 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-05-21 22:32
Hi,
I wondered if I could ask about how to avoid accidental grace notes when putting down two or more fingers at once to change note?
The problem is that the fingers don't quite arrive on the hole at the same time, so there is briefly another note being played in between.
I often get this happening, for example when going from F#5 to Eb5.
It is usually happening in cases where one finger goes down on a flat hole (as in the third finger of my right hand in this case) and one finger is going down on a key that has to move, as in the pinkie finger of my right hand in this case. I find that it is hard to time my fingers to come down so that the holes are covered at exactly the same moment, because one finger has to move a key, while the other just has to cover a hole.
Another example of it happening would be going from A5 to F#5. In this case it is because my left third finger goes on a flat hole, while my right second finger has to flatten down a metal ring before covering the hole.
I wondered whether I ought to have the moving metal parts adjusted so they don't have to travel so far to cover the hole, or whether I just need to train my fingers so that one starts earlier than the other in order to arrive at the same time.
My teacher says I've just to organise my fingers better, but they are not easy to organise.
Sorry, that was a bit complicated to explain.
Best wishes,
Jennifer
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2021-05-21 23:10
You need to work the intervals slowly with focused repetition so that your brain actually CAN "organize your fingers". Hand position is a big part of this. There are many ways to work this out and your teacher should be providing you with specific instructions on how to go about it. I really hope that "you need to organize your fingers" was not the full extent of his/her response! Perhaps this is something that will be addressed at your next lesson.
Anders
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2021-05-21 23:17
SunnyDaze wrote:
> The problem is that the fingers don't quite arrive on the hole
> at the same time, so there is briefly another note being played
> in between.
>
> I often get this happening, for example when going from F#5 to
> Eb5.
> ... I find
> that it is hard to time my fingers to come down so that the
> holes are covered at exactly the same moment,
>
> I wondered whether I ought to have the moving metal parts
> adjusted so they don't have to travel so far to cover the hole,
> or whether I just need to train my fingers so that one starts
> earlier than the other in order to arrive at the same time.
>
> My teacher says I've just to organise my fingers better, but
> they are not easy to organise.
It may have seemed complicated to explain, but we all know what you're describing.
The problem with teachers is they sometimes give pretty useless general advice without describing what they think you actually need to do. We all do that, too, at least occasionally if we're not being careful or focused on the problem.
You can make up exercises involving the problem intervals - you've mentioned two - and practice them slowly enough to feel what your fingers are doing. Sometimes you can feel what's going wrong and fix it directly.
Some of the most common problems I notice in my students when these stubborn extra notes happen are:
- their fingers are, overall, too tense
- one or the other finger starts from a neutral position that's much farther from its destination than the other(s). Some of my students hold their LH fingers straighter (despite my attempts to get them not to) than their RH fingers. So A5-F#5 doesn't coordinate because the F# finger travels farther than the G finger. Or, because the LH ring finger is generally weaker than the RH 2nd (B/F#) one, the RH finger arrives sooner.
- you don't have real control over your finger motion - sometimes the result of keeping the fingers too close, so the really limited range of motion interferes with control. This is usually my problem if I run into a repeating problem with this. For example, my RH ring finger, if I'm not paying attention, tends to sit almost on top of the hole, making F#5 to Eb5 an occasional headache. The solution for me, nonintuitively, goes away when I keep my fingers consciously slightly farther from the holes than some of them tend to be left on their own.
Of course, all of this is individual to the player and so needs to analyzed carefully for each case.
I think there are two main issues. (1) Your fingers have to have a feeling of deliberate engagement. (2) Your fingers need to be relaxed enough (still engaged, not flaccid, but not rigid) to react independently to the rhythmic context, not to each other. I have always felt that, for me, trying to coordinate individual fingers to each other is a lost cause. The problems for me are solved only when my fingers are all - individually - playing with rhythmic precision, if that makes sense.
Karl
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-05-21 23:17
Hi Anders,
Thanks I'll keep at it. My teacher doesn't have any specific suggestions.
Do you have a name for it when those accidental grace notes happen? It's one of my main failings, and it seems like there should be a name for it.
Thanks!
Jen
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-05-21 23:22
Hi Karl,
Thanks, yes that is really helpful. Thank you.
My teacher says my fingers are often too far away from the keys. I know that it is down to self-consciousness in me, so I'm going back to basics at the moment and working on getting my finger position right, just being very relaxed, calm and economical with my finger movements. I think that will help a lot.
I hadn't thought of co-ordinating my fingers individually to the music instead of each other. That's a really interesting idea.
Thank you :-)
Jen
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2021-05-21 23:24
I would wait on adjusting key heights unless the difference is necessary to adjust irregularities in pitch. You want to avoid causing one.
For me, first I'd say to not "over think" the rings being in the way. In fact I think you should not really be conscious of them being there at all. When it comes right down to it I think of each note only as a fingering combination. If anything the only conscious part of that that I attempt to analyze (from time to time) is to put the least amount of effort to close the hole or push the key that is necessary to get the note.
That said, here is where slow practice can help. So break it down between the two offending notes like the A5 to F#5. Play one as a long tone (like a slow four), STOP, then play the next as a long tone. Do that a few times, then play them like that without the stop but a good healthy articulation between them. Do that for awhile. Then try the slow four into the next note slow for as a slur.........and see how that sounds. The idea is to get your ear (mind) to hear the pure, ungraced transition from one note to the other. It's surprising how much a coordination issue is really just an issue of aural training. I used to always flub augmented fourth intervals until I realized that my ear didn't like that interval.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-05-21 23:35
Thanks Paul, I will try that.
I really like the terms "graced" and "ungraced" transitions and "flub". I will suggest those to my teacher as terms for this. :-)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2021-05-22 00:52
There's one other thing I should have mentioned in conjunction with having your fingers relaxed. When I run into this kind of problem, it's always in a specific musical context. I nearly always find that something before the problem spot has has gotten my fingers tensed up, causing the "flub." I have to go back and get the preceding, problem-causing intervals relaxed first.
So, getting those two intervals you mentioned (and any others) under control separately is one step, but being comfortable with them in a musical context sometimes takes a little extra detective work.
Karl
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Author: BethGraham
Date: 2021-05-22 00:58
SunnyDaze wrote:
"Do you have a name for it when those accidental grace notes happen? It's one of my main failings, and it seems like there should be a name for it"
I've been calling it "slurpiness," and it's been the bane of my existence lately. My teacher has been providing concrete techniques and practice strategies, though, that should help over time.
I can't remember if you mentioned before what your teacher's main instruments are. It seems like she should be giving you specific help with this. I don't mean this as a criticism of your teacher, but if clarinet isn't one of her main instruments, it could be that she doesn't have the expertise to help you.
I like the term "accidental grace notes."
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Author: brycon
Date: 2021-05-22 01:34
Something to try for F# to Eb:
Put your right-hand palm down on a table top and shape your fingers as though you're typing on a keyboard, playing piano, or playing clarinet (that is, your palm and fingertip pads touch the surface of the table). While you keep your middle finger and thumb down on the table, lift and then lower the other three fingers. Do they go back down and "hit" the table as a unit or do some lag behind or move ahead of others?
Finger coordination issues arise for a number of reasons; two of the main ones are motion and rhythm. As you lift and lower your fingers on the table top, see if the fingers all move from the same point of the hand (should be the large knuckle) or if some straighten out from the middle of the finger. See if they all travel up to a similar height or if some stay closer to the table or move farther away.
Next, see if there's a rhythm to the fingers moving or if you just lift and lower them at random. Count to yourself: "up and down and up and down." And then feel that sense of periodicity in the fingers moving, as though you're a drummer hitting the table in a unison rhythm, without any flams.
If you can do this exercise, then try moving your fingers the same way on the lower joint of the clarinet. A lot of people overthink the clarinet: "my teacher said my hand position has to be x" or "famous player y said to keep my fingers close to the clarinet" and so on. Instead, feel the rhythmicity of those three fingers going up and down ("up and down and up and down"), hitting the clarinet in unison rhythm, as they move from the knuckle. The final step is simply to blow air through the clarinet.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2021-05-22 10:02
I call these "in-between notes" and here's how I approach getting rid of them:
1. Identify what is happening. For F# to Eb you need fingers 1, 3 and 4 to land in their respective places at the same time. If you observe carefully, you should be able to discover which fingers are landing before others.
2. Practice the opposite mistake. Let's say in the F# to Eb example that you notice that fingers 1 and 3 land before finger 4 (producing the in-between note D). Now practice deliberately putting down finger 4 before fingers 1 and 3. This produces a slightly sharp F# before the Eb comes.
3. Alternate between the opposite mistake and the original mistake. In other words you play 4 ... 3+1, and then 3+1 ... 4. Then try to make the gaps between then shorter and shorter, something like this:
4 ... 3+1, 3+1 ... 4
4 .. 3+1, 3+1 .. 4
4 . 3+1, 3+1 . 4
Until eventually you play 1+3+4 simultaneously. I find that if I can deliberately control the mistake and it's opposite, then I can also consistently play without the in-between notes. You obviously have to adapt this exercise to whatever you discover is happening with your own fingers in step 1 above.
Hope it helps!
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-05-22 11:26
Hi Brycon,
Thanks, yes, that is exactly my problem. Those three fingers are just now ones that I have really used a lot before and so I don't have really find control over them. I have reconfigured my computer mouse so I do my main click with the fourth finger of my right hand and that is helping a lot. I do think I just need to really get control of those fingers though. I'm a fantastically speedy touch typist, with both hands, but somehow that doesn't seem to be enough. I'll try that exercise.
Karl - Yes I can completely see what you mean. I think that for me, the tension is because I am playing difficult music without having my fundementals really solid. I'm doing a lot more work on slow scales and things just now to try to get to feel relaxed on the instrument, and to have fluid relaxed movements with my fingers.
Beth - My teacher is absolutely fine thanks. He has a degree in clarinet playing and a PhD in music. I think it's good to come here and get different points of view though. I mean it seems silly to have access to the whole world's view, and only ask my nearest neighbour.
Thanks Liquorice - that's what I've been doing and it is gradually working. I'll keep at it.
Thank you all very much for these tips. It's so great to have different ideas to try and extremey therapeutic to chat about it with people who've been there.
I'll try all these things and hopefully start get some progress on it. :-)
Adult learner, Grade 3
Equipment: Yamaha Custom CX Bb, Fobes 10K CF mp,
Legere Soprano Sax American Cut #2, Vandoren Optimum German Lig.
Post Edited (2021-05-22 14:22)
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2021-05-22 15:56
Sometimes problems like this can be caused by imbalance in the strength of the springs. A spring which is too heavy can delay the start of a note to the point where it becomes a problem. I always adjust the springs on my instruments to where they are just strong enough to perform their function.
Tony F.
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Author: Ken Lagace
Date: 2021-05-22 16:06
Jennifer, I have a slightly different approach that has worked nicely for my students.
If you put your palm on a table and 'roll' your fingers, it is natural for the index to touch the table first, then 2, 3, and pinky to come down in that order.
If your fingers close holes that way on a wind instrument, you will be playing down a scale. Most 'blips' I call them, happen when fingers move naturally, but not if they come down un-naturally with the lower fingers hitting first.
For instance, C4 down to G3, naturally - C4, Bb3, A3, G3, is a scale pattern.
But if the G3 finger is first, then the A3, the sound is changing, but the pitch doesn't change until the Bb finger closes.
Yes, practice bad intervals slowly, but make sure the lower fingers hit a hole slightly earlier than the upper finger(s).
You can also practice 'rolling' your fingers on a table backwards, little finger 1st etc. Rolling both hands backward at once is really fun to master, and a way to feel a better finger movement in troublesome intervals. You can also amaze your friends that you can do something that they might have trouble with.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-05-22 20:01
Hi Ken,
Thank you, that's really helpful. I had sort of started to reach that conclusion and was wondering if it was permissable to activate my pinkie finger and middle finger a bit earlier than the others.
I've noticed that if I'm going to go wrong, it's better to be ahead at the bottom of the instrument than the top. My teacher said ideally it would be better if I don't go wrong, but that is easier said than done. I might try just try leading with the lower fingers and see if that works.
btw, does anybody know where Bob Bernardo went? I haven't seen him on here for ages.
Thanks!
Jen
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2021-05-22 22:12
Jennifer, My word for those extra notes is "slop". It is a problem we all have occasionally. I have an old record of a well-known symphony clarinetist playing a solo during a symphonic work where HE had a bit of "slop" on one note.
There is no magic way to avoid this forever, but as some have suggested, the more you practice the better it gets. As mentioned, one time it may occur is when both a hole and a key must go down at the same time. Even a more likely time can be when you're going from a note to another that involves opening or closing holes on both hands at the same time. A good exercise for that is starting on low F and going up & down 2 octaves on the D minor arpeggio. Especially good for going from low A to the D just below the staff.
There are several short exercises in my book that deal with "slop". But honestly, any practice at all in any book is the answer. Or solos, whatever.
It's also just as good to make stuff up that could create slop and do those a million times. Sometimes I even practice hitting the key minutely before closing the hole. Can't have slop there.
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
Post Edited (2021-05-22 22:15)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-05-22 23:18
Hi Tom,
Thank you very much for that. Your advice makes perfect sense to me and I will try it. I do have your book too, so I will try some of the exercises.
Best wishes,
Jennifer
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2021-05-23 01:27
Jennifer, Thanks for getting the book. Best exercises for this would be #s 6, 8, 35, & 36.
Another thing I like to mention is I think the ring finger is less flexible than the others (or at least it seems so). I like to play exercises using the right hand ring finger to play low B or top line F#-- the flute fingering. You would rarely use this when performing, but it does give that finger a separate workout. I use it for those two notes on long notes when playing concerts. I find it gives a more mellow sound.
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
Post Edited (2021-05-23 05:31)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-05-24 17:03
Hi Tom,
Thank you very much. I really agree that the ring finger does not seem to be nearly so well wired up. I'm trying to get it to liven up in all sorts of ways, but I think it may have been mostly decorative up to now.
If you ever feel like writing another clarinet book, I think there is a definite gap in the market for the real beginner stuff. Basically a book aimed at someone who found a clarinet in the attic and doesn't have money for lessons.
That was how I started, and there is no book out there that says, for example "The reed is disposable - do not use the 40 year old mouldy one in the case." There's an absolute ton of information that is just completely missing from all the books.
Given the number of clarinet-shaped objects that are for sale on ebay, and probably virtually unplayable, and yet very accessible cost-wise, I think there would be a big market for a book like that.
Jen
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2021-05-25 05:56
Jen, You may have a very good point. I taught school Band for 19 years, many of them doing beginners. I belong to a Band Directors Facebook group and we talk about beginning books at times. My usual mantra is that it doesn't matter very much which method you use-- they all teach the same stuff. Notes, theory, well, you know. I'm done with writing stuff, but you may be interested in writing a beginner book that teaches more than the nuts & bolts.
When I was in 4th grade (1964) I had a very good private teacher. He used "Foundation to Clarinet Playing". A great book (in verrrry long hindsight) for a little kid & private lessons. I still have it. But as you said, nothing in it about reeds, etc. Well, much of that stuff is taught by private teachers, but not all kids have access to that and simply play in Band.
Do send me an email. I can explain more about the book, why it stresses this or that, etc. Try bending the ring finger back-- hurts more than the others....
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-05-25 11:09
Hi Tom,
Thanks, I have found that book secondhand online and bought a copy. It does look interesting.
I like your idea about trying to write a book myself. I might have a little go at starting it today. I've been looking for a healthier alternative to what my husband calls "doom scrolling" (looking at the bad news online) and writing a clarinet book would be a good thing to do for that, even if no one published it. :-) Thanks for the thought.
I also see what you mean about the ring finger. It does hurt more when I bend it back.
I'm going to aim the book squarely at people who've just bought a £30 clarinet off ebay and who want to play a tune without ever needing to know what the register key is. I'll see how far I get.
Best wishes,
Jennifer
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Author: ACCA
Date: 2021-05-25 17:56
"Do you have a name for it when those accidental grace notes happen?"
I do now!
Appologgiatura
sorry, couldn't resist! ;-)
Stay well, play well!
best wishes
a.
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2021-05-26 00:57
Jen, You can self-publish, which may run like $800+, but you have to do all the marketing yourself. Let us know your progress.
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-05-27 13:50
Hi Tom,
I realised that the little that I can contribute to clarinet literature is probably more of a blog post then a book, so I wrote it here:
https://lovelyoldclarinet.blogspot.com/2021/05/and-now-i-am-going-to-play-it.html
It's just a help guide for people who have found a really ratty old clarinet in the cupboard, who want to play it, and who have no budget whatsoever for repairs.
Our family clarinet was in that position for literally 60 years before I finally figured out how to get it to play. I thought it might be good to write a rescue guide for another clarinets that are in the same situation.
I would be really glad to know what you think, if you had a minute to look.
Jen
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