 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: jan
Date: 2001-07-13 14:26
i currently own a 7 month old selmer signature. altho i chose it over 6 other clarinets i tried, ive never been quite happy with it. i thot it was a matter of finding the right mouthpiece to go with it. i have tried a ton including 5 gregory smith ones and im still not happy.
the only way i was able to afford this clarinet was when my father who i work for, gave me a loan thru his company as a reward for working hard last christmas season.
i would really like to try out the leblanc opus and i would like to know what other people think of it. but im almost afraid to try it becuz if i like it i will be in a dilemma .....i would only get back 60% of the cost of the selmer and the opus cost more......im afraid he will be mad that i am not happy with the clarinet i chose only 7 months ago...
should i stay with what i have to please him since he gave me the loan to get it, or should i go ahead and try the opus and then try to increase the loan so i can get it if i am more satisfied with it??
jan
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2001-07-13 16:11
Jan -
Why are unhappy with your Signature? Tone? Intonation? Response? Too much resistance? Too little? You have to give us something to go on.
Why do you think the Opus will be better than the Signature? What do you expect to be different about it? I've played them both and found them to be similar in tone and response.
Before you give up on the Signature, you should have it checked for leaks. Even small ones can really mess up the way an instrument plays, and new instruments tend to develop leaks as they "play in." Seven months is just about right to take yours in for its "20,000 note checkup."
You should try a new barrel. I'm reasonably sure Guy Chadash can make a barrel for the Signature, and Greg Smith also supplies barrels. It would be worthwhile to get in touch with one or both of them, describe your problems and ask what they recommend.
Also, Greg Smith's mouthpieces are great for advanced players, but some of his models are unforgiving for intermediate players. I have no idea of how you play, but you might want to get in touch with Greg to discuss the matter and ask if he has something that suits your way of playing better.
Every mouthpiece maker wants to make something that lets you play your best. I've gotten a number of handmade mouthpieces over the years, and by far the best way to do this is to sit on the other side of the maker's workbench and let him (as far as I know, they're all men) match the mouthpiece and barrel to your own clarinet and your particular embouchure, reed preference and way of blowing.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Ken
Date: 2001-07-13 17:11
LOLOL, the Dad in me is really coming out today...I get the biggest kick from these types of posts. It warmly redeems my faith in today's youth and helps me better understand and appreciate my own teenagers. So, the question is, why didn't you play test an Opus in the first place before settling on your Sig? Were you not familiar with the Opus line or maybe you were but didn't bother because it was financially beyond your reach? What about you or your Sig has changed in 7 months that you were cool with it at first but not now? Without going into painstaking detail, and yes debatable, the Opus is a superior horn to the Selmer Sig, that is, a higher quality made instrument. If you're already at an intermediate-advanced skill level and play test an Opus you'll immediately be able to tell the difference and then you run the risk of becoming even more dissatisfied with your Sig. In short, why torture yourself? If your Sig isn't defective and feel you haven't outgrown it why switch so soon? You already own and play a fine entry-level pro-line horn. All Clarinets of any quality and age depreciate in value and rarely go up in value unless they're costumed out and/or previously owned famous players and exchange hands over the years. Matter of fact, a selected few brands of mouthpieces increase in value although mostly marketing hype.
Selling your horn now with a lien on it can get quite costly. Where on earth did you come up with only a 60% re-sale value on your Selmer, it's not a new car! Are you comparing the depreciation on the horn's retail value or what you paid for it? Sounds to me like an arbitrary quote from the vendor or individual you bought it from. If you purchased at a retail store, that's the absolute last place you want to sell your horn back to unless they're willing to cut you an attractive deal on a swap/trade-up to a new Opus. If you insist on a cash sale, there's no reason with a little patience and luck you can't sell your horn for closer to what you paid for it and take a smaller loss. Remember, the offset if any from your out-of-pocket cost and retail value is already profit; you can't lose money you never had! Also, if your current loan is based on simple interest you can save on accrued interest charges as opposed to completing full term of the loan by paying it off NOW and not add to the existing loan. Close out the old loan first then start a new one otherwise you're in effect just piling interest on top of interest. The difference between the re-sale price of the horn and "payoff" balance will also have to be made. Depending on the current payoff (only 7 months) you then might take "two baths" on the re-sale of the horn.
Your concern for your Father is admirable. You’ll have to make a personal choice that only YOU can make and weigh the cost of your relationship versus business, and it sounds like Dad's a co-signer on your loan...hehe. If it was me, and there's even a doubt in your mind as to his reaction I wouldn't run the risk of hurting his feelings and/or upsetting him. Consider keeping your horn for another year, practice harder and keep improving. When he then hears your progress with his own ears he might be willing to help you step-up to a higher quality horn and support re-financing or new loan.
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Author: jan
Date: 2001-07-13 18:14
oh gosh, i didnt explain things quite enough in my first post did i.
ok, i am at a high intermediate to advanced level. my first clarinet was a plastic vito which i used for 8 years before getting a Buffet R13. i left the world of music 3 yrs later for what i thot would be forever, and put the clarinet in storage - never expecting to pick it back up again. well, 12 yrs later i did. but it was ruined. i used it with pinned cracks and a repadding for a couple years but it never played like it once had and i often mentioned i wanted a new one.
so last year when i became very involved...taking lessons, joined a band & cl.choir, teach beginners, my father offered me the money to buy a new clarinet as a loan. this was a loan from the bank of dad, not from a bank bank. i work for my dad and the amount to pay him back comes directly out of my paycheck every week.
i had planned on getting a new Buffet R13 (either reg or the greenline) but the selmers werent THAT much more so decided to try them too. they all seemed to play the same but i liked the selmer better than the Buffets because of how it felt in my hands. it just seemed to fit. my dad said it was ok if i wanted that one. i had noticed the opus which was a lot more $ and decided he was already doing me a favor so i shouldnt ask for more. which is why i didnt test the opus in the first place.
what has changed in the 7 months....well, nothing.....i was fairly pleased in the beginning as it was a whole lot better than my old Buffet, but i wasnt extremely pleased and thot it was a matter of finding the right mouthpiece and letting it break in. i have talked to gregory smith who sent me 5 m.p's to try but none seemed that much better than my 5RV lyre Vandy.
i didnt realize the selmer signature was an entry level pro-line. the woodwind brasswind co. have it as the top of the line selmer series and also it was them who told me they would give me back 60% of what i paid for it if i returned it in the first year.
ken: i am trying to think of exactly what i am not happy with. its hard to explain since it is subtle things. the Bb that sounds bad to begin with, seems to be really really airy as well as the throat A. the high F & F# ( top of the staff line) is very resistent compared to the other notes...but i would have to say the main thing is the water that stays in the tone holes. it happens about 5 minutes after i start playing...i swab it out frquently, i use the little cigarett papers, and the sound is still gurgly and grainy. i know i am not sending excess water thru. the sound should be crisp and clear. i can play an open G and hear subtle noises.....all in all, the clarinet is not producing pure tones which i feel i am capable of thru my embouchure and breath support.
would it be of any help to me if i sent you my horn to try??? heck, maybe its just me but ive been struggling with that idea for awhile now and i really think its the horn.
please any more advice would be greatly appreciated!
thank You
jan
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Author: bob gardner
Date: 2001-07-13 18:46
I think we are all searching for the perfect horn. I had a Opus and didn't care for it. Traded in for a Buffet Festial which I like very much. i also had a old lablanc Symphony. which i sold a couple of months ago. Sorry i sold it. it was really an outstanding horn.
i guess the bottom line is that we all want the perfect horn and it is like the search for the holy grill.
Enjoy the search. it can cost mega-bucks
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-07-13 18:58
Selmer Signature is a premium professional-level clarinet. It is not "a fine entry-level pro-line horn". It is a fine pro horn. There are OTHER Selmer clarinet models which come closer to the definition of entry-level pro horn". Go to the Selmer website & see what published there. Best, mw
PS Bob, what kind of barbecue sauce do you use? That must be the secret! : )
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Author: Phil Smallwood
Date: 2001-07-13 22:44
I wonder what Brenda has to say about this topic? Brenda can you offer any insight. Also, Jan what's your e-mail address?
Phil
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Author: jan
Date: 2001-07-13 23:22
my email addy is gonzo-@ix.netcom.com
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Author: Ken
Date: 2001-07-14 01:32
Jan, as you can see the outstanding people who post here and share their time and talent are among the finest you'll ever meet. From the youngest beginner assembling their axe the first time, mentors such as Allen Cole and Ken Shaw, Webmaster Mark Charette to our most celebrated senior enthusiasts. Whether amateur or professional, they are all knowledgeable, fiercely devoted to their music and chosen craft and at the ready aiding fellow clarinetists with any question or concern in every conceivable topic and idiom.
To begin, you are well aware within reason, you shouldn't be experiencing the kind of stuffiness and air stream obstruction you're describing. However, any Boehm system horn regardless of quality and price has its natural characteristics and limitations. For instance, the throat Bb and As mentioned are inherently bad notes, airy and flat/sharp. Outside of customizing they require help with alternate fingerings to improve pitch, clarity and speak properly. Ken Shaw, our resident genius is correct on the 20K note check up. At the skill level you're at it sounds more like a snag with the horn and NOT necessarily your setup or application. You might have developed a leak or two, maybe isolated swelled pads and a re-seed is in order. There's a remote chance of an inner crack or slight warpage internally around one of the tone holes causing the stuffed rag affect but also promoting water build-up. Far-fetched at best, if a new horn is going to crack at all it'll split within the first year unless you routinely expose it to inordinate climate changes and/or air travel...there are always exceptions. As far as Niagara Falls, the natural grain pattern inside the bore itself could be the culprit. A quick swab from top to bottom isn't always enough. Some of the water build up is already lodged in the tone hole outer wall itself saturating the pad and requiring a manual blow out. Not just a quick blast from the outside but from inside out. To emit it, try swabbing twice/thrice, take your horn apart, put the top of the upper joint over your mouth and stop up the bottom hole with a finger. Cover the tone holes with your left hand like you’re playing a chalumeau C; create good suction and pop open the keys. You can also apply forward pressure, blow and open the keys but go lightly doing it this way, too much pressure could cause another leak. Repairmen, Tim Clark and Mike Hammer have perfected a method of gently engraving indentations away from the upper joint teardrop keys and right-side cluster. If you’re going to keep this horn and paly/practive more than 10-15 hours a week I'd consider getting the whole upper joint cork padded; that will help cut down on water blockage.
I've only purchased horns from Bill/Linda Brannen and Leonard Zopf so I can't speak personally for ww/bw but I know many that have done business with them. Overall, they have a good industry reputation on all their products; quality, customer satisfaction, service and they stand behind what they sell. They routinely prep and play test new horns before selling them. If you purchased the horn from ww/bw in the US you're entitled to the warranty as well as factory warranty in defective workmanship from Selmer Corp. I'd strongly recommend while the warranty is still valid pay the one-way shipping charge to ww/bw and let them give it the once over. Also, (this will no doubt invite controversy and ethics dispute) it's entirely up to you how you conduct business, but considering it's only 7 months old and provided you've strictly followed Selmer’s' guidelines of proper break-in/maintenance that came with the horn, as well as in good conscience never neglected, damaged or abused it I'd tell them you've had the problem all along. I'm not suggesting you be dishonest but the fact is you/your Dad paid "good money" for that horn and entitled to an equitable return on your dollar and full coverage. You shouldn't be experiencing these kinds of problems at this point in its young life. When they get it on the bench the repairperson will be able to identify a warranty claim or normal wear and tear you need to pay for. Get it back and play on it for at least two weeks before springing for the upgrade.
I stand corrected from my first post on the Selmer Signature. That model horn IS advertised as a premium grade horn, an Opus/Prestige parallel, but to ME it plays more like a bad Artely, Normandy or off the rack R-13. As always, the best horn is an individual choice based on musical background, skill level, breadth of experience, teacher influence, education and training, job requirement/professional need or just plain god-given talent and instinct. The absolute Best! KEN <:-)
Fundamental alternate throat Bb and fingerings:
Standard Bb fingering plus 0 0 X | 0 0 X | right lower cluster middle C right pinky key. Middle C pinky key will flatten note, compensate with upper joint right-side Eb/Bb key.
Standard A fingering, left index finger only plus 0 X X | 0 0 X | right cluster, middle C right pinky key.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-07-14 14:34
I think the Opus is a magnificent clarinet. There's nothing in the world that sounds like one. They are very expensive ($3,300.00 at a discount catalogue), but have such great intonation and powerful sound. And, if you find one with good key action and beautiful wood--that's a great bonus. Key action can be "balanced" by skilled technicians--but if you're a student and hoping Dad won't be mad, you might have a hard time getting him to spend extra for that.
But, for a young player, I don't recommend going that far up in the dollar range. You don't really need the Opus unless you're going to be playing college or pro level stuff and you have or want to spend the money for one. For now I would get a good mouthpiece/ligature/barrel set up and save my money for an Opus. Actually, by the time you're ready you might decide you want something different.
But, I agree about the Selmer Signature--I tried several of them and really didn't like them at all. I couldn't get any volume and the tone was thin. You might could sell it.
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Author: William
Date: 2001-07-14 14:46
Just a short perspective from and "elder" enthusiast: I tested two Selmer Signitures, one which I liked very much and took to a rehearsal for further trial. What I like about the Selmer Sigs was their eveness of scale and intonation--much like the LeBlanc Opus and Concertos. But unlike the LeBlancs, the Selmers low E & F were not flat, and the above-the-staff, high Eb and F# were also right on pitch (LeBlancs are also flat). But when I played the Selmer in rehearsal, it seemed quite inflexable with the sound holding it focus only at forte levels of volume. Its intonation remained impeccable, but, because of the inconsistant sound, it did not perform musically or expressively--it seemed quite inflexable in this important area. My Concertos (the accoustical twins to the Opus) even with their inherant intonation problems, are even in scale from top to bottom and maintain their tonal focus from loud to soft allowing me complete freedom of expression and nuance in whatever I play, from the classic to jazz. So, I guess my vote is for you to go ahead and try the Opus but like all clarinets, be certain that it is set-up properly by your repair tech and try more than one. If money is a concern, the Concerto costs about a $1,000 less and, since it is accoustically the twin of the Opus, it will play and sound the same. As a former R-13 player, I like the way my (thumbs up) Concertos play "on the job" and have tried--but did not like--the (one thumb up, one down) Selmer Signiture. ( To further "muddy" the "waters" of choice, if money is no issue with your family, you should try the (both thumbs WAY up) Rossi clarinets. They are expensive, but play soooooo nice. If I could afford to switch, I would. But maybe, the musical "grass" just currently seems greener in the Rossi pasture.) Good luck with your choice, and Good Clarineting!!!!
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-07-14 17:47
Well, not to get back into the Concerto vs. Opus argument, the Opus does not sound like the Concerto. The dimensions of the bore are the same, but the Opus has a more powerful sound. The wood is slightly different on the Opus. The Opus is a more superior instrument in every way. I won't even go into how many I've played side by side--not to mention how many I've owned.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-07-14 20:29
But Brenda - you keep bringing it up! 8^) The designer of theLeblanc Millenium edition told me personally there was absolutely no difference except in the wood, and besides being a designer he's also a very well-known teacher, soloist, and mouthpiece maker. I guess your mileage did vary ...
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Author: William
Date: 2001-07-15 01:57
Brenda--The designer of the Opus/Concerto line of clarinets told me personally, during one of many visits to the LeBlanc facility in Kenosha, Wi, that they all are created from "the same woodpile"--meaning that the same wood is used to produce both lines of clarinet. The difference you hear must be a result of the quality of the individual clarinets being sent to you for trial rather than Opus "sound" vs "that" of the Concerto. The tone boosters of the Opus may resonate the sound a lilttle diferently, but the basic qualities of the two are identical. At least, the chief designer for LeBlanc though so. Good clarineting!!!!!!!
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-07-15 02:26
Please re-read the subject line. I modified it SLIGHTLY ! <grin>
Jan, you sound like a very nice person, very intelligent, great communicator, a great daughter, a dedicated clarinettist with a bright future, &f a very good credit risk! (& I assess creditworthiness for a living) : )
SO, please make sure you don't psych yourself out on your Selmer Signature. We can convince ourselves of anything ... given the time & a creaative imagination.
NO CLARINET IS PERFECT ! Should anyone tell you _differently_ they are a) fibbing or b) deranged or c) a mixture of both.
Also, remember it has been said that Larry Combs would sound like Larry Combs on a plastic Vito, instead of whatever pro model he is (supposed to be) playing! (Opus, but reports vary) [[ substitute your favorite player for Mr. Combs .... Sabine Meyer will sound like Sabine, etc. ]]
Keep on Pluggin',
mw
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Author: ClarinetBoy
Date: 2001-07-15 06:41
good post mw.. couldn't agree more.
Every Clarinet is different and we shouldn't get into brand wars...
Ultimately I think it's the player that is the biggest variable...
practise, practise, practise! ...
bw
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-07-15 14:21
It is true that each individual develops his/her own "sound" and style, as mw has stated. The mouthpiece set up is critical, but also the individual development of tone and technique.
And, Mark, I give up. Perhaps I'll play a Concerto one day that sounds as good as an Opus. If so, I'll buy it on the spot.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-07-15 14:42
No, that not what I said. Here is what I said:
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"NO CLARINET IS PERFECT ! Should anyone tell you _differently_ they are a) fibbing or b) deranged or c) a mixture of both."
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