 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: David
Date: 2001-07-13 02:45
Again, we might have another debate. It's on lessons.
Ever since the Clarinet Lamp debate I have been rather curious about the opinons of some people on this forum. People tend to have their minds set on one pattern or another, and it brings on a volley of ethical issues that most would not expect from a clarinet forum. But I've thought up a new situation:
Let's say a kid had a dream and wanted to follow that dream... Let's say that he wanted nothing more than life than to play the clarinet. But everyone noticed that the kid had no sense of rhythm and was close to tone-deaf. But he was dedicated, and all he needed was encouragement to follow his dream, even though the chances of the dream coming true with his "musical skills" were very faint.
What would you do?
Would you give the kid a chance and offer him lessons?
Or would you tell him the truth and send him on his way to find his true talent?
I am still undecided on this issue and even though I am far from the stage of lessons-giving I would still be interested in your opinon.
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Author: Mike Harrelson
Date: 2001-07-13 03:29
"But everyone noticed that the kid had no sense of rhythm and was close to tone-deaf." Maybe a few natural talents, but don't most of us start out that way? Playing a musical instrument is easier for some but it is a skill that can be learned.
We practice and work hours a day for years and years and guess what people say when we play something well... "you sure are talented". Good musicians make it look and sound easy, but they didn't start out that way....
Don't most of us play because we enjoy it, not because we are great musicians?
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Author: willie
Date: 2001-07-13 04:04
Some of these skills take longer on some than do others. I
wouldn't give up right away. Eventually it will come to the student and he or she will take off. I think kids who have never been exposed to good music at an early age generaly take longer to catch on in most cases. Kids who at an early age who have had good music in their homes, at least to me, seem to already have a feel for rhythm and pitch.
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Author: Jim
Date: 2001-07-13 04:21
After 2 years of German in college my professor called me aside and said "I think you will always be a C student in German, if you've satisfied your requirement, you might want to end your study of it, but if you are enjoying it be all means continue." I always appreciated his honesty, and had come to the same conclusion some time earlier.
Gemnerally I suspect most people tend to find studies/ activities in which they excell and are interested. Part of the educational process.
An example of someone who did not readily move on though comes from my church choir. We had a fellow join us without a musical background (not at all unusual.) His problem was that he couldn't match a pitch either from other singers or from the piano. The director is very tolerant, and never said anything to him. He lasted ten years before finially leaving, never getting any better. Those singing near him had to block out the sound from that side. He knew that he wasn't at the level or everyone else (he told me so) but continued because he enjoyed it. This is a highly educated, very successful professional. I do know that no other vocal director with whom I've sung would have tolerated this for anything like 10 years.
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Author: joevacc
Date: 2001-07-13 04:38
An old priest friend of mine once said "If you have a great voice, sing to praise God with it! If you do not, sing to get back at him!" ;~)
-=[Joe Vacc]=-
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Author: jbutler
Date: 2001-07-13 11:34
The best accompanist I had at university was totally deaf in one ear and had limited hearing in the other. She was legally deaf. Her first name was Echoe. I fell in love witht he girl, but backed off because she was already engaged. She always had her eyes on my fingers and keys, never looking at hers. She also had me stand close to her good ear. Marvelous pianist.....Van Cliburn Competition level, probably not, but you could tell she enjoyed her art.
I've also had very "so-so" students. I enjoyed them all. I'm sometimes amazed at the ones, that I would least expect to, go on to major in music in college. Would others have put up with their "peaks and valleys" of practicing? I don't know. But I'm glad I did. So my vote is to "give the kid a chance".
John
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Author: jan
Date: 2001-07-13 12:44
i believe i am one of those students. i have been at a mediocre level for many years. but i enjoy it very very much and tho i think my teacher believes in his heart i wont get much further than a community band or amateur clarinet choir, he continues to work with me as if i will, and i appreciate that.
i think students who are not up to par but enjoy what they are doing will latch onto something else that they do better but will always have music as their passion.
jan
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Author: Anji
Date: 2001-07-13 12:45
I would use Madonna, Ricky Martin, Kenny G and Richard Stolzman as examples.
A good publicist, regular practice and good packaging go a long way.
"Never attack a man's dreams, they may be all he has."
How many NBA players doubted their abilities? Probably none.
Confidence in yourself, regardless of the facts, is one of the keys to success.
If you were my teacher, and told me to look into other venues; I would fire you SO fast (not to mention the endless slaughter of your reputation).
If you need to weed out a student, or no longer wish to train them, there are countless ways to demur or decline lessons.
You're dealing with fragile egoes, particularly under the age of 20 (some would say 60) so tread lightly.
anji
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Author: William
Date: 2001-07-13 14:11
How does one find their "true talent" except to search? That is what public education is all about--letting each student explore his/her potential in order to be able to make an informed life-career choice. I vote for the lessons and the freedom to be all that one can be. No one should be pre-judged to be a failure.
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2001-07-13 14:52
Alright, I would like to give a bit of a reality check.
First of all I think that you should never give up on a music student, even if he/she has absolutely no talent. We need to teach the joy of playing music and this can be passed on to any individual whatever his musical abilities are.
Now, to comment on the NBA players, if most of the ones that are there did not doubt their abilitites, many many many did not make it to the top because they did not have the physical ability.
Well, I believe a musician is more and more comparable to the athlete in the sense that only the best can make a living out of their clarinet.
I tend to believe that the motivation and drive to play the instrument needs to go with some talent in order to make it in the professional world.
I think this needs to be said to the student before he/she seriously considers a career in music and a frank evaluation of his capabilities is necessary. If you audition for an orchestra, it is your ability to play which is evaluated not your motivation and desire to play. There are just not enough jobs for clarinet players, to let the average ones succeed...
However, I also truly believe one should always accept a student whatever his level is, make him work hard to achieve his best. Many of us on this board do not intend nor even wish to become professional musicians. It does not prevent us from being passionate about the clarinet and enjoy simply playing music. So why would we not get lessons just for that purpose?
-S
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Author: Dee
Date: 2001-07-13 16:19
However one should not evaluate a student until they have been studying a rather long time. It is quite possible that some one might be a very slow starter but have a lot of hidden talent that could emerge and take off. The "reality check" as far as a performance career goes need not be addressed until the student has had several years of private lessons and is at the point where they will be choosing schools, training etc for a career direction.
There are numerous cases of "no talent" individuals becoming Olympic medalists. Some great opera singers, Franco Corelli and Magda Olivero for example, were told by vocal coaches early in their training to give it up and go home. Yet they did not listen and became top notch singers. So who is to say what the future holds.
Of course *ALL* aspiring musicians (just like aspiring athletes) do need to be aware that the number of available jobs is very small and the number of persons seeking those jobs far exceed the availability.
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Author: Ginny
Date: 2001-07-13 16:59
I would not encourage any student to go into music as a career. Let's face it, its
much more fun as a hobby. Nor would I go out of my way to tell someone not to
because of lack of talent.
I taught guitar for about 10 or 15 years (before kids went to school) and
I had only one tone deaf student.
He began to learn to match pitch and certainly was not the best student
I had...but was only a short term student.
The issue did not come up very often in lessons, nor do I recall it being
important. But I mostly taught local kids and some adults.
Personally, I am not extremely 'talented.' Certainly being a pro-musician
at the level I achieved can be done by nearly anyone
willing to practice hard and self-promote at least a little.
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Author: David
Date: 2001-07-13 22:53
The jury has reached a verdict!!
I think I catch the drift of what many people in this situation would do. I am far from being in the state of teaching lessons (In fact, the clarinet, I must admit, is my second instrument, my first being the tuba, though I adore the clarinet.) but if I ever DID fall into the circumstances where I was giving clarinet lessons and had a student that was not the brightest crayon in the box... To this day I am still uncertain of EXACTLY how I would handle the situation, but I would at least give the kid a chance.
After all, I was never the greatest on the clarinet. What makes this any different? No matter what the extent of the spectrum may be, whether you need to work on tone and rhythm or need to quit thinking in turns of valve positions on the tuba, eveyrone deserves an equal chance at lessons.
I can see that a lot of other people agree with me on the subject. Thanks for putting in your two cents!!
David Pegel
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Author: Sue B
Date: 2001-07-13 23:37
I know this might way off the mark but in the event that you had to let a student go you should probably understand some other realities...
You are doing exactly what any manager in business has to face on a day to day basis.
Who to keep and who to let go.
I don't really advocate this for lessons because I would hate to see somebody take the joy out of it for somebody. Depending on the teaching situation you might just be able to sway them over to another teacher who might have more success, different techniques etc.
Trust me you know when you aren't progressing either.
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Author: Allen Cole
Date: 2001-07-14 03:03
I've dealt with this in two situations:
Case #1 - Retired man, highly intelligent and inventive. Learned a number of his scales, could play music by ear, and accurately write it down. Learned theory to the point of I/IV/V chordal harmony and two-part linear harmony. Developed a number of innovative, if not always well-advised, approaches to problems that most of us normally just cope with.
Results: Never could totally function in real time, or with band parts other than the melody. Was both a frustrated (and frustrating) member of a local community band for a couple of years, but his tinkerer's intellect caused him to turn it into a very stimulating hobby at home. Although he never could deal with band parts (probably far too distracted by the other parts) he did pretty well with CD play-alongs, and recorded/playing simple duets with himself.
Conclusion: Glad I took him. He was curious and creative in his own way, and I often enjoyed him more than some of my most talented high-schoolers. I do regret sending him to the community band, but his intelligence and early progress looked extremely promising at the time.
Case #2 - Middle school student, with learning and emotional disabilities. LD is possibly linguistic, and his attention seems diverted. Seems to have difficulty processing verbal commands. I have to give him extra time, and his Mom has to sit in on the lessons and assist him sometimes at home.
Results: After a semester, he knows 5 major scales, and can play a few simple tunes over them. Can now recite simple rhythms vocally, although he totally loses this in the distraction of manipulating the instrument. Very frustrating to teach, but a really nice kid who practices consistently.
Conclusion: Prognosis is not good, but he sometimes surprises me. He works hard and deserves the best chance I can give him, and his band director has approved his promotion to the 8th grade band although he hasn't completed the 6th grade book. I've often thought we should hang it up, but can't help rooting for him. We are working hard on basics and I think that something will snap into place if this continues.
Personally, I rarely drop a student--and never on 'talent' issues. When I do, it's generally over issues of atttendance, quality of effort, or behavior. Those generally provide a better basis for assessment.
With apologies to Isaiah, I've seen a some valleys get exalted and even more hills made low!
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Author: Katrina Mundinger
Date: 2001-07-14 16:14
I agree with Allan. I have never dropped a student. If I would, as he states, it'd be because of attendance issues. All of my kids (and adults) practice at least a little. I was always one of those students myself, who needed to be prodded into practicing, so I certainly understand their positions.
I firmly believe anyone can learn to love playing the clarinet (or any instrument), however poorly or well they play. Sometimes, a student will "click" with one instrument and not another. That's fine too, but when they're in my clarinet studio, even if they're not having fun with the INSTRUMENT, I want them to learn the joy of playing MUSIC.
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Author: David Kinder
Date: 2001-07-14 17:30
I would do the best I could to help this kid achieve his goals. It would take a long time, but I'd consider it a challenge. The payoff would be: I helped him do it, or I helped him until he gave up, but at least I helped him when no one else would.
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Author: elise
Date: 2001-07-15 03:49
I agree--there's certainly no reason why this kid should be denied lessons. A dream/like is one thing, whereas a talent is another. For many musicians, it works out that their love also happens to be their talent. All the more power to them. Although he/she might not excel as quickly as the "natural-born" musicians--or maybe not at all--it's the enjoyment that matters.
On the other hand, if this kid decides after a couple of months of lessons (and let's say that he has made little progress and does not look to be promising) that he's just fabulous and going to be the next big star--I would delicately let down the DELUSIONAL child--but if he or she still wants to pursue it--good luck to them and I'd be happy to keep working with such a dedicated individual.
Just remind them that there are several other opportunities--even the most talented people should have something to "fall back on." :P
elise
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