 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: smill01
Date: 2021-05-18 11:25
I've been experimenting a bit with a double lip embouchure, and have a question on the amount of upper lip that players roll under. I can roll a small amount - the lip there is thin and it's painful. Or I can roll up in to the muscular band that runs across the lip - much thicker and less painful.
Anyone have any thoughts on any disadvantages of using the thicker section of the lip?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2021-05-18 19:51
My feeling is that is should be a practical amount of upper lip that is easy to maintain in place.
That said, the most important component is to have a set up AND an approach that does not build up enough force to cause any sort of significant discomfort. I had used double lip for several years in school but always felt discomfort, particularly in the upper clarion. Now, many many years later I have found a much easier approach and can actually slip in and out of a double lip (with the "double lip" being more of a upper toothless sort of pursing of the lips).
If it causes you pain, I would say don't do it.
..................Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2021-05-18 21:26
I put my teeth just barely into the thicker part. When I switched from single-lip to double, my upper lip hurt at least somewhat for about a year, especially if upper clarion was needed, and if standing up was necessary. I put up with it, and it got less sensitive over time. Now there's a calloused area inside my upper lip where my teeth contact, similar to the one inside my lower lip.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Matt74
Date: 2021-05-18 21:27
I can't do double lip. I find it extremely uncomfortable (aka "unbearably painful").
I have to really stretch my lip, it will not roll under. It hurts my lip, and I have to open absurdly wide to make room for all the extra padding. It feels very unnatural and awkward to me. Everything is in the wrong place. I also have a tiny "gap" between my front teeth, not enough to be visible, but the vertical band on my lip inevitably gets jammed in there. I'm not sure it works for everyone.
- Matthew Simington
Post Edited (2021-05-18 21:28)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: kdk
Date: 2021-05-18 21:40
smill01 wrote:
> Anyone have any thoughts on any disadvantages of using the
> thicker section of the lip?
As with so many other clarinet questions about "how to" or "how should I," I think this answer depends on the player's unique mouth/lip anatomy.
When I was a student, Gigliotti, who introduced me to double lip, told me to take about the same amounts of lower and upper lip over my teeth. A couple of years earlier, while I was playing in the Army Field Band and before I had made the switch, I took a lesson at Catholic U with Harold Wright, who told me that only a "thin membrane" of the upper lip should be taken over the top teeth. Wright, of course, played full time as a DL player. Gigliotti's experience was, AFAIK, limited to checking that the upper lip of his single lip embouchure mimicked the muscular actions of true double lip.
The point is that, if it sounds good and allows you to maintain control over dynamics and response, it isn't really important whether you take X or Y amount of lip over your top teeth. Find your best, most comfortable spot (judged by both comfort and musical result) and practice with it to get used to it.
Karl
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ed
Date: 2021-05-18 22:22
I would say the red portion of the lip should be rolled over the teeth, but to try to avoid more than that.
Post Edited (2021-05-19 03:51)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JasonOlney
Date: 2021-05-18 22:51
For my part, I use double lip extensively while working on tone and voicing. If it hurts, then you are likely overusing your jaw. I tell my students to focus on using the meat, not the bone, for best tone.
I only have a small sliver of upper lip and use my knees and a neckstrap for additional support. The more I focus on the structure of my embouchure and my tongue position, the less pain I feel in the upper lip.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2021-05-18 23:22
Caveat: My normal embouchure is single-lip.
I do play double-lip from time to time, but I always find myself gravitating back to single lip.
Having said that, (depending on your physical attributes) you might find that the easiest way to convert to double-lip embouchure is to begin by not putting any lip between your teeth and the mouthpiece...but just use your lip alone, with your teeth right behind it for support.
You might also try spinning your mouthpiece around so that the reed is facing away from you. Keep it that way only until you can play a scale or two in reasonable balance (should only take a few tries). The angle/embouchure will most likely be less than optimal, but it might help give you the idea of how much pressure is required for your upper lip - it isn't much.
I don't feel any pain (or even pressure) when I do play double-lip - though I think that I would (as Philip mentioned) gain a calloused area inside my upper lip were I to continue using the emboucher regularly.
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2021-05-19 01:09
It isn't for everyone. As I recall, Tony Pay has written here that he also found double-lip unworkable due to his pertaining physical dimensions. For me it felt perfectly natural to play that way, despite some discomfort earlier in my development.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: kdk
Date: 2021-05-19 02:16
JasonOlney wrote:
> I only have a small sliver of upper lip and use my knees and a
> neckstrap for additional support.
This makes a lot of difference. For those players who heroically insist that you should practice double lip standing with only standard right thumb support (e.g. Ralph McLane, I think), playing DL is bound to cause pain until a callous has formed. Most DL players I know (e.g. Harold Wright) do most or (by choice) all of their playing sitting and support the clarinet most often by resting the bell on one knee.
Some purists don't like that.
To smill01, do you practice sitting or standing?
Karl
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ed
Date: 2021-05-19 03:55
FWIW- Richard Stoltzman played double standing as a soloist over his long career
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: nellsonic
Date: 2021-05-19 07:58
I have plenty of students who do high school marching band playing double lip, with minimal lip over the teeth. It doesn't cause them any discomfort. Most people can play double lip just fine if they start that way or build up to it very gradually. There are some whose lip is too short and/or teeth are too long to accommodate it.
Anders
Post Edited (2021-05-19 08:10)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: kdk
Date: 2021-05-19 20:08
nellsonic wrote:
> I have plenty of students who do high school marching band
> playing double lip, with minimal lip over the teeth. It
> doesn't cause them any discomfort.
Of course, many kids don't know when they're hurting themselves. A kids, we mostly complained when the pain (physical or mental) was caused by something we didn't want to do. We didn't pay so much attention when it was a chosen activity.
> Most people can play double
> lip just fine if they start that way or build up to it very
> gradually.
Yes. In some areas of the world most people did or still do. But most clarinetists who learn as beginners in the U.S. or possibly anywhere in the Americas don't start out with DL. The kids I've taught who played DL did it on their own as beginners without instruction from anyone because they didn't like the sensations of having their upper teeth on the mouthpiece. So, you're right, but few established SL players are patient or motivated enough to build DL gradually - it's easier for most to fall back to SL.
> There are some whose lip is too short and/or teeth
> are too long to accommodate it.
Apparently, yes. Tony Pay has said so here. Gigliotti said much the same thing in an interview I remember reading years ago, maybe in The Clarinet. And Ricardo Morales says in one of his videos something to the effect that, while he suspects DL is a better approach, he has never had the time without playing obligations to develop it for himself. Especially since he does just fine with single lip.
To the OP, if you want to try the DL approach, find a comfortable spot for your upper lip - don't try to follow a rule that someone has laid down - and work at it at first for very short periods of time - 5 minutes or a little more, stopping before you're experiencing real pain. Build the time gradually, never going to the point of severe soreness. I think Fuzzy's suggestion works well - do some of your early DL playing with just the upper lip controlling the mouthpiece - keep the teeth off the beak entirely.
Karl
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ken Lagace
Date: 2021-05-22 16:14
Pain comes from biting, and the benefit of double lip is to learn to use other muscles to make a sound. Use single lip, but lift the upper teeth so they don't touch the mouthpiece. You will discover the proper muscles that need to be working more. Opperman always said, "always stop playing double lip before it starts to hurt", and we always had a chuckle after he said that.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: kdk
Date: 2021-05-22 21:11
Ken Lagace wrote:
> Pain comes from biting,...
Not necessarily. Pain can come as the instrument rotates on the fulcrum of the lower lip/teeth. The instrument (bell) drops, controlled by the R thumb, and the mouthpiece presses upward against whatever is supporting it - the upper lip, the upper teeth (SL) or a combination of both ( normal DL). One reason so many DL players play seated with the clarinet's bell supported in one way or another is to minimize the rotational pressure.
> ...and the benefit of double lip is to
> learn to use other muscles to make a sound. Use single lip, but
> lift the upper teeth so they don't touch the mouthpiece. You
> will discover the proper muscles that need to be working more.
> Opperman always said, "always stop playing double lip before it
> starts to hurt", and we always had a chuckle after he said
> that.
No argument from me with any of the rest of this. I just hate to see pain blamed solely on biting.
Karl
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Matt74
Date: 2021-05-23 04:02
Attachment: 06A813E7-1CA9-4ED3-BDA0-1C76AF88482B.jpeg (25k)
I agree. I wasn’t thinking of “biting” when I said “painful”.
It’s not jaw pressure at all. I find it uncomfortable to roll my top lip under my teeth - it takes a fair amount of tension and stretch to keep it there. I have to make a face like “The Joker” (or a giant fish). I can’t form my natural embouchure at the same time. There’s no natural place for my teeth to rest. They just skid around and want to fall off, grinding on the muscles. There is no way to hold the lip in place without putting the muscle in there. And, like I said, I have to open too wide, and everything gets out of place and awkward. It makes everything harder and more uncomfortable for me. So, I don’t think it will work for everyone.
When I read posts, or see videos about it, it’s kind of like watching Jim Carrey put his elbow behind his head. My elbow doesn’t go there. It obviously works for him, but not me!
- Matthew Simington
Post Edited (2021-05-23 04:04)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2021-05-23 14:21
DL or SL:
‘Biting’ occurs when you use your upper teeth and lower teeth, via your jaw muscles, to exert pressure on the reed and mouthpiece. This is how a pair of pliers works. It limits the rôle of the lower lip muscle, reducing it to an inert covering of the lower teeth.
But if you use your upper and lower teeth like a wrench (which resists both being opened and being closed), then instead you create a fixed support, and allow your lower lip the freedom to act on the reed to modulate the sound of the clarinet.
Tony
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
