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Author: Tom Piercy
Date: 2021-06-16 14:21
Hello.
You have the YouTube video set to "private."
Curious to see the barrel, but you'll have to set it to public for us to watch.
Tom Piercy
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-06-16 14:36
Hi,
Sorry about that. I have switched them to public now. I will take a close-up photo of the barrel too and post it.
Jen x
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-06-16 14:45
Attachment: IMG_9986.jpg (251k)
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Here are the photos. It's a bit hard to make out, but he just made two cylinders with an angle on each and glued them together.
My husband is a freakishly smart computer scientist, so when I say "He just did this." I'm understating quite a lot. I actually have no idea how he managed to make a bent barrel that was the right length to keep the pitch right. Literally none.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2021-06-16 15:40
I would reference back to several of Tony Pay's posts where he basically says that the embouchure is not a "clamp" but more like an adjustable spanner set at a specific opening, and you just insert the mouthpiece/reed into it. Yes there is a little, VERY LITTLE jaw muscle engaged but it is so subtle as to not really be a conscious act (or shouldn't be).
I have to confess to be at a loss to see exactly why you tend toward the up angle (of the regular barrel) for the clarinet. There is a directive in a few Mahler works where he wants that posture for clarinets supposedly to project out to the audience as much as possible. I can play with decent sound from that angle all the way down to pretty much scraping my belly (easier to touch my belly these days).
One great tip I got a long time ago is that your teeth should not be in opposition on the mouthpiece. Your upper teeth should be positioned much higher up on the mouthpiece than your lower teeth. This way you have a fulcrum rather than an up and down clamp. And there should not be any movement of your jaw backward or forward. That's just asking for TMJ problems. Honestly I will need to think about this attitude of the clarinet issue more before I have a response to why you are currently in need of the position you have (pretty good for bass clarinet!).
Lastly but I feel most importantly, when you held your clarinet out trumpet style it appeared that your stomach collapsed as your breath came to an end. Your sound will become much more solid when you can keep your stomach OUT (does not collapse like a toothpaste tube).
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-06-16 16:41
Hi Paul,
Thank you for looking. I've been watching Michelle Anderson's video on embouchure again and trying different things. It seems to me that balancing the forces in the musculature around the jaw and lips is very complicated.
In the past I figured I was doing it right if the clarinet sounded nice. Now I need to find a balance that lets me play for a long time without injury, and that is a whole different thing.
Jen
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Author: Ken Lagace
Date: 2021-06-16 18:03
Two thoughts;
#1 Lift your upper teeth off the top of the mouthpiece to force the lip muscles to do more work. If you tried double lip, you might bite right into your upper lip and lose some blood. This is a way to learn what the muscles do. Then gently place the teeth back on the top of the mouthpiece using more lip strength and less jaw strength.
#2 I disagree with Paul A. about the stomach out. I think the proper way to breathe is diaphragm (it looks like a dome under the lungs) muscles contract down, pulling the air down into the lower lungs (and moving the stomach out forward, out of the way), then using the stomach muscles to push the air back up and out. You don't seem to be using nearly enough air 'speed' while you play. That happens by blowing harder, but not playing louder.
Paul, jump in and explain your way in more detail. I have never heard of that approach.
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Author: Ken Lagace
Date: 2021-06-16 18:07
And another quick thought, the barrel bore, length, size and shape have a LOT of influence on tuning of the different registers, and within each register.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-06-16 19:03
Hi Ken,
Thanks, that's brilliant. I'm giving it a go.
I just tried that with lifting my upper teeth up and blowing harder. I figured out a bunch of things, and one thing really confuses me.
In Michelle Anderson's embouchure video she says I have to roll my lower lip over my lower teeth and pull it tight backwards, and then pull the skin on my chin downwards to make it flat. Then she says I have to pull the corners of my mouth in toward the clarinet.
But if I do that then I am pulling loads of muscles really hard in many different directions and everything hurts.
Just now, I tried just sticking the clarinet in my mouth, gathering my lips round the mp in a really tight ring, lifting my teeth off the top, and blowing. When I do that I only have to think about pulling the muscles in one direction, and that is to tighten that ring of muscle round the mp. It is much simpler, and it isn't making my muscles work against each other. My lower lip is still wrapped over the top of my lower teeth, but not pulled tight. My jaw isn't involved at all so there is no risk of TMD that I can see.
This is what it looked like:
https://youtu.be/1efqmbHh0os
Is that any good, or any I still not quite getting it?
I tried blowing much harder too. Is the idea that if I blow much harder then I don't need to clamp the reed so hard?
Thanks so much for looking. I'm really grateful for the time you take to help me.
Jen
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2021-06-16 19:30
Firstly I'd say a good embouchure approach is really more of a rubber band or drawstring idea. If you've ever tried to get a really thick milk shake through a straw, your lips with feel like that, only with the clarinet, you are blowing out.
Ken,
Have you heard of Robert Marcellus? I don't think he'd made any secret to how he blows the clarinet. He often told the story in master classes of thinking about "support," and passing Clark Brody in the halls of Northwestern University. He asked Brody if his stomach remains out when he is blowing through the clarinet or does it go in. Brody thought for a moment and said, "I don't know." Later that day Brody poked his head through the door of Marcellus' office and announced, "Out!"
It's all part of the diaphragm/abdominal muscles being in opposition to provide the "support" necessary for a good sound. One, more politically correct way to say it, was given by an oboe instructor on YouTube who directed viewers to cough. Now take that feeling in your gut that you have when you cough and hold that through a breath out through your horn. You should get an immediate (and somewhat shocking) improvement.......if you haven't been doing things right that is.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: Ken Lagace
Date: 2021-06-16 19:36
I think your sound improved at least 100%?
Compare the sound of the 2nd note in;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zfjd-Ysaxfs
With the 1st note in
https://youtu.be/1efqmbHh0os
Much improved!!!
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-06-16 20:09
Hi,
Thank you very much for that. I will try tomorrow with the rubber band approach as my new plan. I will also think about what Paul said about coughing, because I think I do know what he means by that.
Jen
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Author: BethGraham
Date: 2021-06-16 20:37
The way breath support is finally (!) clicking for me is to 1) take a full, deep breath, and then 2) push upward on the muscle(s) just below my ribcage, keeping the muscle contracted while I play. At this point, I'm having to concentrate quite a bit on keeping that muscle engaged, but I imagine that it'll starting becoming muscle memory at some point.
I am coming to understand that there is almost always more than one approach towards the same goal, and that, for me, the important thing is to trust my teacher and work with her toward a complicated concept like breath support. For me, at this point in my learning, if I try to add in other (maybe competing) ideas from Michelle Anderson and other trusted online resources, I end up complicating my learning process. And then frustration ensues.
That said, if I find an interesting approach online that could be "game changing," I discuss it with my teacher during my lessons to see if it makes sense to incorporate it into my practice.
Incidentally, to return to the topic of embouchure, I have really severe TMJ issues due to arthritis in my jaw, but find that I generally don't put any strain on my TMJ with my embouchure. At the moment, I use a fairly relaxed embouchure, with any "stiffening" coming from the lips and cheek muscles. I'm still working with my teacher to refine my embouchure: in particular, I'm having a "cheek puffing out" challenge on high notes lately!
It is so very hard to be an adult learner, isn't it? I find that we as a group overthink everything.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-06-16 22:14
Hi Beth,
That's good that your technique is working for you.
I love listening to all different sources, and taking the advice that works when I try it, no matter where it comes from. Coming to this forum has been brilliant for me, as the experienced voices on here really have such insight.
I was an ergonomics lead in a computer office for several years and so I also have seen the mess that can be left behind, if people try to push through pain, rather than taking the time to sort their equipment and technique. As a result, I would never think of it as "over-thinking". I think any thinking is generally good thinking.
Good luck there.
Jen
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2021-06-16 22:17
Attachment: Clarinetist\'s Compendium.pdf (423k)
I found this. Of course there are a lot of "shoulds" (first page of Daniel Bonade's Clarinetist's Compendium). I still am trying to come up with a way to explain the angle of the clarinet mouthpiece in the mouth and HOW to do that comfortably.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-06-16 22:42
Attachment: angle.jpg (723k)
Hi Paul,
That's brilliant, thanks. My upper teeth fall exactly 1cm from the top of the mouthpiece and the outside of my lower lip is 18mm from the top. This is with my new setup, but these distances haven't changed from the old setup.
I tried moving my lower lip down, but the reed stops sounding if I do that.
I have attached a photo of my clarinet angle as it is if I play standing up and using my sling. The angle doesn't vary at all, as it is set absolutely by my sling, but I can change the way the sling is set up in order to radically change the angle of the clarinet if needed.
Thanks!
Jen
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2021-06-17 00:20
Paul Aviles wrote:
> Ken,
>
>
> Have you heard of Robert Marcellus? I don't think he'd made
> any secret to how he blows the clarinet.
Paul, I don't think condescension becomes you.
Gigliotti taught the same thing. But, they (and a whole lot of other American clarinetists of their age cohort) were all shaped by the same regimen at Curtis Institute, and I think it's safe to assume that, while the Curtis approach was one way to play a wind instrument well, it isn't likely to be the only way. And citing a single player, however highly successful he was, as the only authority on the correct way to play is, I think, a little myopic.
> One, more politically correct way to say it, was given by an
> oboe instructor on YouTube who directed viewers to cough.
We have all, of course, heard more indelicate descriptions of the sensations involved. I have to say, though, that I'm not sure you'd say, looking at a video of me as I cough, that my stomach is "out."
When I was at Temple, studying with Gigliotti and his "balloon" approach to breathing, I was also taking voice lessons from the chairman of the voice department. Guess what his main image was to explain breathing...
a tube of toothpaste.
Karl
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-06-17 00:20
I just found a copy of all three of Daniel Bonade's books for sale in one volume. I ordered a copy.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2021-06-17 00:39
SunnyDaze wrote:
> In Michelle Anderson's embouchure video she says I have to roll
> my lower lip over my lower teeth and pull it tight backwards,
> and then pull the skin on my chin downwards to make it flat.
> Then she says I have to pull the corners of my mouth in toward
> the clarinet.
>
> But if I do that then I am pulling loads of muscles really hard
> in many different directions and everything hurts.
>
> Just now, I tried just sticking the clarinet in my mouth,
> gathering my lips round the mp in a really tight ring, lifting
> my teeth off the top, and blowing. When I do that I only have
> to think about pulling the muscles in one direction, and that
> is to tighten that ring of muscle round the mp. It is much
> simpler, and it isn't making my muscles work against each
> other. My lower lip is still wrapped over the top of my lower
> teeth, but not pulled tight. My jaw isn't involved at all so
> there is no risk of TMD that I can see.
I think you were on a better track when you wrote:
> In the past I figured I was doing it right if the clarinet
> sounded nice. Now I need to find a balance that lets me play
> for a long time without injury, and that is a whole different
> thing,
IMO you're making all of this much too complicated, and it's because you're trying to satisfy too many other players' ideas of what to do. You're perfectly capable of evaluating the two conditions - quality of the result and comfort - without turning yourself into a contortionist to do what "they" say, no matter who "they" are.. The other condition is that your mouth shouldn't hurt. As I understand your original post, that was the part you were trying to address.
> Is that any good, or any I still not quite getting it?
>
Does it sound good? Are you feeling pain or stress anywhere? There's a difference, of course, between stress and engagement. You can't let things relax to the point of flaccidity, but if you're pressing anywhere to the point of pain, it's wrong. If you like the sound and response and you aren't feeling stress or pain, then you're probably fine, anyone else's instructions notwithstanding.
IMO you may be making all of this too complicated, because you're trying to satisfy too many other players' ideas of what to do. You're perfectly capable of evaluating the two conditions - quality of the result and comfort - without turning yourself into a contortionist to do what "they" say, no matter who "they" are.
> I tried blowing much harder too. Is the idea that if I blow
> much harder then I don't need to clamp the reed so hard?
>
No. If you blow harder, it comes out louder. If you want to play softer, you have to blow less hard than you do when you play loud. The goal still is to be engaged - in control - and not stressed. We don't really think much about the process of inhaling and exhaling, except when we take partially conscious control of it to play a wind instrument. The goal of exhaling to produce the sound is to produce a steady, controlled airstream. We can do this by maintaining firmness - contraction - of our abdominals. But it isn't an altogether conscious process, and you're better off listening to the result and evaluating it than focusing on the physicality of the activity.
Karl
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Author: Ken Lagace
Date: 2021-06-17 01:37
kdk;
>>If you blow harder, it comes out louder. If you want to play softer, you have to blow less hard than you do when you play loud.
Not always true. The 'less air' approach changes tone color as the sound gets softer.
The fine players like Harold Wright get gorgeous pianissimos by not changing the air speed, but closing the volume down with the embouchure.
I agree with finding how to get more basic skills first before working on advanced skills, like adapting tone color to the situation.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2021-06-17 01:49
Karl,
I'm pretty confident at this point that there is given method to creating the support required to produce a good sound in wind instruments. The only differences that exist are merely shades of that correct method.
Don't confuse singing with wind playing. We have to control a vibrating air column that exists outside the body.
The suggestion of the "cough" is merely to capture the feel in the gullet. Keeping your abdominals and diaphragm isometrically in opposition will out of necessity keep your gut out when you breath out. Saying, "keep your stomach out" is just easier to understand.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-06-17 01:49
Thank you for your thoughts Karl.
I'm going to take Ken and Paul's advice and see how it goes. I think it may take some time to work up the strength of my new "rubber band" but I will enjoy working on that.
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Author: BethGraham
Date: 2021-06-17 01:53
Yes, Jen, I learn a lot by reading all the voices here, too.
What I was getting at is that I, myself, have tied myself into knots several times over the past few years by trying to apply everything I've read and watched to my own development as a student. I've been guilty of overthinking nearly every aspect of learning to play this darned instrument. Sometimes, it's slowed down my progress.
As for my technique, let's just say I'm working on it. I'm not quite ready for Carnegie Hall yet.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-06-17 02:00
Thanks Beth.
I'm just working on getting shot of the pain in my jaw. Currently there is no way for me to play pain-free that makes an actual clarinet sound. Even the rubber band method hurts a lot. Maybe with practise though...
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-06-17 02:03
Paul, I get what you mean about the cough completely. I'm going to think about that in the coming weeks.
Ken - I understand about the business of closing down the reed while keep the airstream fast too. I will try that.
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Author: BethGraham
Date: 2021-06-17 02:26
That just sucks so much, Jen. I hope you can find a way to enjoy playing without aggravating your jaw.
I'm editing this to add -- and, mind you, I'm just thinking out loud here -- I wonder if saxophone would work better for you, with your jaw issues. I understand that the embouchure is a "looser" one.
Which reminds me, I really must start wearing my night splint again...!
Post Edited (2021-06-17 02:30)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-06-17 02:40
Hi Beth,
Thanks for thinking about it . I think I'm okay on clarinet.
I think I may be struggling particularly at the moment because I had 8 months off last year for covid infection and am coming back to very hard, longer tunes. I lost a lot of muscle mass on other parts of my body from covid, so I may be struggling with my embouchure too. I'm really not sure. It's seems plausible though.
Jen
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-06-17 10:29
Hi,
I just tried the new way of playing again this morning and I do think it is better, for not having jaw pain, which seems like an important thing.
I did the thing of just forming a ring of muscle round the mouthpiece, and then blowing harder and it does work. I think it will take a bit of work to get really used to it, but I think it's worth putting in the work now, rather then carry on biting and risk TMD further down the line.
I have to put my top teeth down on the mouthpiece to stabilise it when I go above A5, but that's all.
I tried sticking my abdomen out for the whole duration of the note to brace my air column, and I completely get why I would do that. However, at the moment doing that makes me light headed, so I might need to go easy on that.
I found the attached images in a book that was highly recommended on a recent thread, which confirms Paul and Ken's view of it. I like the idea of "a condition of perfect repose". My teacher always says "relax and let the air do the work", which I suppose is the same thing.
Adult learner, Grade 3
Equipment: Yamaha Custom CX Bb, Fobes 10K CF mp,
Legere Soprano Sax American Cut #2, Vandoren Optimum German Lig.
Post Edited (2021-06-17 10:37)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-06-17 13:50
Hi Peter,
Thanks for that. I will keep it in mind if I am still struggling after a few weeks of my new double lip trial.
Jen x
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2021-06-17 16:34
The Aurus 7 will work whether you play double lip or not. Worth investing in judging my the video links you’ve posted. It will help get you into a more comfortable angle.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2021-06-18 05:58
The OTHER reason for an angled mouthpiece (according to Mr. Behn) is that it allow for a larger tone chamber and the timbre that goes along with that (less overtones). He mentions that somewhat in "product info" under the G4 model.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: Floydinoz
Date: 2021-06-18 07:52
On the topic of breathing, there is a very informative article in Australian Clarinet and Saxophone magazine. Go to www.clarinet-saxophone.asn.au Look at the top of the first page, click on AC&S magazine articles. A list will come up, look for Arnold Jacobs, the Dynamics of Breathing. It’s a very clear explanation of his practical research into how breathing works in re to wind or brass instruments
Floyd
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-06-18 12:37
Hi Peter, I don't exactly understand how the Aurus 7 works. Would you be able to explain a bit?
Brad Behn's angled mouthpiece looks really interesting. Might be a bit out of my price range but it's great that he's considering that kind of thing.
Floyd - Thank you very much for that. I really like the way he includes childbirth as a part of the lesson, as though an assumed practical knowledge or experience of it is an advantage in understanding the subject. That is really nice. I will start thinking about moving air rather than creating pressure or moving muscles, and see where that takes me.
I also really like this book:
Multidisciplinary Approaches to Breathing Pattern Disorders 17 Jan. 2002 by Leon Chaitow ND DO (UK), Christopher Gilbert PhD, Dinah Bradley DipPhys NZRP MNZSP
It's about how the biochemistry of the body changes if we over-breath, and then again if we correct the overbreathing. As far as I can see, in musical terms, it's a really long detailed explanation of what can go wrong if we don't do our daily long tones, to bring everything back into equilibrium.
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The Clarinet Pages
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