 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: cromerblues
Date: 2021-04-15 16:12
Hi, I refurbish & repair clarinets & currently have 2 x B&H 8-10's. They are in extremely good condition & play well. I understand these were made for the N.American market when they struggled to obtain 10-10's. They are a professional clarinet but have the usual B&H 14.9 bore. I also have 3 Edgware (2 wood/1 Ebon.) all in good nick too. Having worked on them all the differences are minimal. Interestingly they all play with similar tone although I rate the 8-10s highest. IMO the Edgwares are seriously underrated. If you can find a decent one and improve it you end up with a pretty decent piece of kit. The Emperor, 926, 8-10's are enhanced but £150/250 for a good Edgware it makes an outlay of £350/450 for an Emperor seem a big leap. I am though struggling to find where to pitch the 8-10s. Not many know of them, although they are definitely professional horns and very well made. Silver plated keys, great wood, plus all the extras expected on a pro horn. Pair them with the right mouthpiece and you have an everyday very usable clarinet whether first or second choice. Price though is not helped by the little knowledge out there. They are quite rare in the UK and when they turn up in retailers they are priced around £800. Any thoughts would be good.
Clarinets; B&H Edgware wood x 2, HR, 8-10 x 2, Besson Westminster, F Buisson, Noblet 40, Noblet 45 Artist x 2, Selmer Sterling & Console wood etc
Saxes; Buescher Aristocrat Alto, H Selmer/Bundy 1 Buescher 20A stencil,
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2021-04-15 17:02
The 8-10s are most likely the same thing as an Imperial 926.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: cromerblues
Date: 2021-04-15 18:35
Thanks Chris.
Well, according to documentation from B&H archives they were developed to solve a problem accessing 1010's in N America/Canada. There is no direct comparison as far as I am aware in the UK, unlike say, 2-20/Edgware/Westminster/Besson55. However, you may have a point. I have just compared my 181xxx 8-10 with an Imperial 926 on Ebay (£600+) 264xxx, and I would say the keys are identical. Looking at an older 926 they are not. The trill key guide is different and it has a single pivot/fixing on the LH pinky keys rather than the usual double plus some other small differences. The tenon rings are different, the 8-10 have single centre ridge not smooth. Otherwise it may just be possible B&H solved their 1010 problem by using the 926 under the 8-10 banner for N America. There is nothing that I have found in the various archives to support this but the serials are only 80k apart. Why it is not mentioned in dispatches I do not understand as the evolution and purpose of the 8-10 is documented as a standalone CL. This would support the quality though and suggest that prices should be similar in the £600 range.
Clarinets; B&H Edgware wood x 2, HR, 8-10 x 2, Besson Westminster, F Buisson, Noblet 40, Noblet 45 Artist x 2, Selmer Sterling & Console wood etc
Saxes; Buescher Aristocrat Alto, H Selmer/Bundy 1 Buescher 20A stencil,
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Author: cromerblues
Date: 2021-04-15 19:43
Chris, I have further researched using Jocelyn Howell's thesis which researches B&H thoroughly. First 8-10 developed 1957 and sold until 1961 when became the new 2000. N America received 9 initially stamped Stratford thereafter 8-10. They were very popular professional clarinets. I have never seen a 2000 though! They used elements of the 926 design ie tooling for tone holes/undercuts etc and the bore was slightly larger than the Edgware. There is a Besson Stratford which is a different beast altogether. So my earlier post is not quite correct. It seems not a 926 in disguise, but similar. All very weird. Developed for American tone/dance/jazzbands. Never sold here no idea why! If you do not have the thesis referred to above there are 2 and they make very interesting definitive reading.
Clarinets; B&H Edgware wood x 2, HR, 8-10 x 2, Besson Westminster, F Buisson, Noblet 40, Noblet 45 Artist x 2, Selmer Sterling & Console wood etc
Saxes; Buescher Aristocrat Alto, H Selmer/Bundy 1 Buescher 20A stencil,
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Author: graham
Date: 2021-04-15 21:01
My guess is that these were tuned to play on French mouthpiece dimensions (which includes US mouthpieces.l). See Stephen Fox’s site concerning the major redesign he did on one clarinet model solely to be able to sell in the US where 1010 mouthpieces are not seriously countenanced. A 926 plays more accurately on a 926 mouthpiece. So the 8-10 may have been adapted to avoid this characteristic. If 14.9 nominal bore is the measurement then it is narrower than the 926 and more like a Martel.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2021-04-15 21:58
Do be aware the keywork was changed on all B&H clarinets in the very late '50s/early '60s when the two separate trill key guides were replaced with a single one, the C#/G# key was lengthened and asymmetrical, the long Bb linkage was flipped having the flared end on the RH ring key foot instead of on the LH2 ring key overlever and the LH F/C touch got it's cross-hatched look.
Plus some other changes how the flat springs were mounted on the undersides without being recessed into the keys, the throat G# adjusting screw being soldered to the top side instead of going through the arm and the RH F#/C# key linkage piece being much thicker instead of being sculptured and several other small changes.
The mazak-keyed B&H "77" (wood with ebonite bell) and wooden Regent were discontinued and replaced with the bakelite-bodied Regent (and Series 1-10) as their entry level clarinet.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: cromerblues
Date: 2021-04-16 13:59
Graham,
The 8-10 was aimed squarely at the American market with the sound being akin to their apparent tastes. I believe the correlation to French bore is correct and B&H were purposely looking in that direction for this one clarinet. As far as I can find out, this is the only B&H clarinet made for a specific market (discounting most B&H products made for GB market, especially military (India was popular before partition and the demise of the Empire etc) I do not understand why they did not market the 8-10 in the UK, even if they changed the name? Unless it was deemed so close to the 926/Imperial and may dilute the strong 1010 following? In all my research there has not been a suggested direct mouthpiece recommendation. The 926 mouthpiece ought to be fine but for me personally I have found a Woodwind Co, and Vand B45 have the best response with many others including Selmers, Otto Link etc being perfectly decent players. If anyone can find an 8-10 I highly recommend trying it. There are many views across the Net suggesting this to be a student or low intermediate CL, it is not. In B&H's own scribings it is listed as a Professional horn. I think due to the misinformation when they do turn up for sale on auction sites they are obtainable at low prices, ie less than £100.
Clarinets; B&H Edgware wood x 2, HR, 8-10 x 2, Besson Westminster, F Buisson, Noblet 40, Noblet 45 Artist x 2, Selmer Sterling & Console wood etc
Saxes; Buescher Aristocrat Alto, H Selmer/Bundy 1 Buescher 20A stencil,
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Author: cromerblues
Date: 2021-04-16 15:35
photos attached of B&H 8-10 hope this helps anyone interested
Clarinets; B&H Edgware wood x 2, HR, 8-10 x 2, Besson Westminster, F Buisson, Noblet 40, Noblet 45 Artist x 2, Selmer Sterling & Console wood etc
Saxes; Buescher Aristocrat Alto, H Selmer/Bundy 1 Buescher 20A stencil,
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Author: cromerblues
Date: 2021-04-16 15:40
Attachment: IMG_20210416_122402.jpg (1475k)
Attachment: IMG_20210416_122524.jpg (1284k)
Attachment: IMG_20210416_122544.jpg (1674k)
Attachment: IMG_20210416_122614.jpg (1651k)
photos not appeared on my listing will try again, apologies if they turn up twice!
Clarinets; B&H Edgware wood x 2, HR, 8-10 x 2, Besson Westminster, F Buisson, Noblet 40, Noblet 45 Artist x 2, Selmer Sterling & Console wood etc
Saxes; Buescher Aristocrat Alto, H Selmer/Bundy 1 Buescher 20A stencil,
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2021-04-16 16:17
The tenon rings are similar to the Emperor. So, may be the instrument is more similar to the Emperor than 926 Imperial? Hard to say as there are almost no differences between both models apart from barrels and bells.
The barrel has the Edgware tenon rings and may not be the original barrel delivered with this instrument.
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Author: cromerblues
Date: 2021-04-16 17:19
Jeroen
You are correct, I forgot that on this 8-10 I swapped barrel for tuning reasons, they can be a little temperamental. The B&H research literature explains that the 8-10 was made using the 926 undercutting and associated tone hole tooling. The Emperor is in reality an intermediate/ top level student instrument, again from B&H whereas the 8-10 is professional, leaning it towards the Imperial/926 and 1010 as the only pro clarinets they produced. I do not think there is much to choose between the two.
Clarinets; B&H Edgware wood x 2, HR, 8-10 x 2, Besson Westminster, F Buisson, Noblet 40, Noblet 45 Artist x 2, Selmer Sterling & Console wood etc
Saxes; Buescher Aristocrat Alto, H Selmer/Bundy 1 Buescher 20A stencil,
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2021-04-16 17:35
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/download.html/1,7124/IMG_20210416_122402.jpg
That's got the later single trill key guide and G# adjusting screw pip, but still has the '50s style keywork everywhere else. Also the Emperor socket rings so I'm wondering if it's a model in between the Emperor and Imperial 926. With the serial number in the 180000s it's at the point where things were changing in their design to the newer style used right up until the '80s.
I've seen an ebonite Imperial 926 from the '50s and that had a much larger bore than one from the '60s onwards. It was over 15mm at the middle tenon, but not quite the 1010's large 15.2mm bore and being ebonite, it hadn't gone oval as wooden clarinets can.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: cromerblues
Date: 2021-04-16 19:04
Chris,
I think it all hinges around B&H's own explanation that they purpose built it for USA/Canada market. Knowing B&H's propensity to mix and match and bear in mind there are plenty of examples of horns like Edgwares with silver plated key work, undercut tone holes, etc etc, that they purposely mix built for a period from whatever parts they had with a direct instruction to use what was available. There was also a direct instruction to downgrade 926's and use the cheapest components they had. So, the later 926's apparently can be made up of Edgware parts, Emperor parts and genuine 926 parts........this means some are no more than badged up Edgwares. I have personally seen a full mix of quality and currently sit on 2 really good quality wood Edgwares, an ebonite version that sounds identical (great for the outside folk) and examples of the 2 x 8-10s which I feel sit right up there with some of their best. The period around 1970's seems to be the time when quality diminished and to some extent it was pot luck regarding your new purchase. The number range for my 2 are 180xxx and 181xxx, with the period of manufacture being only 4 years that feels correct. If you compare online auction Imperials there is a stark difference in look from older and newer versions. As said before I cannot understand why I have not seen a 2000 version of the 8-10 being the superseding model in 1961, albeit made for N America. There was an ebonite Emperor sold on Ebay yesterday that looked awful, odd logo, Regent barrel, keywork very standard, confidence must have been low as it went for only £145, a good £100/150 plus under average prices. But where did it come from? Not the usual set up, my ebonite Edgware looks far better and has good metalwork. So, it seems B&H had an odd period, around the time more and more stencils were being made in Europe and allowed quality to drop. Much of this was attributed to a need to bolster sales having lost important markets.
For a while they tried to pass off Imperials as hand made high quality when they were made on the factory production lines, using women (highly unusual then as their skillsets were a long way beneath the long in tooth old boys) this was a direct order from above and continued for a period, damaging reputation during the time they were on a downward trajectory and heading towards oblivion.
Clarinets; B&H Edgware wood x 2, HR, 8-10 x 2, Besson Westminster, F Buisson, Noblet 40, Noblet 45 Artist x 2, Selmer Sterling & Console wood etc
Saxes; Buescher Aristocrat Alto, H Selmer/Bundy 1 Buescher 20A stencil,
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Author: cromerblues
Date: 2021-04-16 20:16
Clarinets; B&H Edgware wood x 2, HR, 8-10 x 2, Besson Westminster, F Buisson, Noblet 40, Noblet 45 Artist x 2, Selmer Sterling & Console wood etc
Saxes; Buescher Aristocrat Alto, H Selmer/Bundy 1 Buescher 20A stencil,
Post Edited (2021-04-16 20:18)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2021-04-16 22:46
Later 1010s from the '70s to the end of production were also very hit-and-miss as they were also finished pretty much to the same standard as plastic Regents, only using Gordon Beeson leather pads instead of skin pads which were glued in with Evo-Stik so they couldn't be adjusted further on down the line. I had a late 1010 from around '83 and there were loads of things to sort out and the ones from the '70s I've worked on left a lot to be desired.
I suppose the same can be said with Buffet clarinets where their top end models aren't finished any better than their entry level models besides using better quality pads, but still using peel'n'stick pre-cut foam shapes instead of properly fitted key corks/silencing materials which is something you don't really want to see on a clarinet they charge a hefty premium for.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris_C ★2017
Date: 2021-04-17 01:52
My plastic Regent II from around 1978 is actually a rather nice instrument... fits with the discussion above! They can be picked up for £10-£20 and are very good value at that price. As Chris P remarks, the wooden Regent I is to be avoided like the plague.
I was once on a management training course where one of the tutors had been MD of B&H. I wish I had asked him why we should pay any attention to him when B&H were no more.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2021-04-17 02:13
I've had LOTS of B&H clarinets, and currently have an 8-10 and a 2-20. Aside from trim (e.g. tenon rings), body material (wood/hard rubber/plastic) and minor keywork details, it's my opinion/observation that ALL the models besides the very large-bore 1010 are acoustically IDENTICAL. That is, the bores and toneholes are basically the same from the humble plastic 1-10/Regent through the Edgware and Stratford through the 8-10 and Imperial/926. In my personal experience, given overhauls with the same level of care, they end up playing and sounding pretty much the same. I restored a plastic 1-10 for a customer some years ago and, as far as I could tell, it played just like my wood 8-10.
There are of course going to be slight differences in tone and tuning from instrument to instrument, but no more so than between different samples of the same brand/model by other major manufacturers. Certainly I've experienced greater differences between several Buffet R-13s (for example) than between various B&H models.
That said, I like the 8-10 for its nicer appearance, and the 2-20 for the extended r.h. lower side key and "fingernail file" l.h. spatula key. Nothing wrong with the Edgwares, they are readily available for pennies and with a nice overhaul are decent intermediate clarinets.
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2021-04-17 09:11
Quote:
I've had LOTS of B&H clarinets, and currently have an 8-10 and a 2-20. Aside from trim (e.g. tenon rings), body material (wood/hard rubber/plastic) and minor keywork details, it's my opinion/observation that ALL the models besides the very large-bore 1010 are acoustically IDENTICAL. That is, the bores and toneholes are basically the same from the humble plastic 1-10/Regent through the Edgware and Stratford through the 8-10 and Imperial/926. In my personal experience, given overhauls with the same level of care, they end up playing and sounding pretty much the same. I restored a plastic 1-10 for a customer some years ago and, as far as I could tell, it played just like my wood 8-10.
I also have an 8-10--rebuilt by Dave Spiegelthal--and a carefully overhauled plastic 1-10. I agree with Dave--they play and sound pretty much the same. They're both delightful clarinets.
My mint-condition 1-10, with zero plating wear, cost me less than US$50. While it seems a pity that B&H clarinets get so little love here in the USA, it really makes me sad to see top-drawer Leblanc instruments from decades ago now being regarded with the same indifference.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2021-04-17 16:20
I'll just chime in here - genuine B&H Regents and the B&H Regent II are very different things.
The original B&H Regent was wood with die cast Mazak keys to make them affordable wooden clarinets (the B&H "77" was their entry level clarinet with an ebonite bell and a very basic case), then they were replaced with the injection moulded bakelite-bodied Regent in the early '60s and the body material was changed to the much lighter/less dense ABS resin in the late '70s/early '80s.
The Regent II was made by Schreiber and was almost identical to the plastic Evette and early B12 except for the B&H Regent-style bell. It was only around briefly and picked up the baton from the plastic Evette and then handed it to the Buffet B12.
https://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NzY4WDEwMjQ=/z/FoMAAOSwVFlT53AB/$_86.JPG
The thing with B&H is they made all sorts of odd things - they made machined PVC Edgwares with inset ebonite tonehole chimneys in both Bb and A, but also offered a bakelite version of the Emperor with silver plated keys and scalloped socket rings which was identical to the Regent except for the plating and socket rings. You'd have thought with the Emperor being a higher level student model than the Edgware, they'd have been the ones with machined plastic bodies and inset toneholes rather than the same injection moulded bakelite bodies as used on the Regent.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris_C ★2017
Date: 2021-04-17 17:22
I also have a plastic (not sure what sort) B&H Imperial Eflat, which I don't think was the normal material? Ex-military.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2021-04-17 19:44
That was most likely an ebonite one - they're pretty decent Eb clarinets. There used to be one at college which looked like it had been dredged up from a shipwreck as the keys were really corroded where the plating had worn through. My clarinet teacher also had one and he could really make it sing. Then again, he could probably make a length of old garden hose sound like a £7000 clarinet.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: cromerblues
Date: 2021-04-17 21:05
All,
I think the upshot is that we all agree there can be very little difference between so called low end and top end B&H clarinets. The big differences are when you get a poor one, then all manner of things are wrong. If you follow the B&H mantra then they all have their place until the period the factories were instructed to use anything to make anything!! I agree totally with David Sp. that the 8-10 aesthetically trumps. It is a lovely looking CL and feels good in the hands. Additionally it plays really nicely, in fact both mine do. As alluded to earlier the only issues I have had is tuning and interchanging barrels to find the best tuning set up....hence the Edgware barrel inadvertently on the photographed 8-10.
I struck it really happy 6 months back when someone advertised 3 clarinets for sale in one lot. An Edgware ebonite, A Leblanc LL and B&H 8-10. I watched until the auction was closing and no one had bid, which considering £50 start was odd. I finally bid at the last minute and scooped all 3 for £50!! They looked fine in the pics, so I waited until they arrived, which they did in a few days. The seller also was selling decent saxes so should have been aware of prices. Apparently not, he honoured the sale and I ended up with 3 very decent clarinets. The LL was lovely, played well, good nick, and I sold it on for £350 (a giveaway) gratefully received by a uni student who loved Leblanc and wanted to play jazz on it. The others I have still and both play really nicely, feel very similar and sound very similar. Price difference probably £150 v £500 serviced and set up. I wish I had kept the Leblanc but cant keep them all. So those 3 clarinets illustrate the closeness of B&H if you find good ones and how especially good the Leblancs (1960's serials) can be. 2 Professional clarinets and one very good higher student for £50. value around £1000. I think he had them listed in the wrong section, or the world went mad for a few days. Keep eyes peeled and you never know! I would have bought the 3 cases for £50!! Ultimately I believe well made good quality B&H at all levels can provide excellent value. I will never know if the seller realised his error and did not want to ask!! Personally growing up I had a plastic Regent to replace a very usable Chinese wooden CL bought in 1970 and that Regent allowed me to learn, practice and gain a decent sound/embouchere. I think I let it go for £30 about 12 years ago. Nowt wrong with it.......
Clarinets; B&H Edgware wood x 2, HR, 8-10 x 2, Besson Westminster, F Buisson, Noblet 40, Noblet 45 Artist x 2, Selmer Sterling & Console wood etc
Saxes; Buescher Aristocrat Alto, H Selmer/Bundy 1 Buescher 20A stencil,
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2021-04-19 12:30
Currently I use 2 pairs of clarinets as my main instruments. The first pair are Buffet Festival Bb/R13 Vintage A, the other are old 926 Imperials. I have some more B&H clarinets at home and many have passed by. Didn't like the 1010 though.
I can agree that all 926 bore instruments are basically acoustically identical. At least the Edgware, Emperor and Imperial. I don't have seen a 8-10 myself.
Of all of these the Bb have the same tuning anomalies: small 12ths in the right hand and small 12ths in the left hand. Using a 926 bored mouthpiece helps but not enough for high level amateur or professional musical performance nowadays. I have one exception to this rule: my old 926 from around 1950 that does tune well. I think there was some rework done to it. May be already at the factory, may be later. This is the Bb I play on.
The A have lesser intonation problems. Some have wide 12ths in the left hand.
For intonation it can help to roll barrels, there are some bore differences probably due to fabrication tolerances.
Soundwise I think the Edgwares are free blowing instruments with not very much resonance. The Emperor is less free blowing and has a more compact, 'nutty' sound. The 926 is more free blowing and has a larger and richer sound. Most of these differences are made by the barrel and bell. However there are some individual differences in the main body as in all other brands. The nice thing is that you can combine any body, barrel and bell to find your optimal clarinet.
Resell value is pretty low apart from the 926 and 1010 that do a little better.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2021-04-19 13:04
I found they tune best with a 67mm barrel and with it pulled out between 1 to 2mm to bring the throat notes down to pitch as they can be on the sharp side when using a Vandoren or other French-style mouthpiece.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: cromerblues
Date: 2021-04-19 13:21
Jeroen,
I pretty much agree with your appraisal. However I wish you could try the 8-10, I think you would be surprised. They do hold their value and compare well with the 926. Of course there are always good and bad and so little can make significant change. The Edgwares are easiest to blow but I feel with the 8-10 it is a bit like driving a Ford then a Jaguar......there is something a little more precise and comforting, but still, for me, the barrel issues. I wonder if they matched barrels individually to each CL or simply popped an 8-10 marked barrel on an 8-10 CL? I have never tried a 1010 so cannot compare. My biggest surprise was the lack of difference between the Edgware wood and Ebonite. I cannot tell which is which tonally. Resale price on good Edgwares can be £150-350 depending on the day and I think that is reasonable value. The 926's seem to go between £400/650. Do you think there is £400 difference between the used R13 and your 926's? I assume you get around the tuning anomalies in the B&H's in your playing rather than constantly fight bits of wood and are used to the foibles? If you ever get a chance to obtain or play an 8-10 please do, I would be interested in your thoughts. As pretty much standalone instruments not made from stock parts (apart from keywork) they may be free of the original issues that prevail across the range.
I need to concentrate on bringing my 2 Noblet 45 Artists up to scratch, I have always liked Noble/Leblanc, different feel, but reasonably consistent and nice build.
Clarinets; B&H Edgware wood x 2, HR, 8-10 x 2, Besson Westminster, F Buisson, Noblet 40, Noblet 45 Artist x 2, Selmer Sterling & Console wood etc
Saxes; Buescher Aristocrat Alto, H Selmer/Bundy 1 Buescher 20A stencil,
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Author: cromerblues
Date: 2021-04-19 13:24
Chris P
I agree, after a morning swapping and playing and tuning, it was 67mm that did the job. Temperature, as in not warmed up, is always the most difficult time.
Clarinets; B&H Edgware wood x 2, HR, 8-10 x 2, Besson Westminster, F Buisson, Noblet 40, Noblet 45 Artist x 2, Selmer Sterling & Console wood etc
Saxes; Buescher Aristocrat Alto, H Selmer/Bundy 1 Buescher 20A stencil,
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2021-04-28 15:22
Adding to the list of B&H stencils we have:
Besson "35" and Romilly Sonata which are plastic Regents,
Besson "55", Romilly Rondo and Romilly Graduate are Edgwares
B&H "78" are Bundy/Buescher clarinets.
B&H 400/Lafleur are Amati (Corton) clarinets.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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