 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: EricBlack
Date: 2021-03-14 01:57
Recently I made a video comparing Schwenk and Seggelke barrels that contain the same bore, but feature different shapes/ring structures.
https://youtu.be/N9wFmfKi-b0
Has anyone else tried these out? What were your thoughts? Anecdotally, I have seen them being used by increasing amount of NYC clarinetists over the last few years.
While this was meant to be just a fun, cursory experiment, it made me wonder if there are any in-depth studies on this kind of subject? Dr. Mark Cramer at Tennessee Tech University did a study on how barrel material effects sound, response, etc. (http://libres.uncg.edu/ir/uncg/f/Cramer_uncg_0154D_11638.pdf, but there seems to be little else out there on this kind of subject!
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2021-03-14 06:38
I always like videos comparing equipment.
You may find something here: Lars Kirmser, an instructor at Renton Tech with many years experience, recently posted on the subject of materials on the Professional Muscal Instrument Repair Group on Facebook (you have to be involved in repair to join). He had studied acoustics in some depth and said that the only thing that matters is bore shape, based on scientific consensus. I think he's a flutist, or does a lot of flute work, and as you probably know flutists are more particular about metals than saxophonists are about lacquer, so he was going very much against musical opinion. I think he took it down (maybe because he didn't want people got upset...), but he then posted a bunch of acoustics resources. I know he will not mind my sharing. I have no opinion except to point out that 3 "identical" barrels may have 3 different bores - especially if they are wood.
Lars Kirmser
Professional Musical Instrument Repair Technician
Admin
· March 9 at 3:04 PM ·
Frequently, customers ask questions regarding their instruments involving musical acoustics, so, I have created a recommended reading list (Bibliography) on this topic. I have numbered those which I think are the best to start with starting with #1 - #6. If you are fairly new to this topic, the John Backus Book is ideal. The math involved is simple Algebra, no Calc. This is the course that many Universities use for the Acoustics for Musicians Courses. It will provide you with a very good understanding of the topic, and will help you avoid passing-on incorrect information to your clients.
RECOMMENDED BIBLIOGRAPHY FOR THE ACOUSTICS OF MUSIC:
*1. Backus. John. (1969). The Acoustical Foundations of Music. W.W. NORTON & CO., INC. ISBN - 0 393 09834 6
*2. Benade, Arthur H. (1990). Fundamentals of Musical Acoustics. Dover Publications. ISBN - 9780486264844.
Campbell, Murray; Greated, Clive (1994-04-28). The Musician's Guide to Acoustics. OUP Oxford. ISBN - 9780191591679.
*Cremer, Lothar (1984). The Physics of the Violin. MIT Press. ISBN 0 262 03102 7
*3. Fletcher, Neville H.; Rossing, Thomas 2ND EDITION (2010). The Physics of Musical Instruments. SPRINGER MEDIA INC. ISBN - 978 0 387 21603 4
Gibson, O. Lee. (1994). Clarinet Acoustics. Indiana Univ. Press. ISBN 0 253 32576 5
Helmholtz, Hermann L. F.; Ellis, Alexander J. (1885). "On the Sensations of Tone as a Physiological Basis for the Theory of Music by Hermann L. F. Helmholtz". Cambridge Core. Retrieved 2019-11-04. * (A must-read to get a historical review of Acoustical Research)
*4. Hopkin, Bart (1996). Musical Instrument Design: Practical Information for Instrument Design. See Sharp Press. ISBN - 978-1884365089.
*5. Hopkin, Bart (1999). Air Columns and Tone Holes: Principles for Wind Instrument Design.
Jansson, Erik. (2002). Acoustics for Violin and Guitar Makers. Kungl-Tekniska-Hogskolan.
Matthews, Augustus F. (1988). Violin Acoustics. Vantage Press. ISBN 0 533-07594 7
*6. Nederveen, C. J.(1998) Acoustical Aspects of Woodwind Instruments. No. Illinois Univ. Press. ISBN 0 87580 577 9
Rossing, Thomas, Editor. (2007). Springer Handbook of Musical Acoustics SPRINGER MEDIA INC. ISBN - 0 387 30425 0
Vigdorchik, Isaak. (1982). The Acoustical Systems of Violins of Stradivarius and Other Cremona Makers
If you have personal favorites you would like to recommend, please do so.
13 Comments
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RECOMMENDED EXTERNAL LINKS FOR THE ACOUSTICS OF MUSIC:
The Arthur H. Benade Archive
.. .. .. contains research files, correspondence, published and unpublished writings, and other material from the Benade estate. A. H. Benade (1925-1987) was a physicist whose work focused especially on the acoustics of woodwind and brass instruments. He excelled in both experiment and theory. The Acoustical Society of America awarded him its Silver Medal (for musical acoustics) and its Gold Medal (for overall excellence in acoustics). His entire career (1952-1987) was spent as a professor at Case Institute of Technology/Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH. List of Benade's writings on acoustics, both published (books, papers, and abstracts) and unpublished, including privately circulated papers, book chapters, outlines of talks, and slides made to illustrate lectures
BENADE Biography - https://ccrma.stanford.edu/marl/Benade/
Research Files - https://ccrma.stanford.edu/marl/Benade/
• Descriptions of files containing research data, measurements, calculations, and theory - https://ccrma.stanford.edu/marl/Benade/
• Correspondence - https://ccrma.stanford.edu/marl/Benade/
• Details of correspondence on acoustics-related subjects between Benade and scientists, engineers, musicians, and instrument makers - https://ccrma.stanford.edu/marl/Benade/
OTHER RECOMMENDED LINKS - GOOGLE FOR URL’s:
• Acoustics collection - descriptions, photos, and video clips of
the apparatus for research in musical acoustics by Prof.
Dayton Miller
• The Technical Committee on Musical Acoustics (TCMU) of the
Acoustical Society of America (ASA)
• The Musical Acoustics Research Library (MARL)
• Acoustics Group/Acoustics and Music Technology courses -
University of Edinburgh
• Acoustics Research Group - Open University
• Savart Journal - The open access online journal of science and
technology of stringed musical instruments
• Curso de Acústica Musical (Spanish)
- Matthew Simington
Post Edited (2021-03-14 06:49)
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Author: donald
Date: 2021-03-14 07:45
Of course, different materials will also have a different "finish" on the interior... Which will affect the acoustics (even taking into account the fact that there is almost no air actually flowing THROUGH the bore). So there's more involved that just dimensions and density. (I've heard more than one experienced clarinet player tell me they look for a barrel with a slightly grainy bore. Of course I've also met people say they look for a mirror finish).
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2021-03-14 22:58
donald wrote:
>(even taking into account the fact that there is almost no air
> actually flowing THROUGH the bore).
I remember more or less clearly the study that (I think) Paul Aviles shared that showed that air didn't *have to* flow through the aperture to excite vibration in the reed. But it's a jump, which I don't remember the study made, to saying that air *doesn't* flow through the mouthpiece-barrel-instrument in normal playing. Where does all the air we blow when we play go, if not into the mouthpiece, barrel and clarinet?
Karl
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Author: EricBlack
Date: 2021-03-14 23:26
Hey Matt,
Thanks so much for the list! That’s exactly the kind of resource I was looking for!
There are so many variables to all of this, the bore texture that Donald brings up is also another important factor that I often fail to think about. Brad Behn told me that he specifically texturized the bore on his hard rubber barrels because he found that it improved performance.
The Copland design is interesting and I’ll have to check it out at some point!
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2021-03-14 23:37
So that is close. You NEED the air to excite the reed. Once you have THAT actuator, really the air (which is much less than you might think) that enters the horn is somewhat superfluous.
Therefore the air that does go into the horn is just "extra." I could reference that video again about the British trumpet maker who played a trumpet with NO AIR going through the horn. Someone on the Board did a quick experiment with a membrane between mouthpiece and barrel and got pretty good results (of course you need the full length of the instrument and mouthpiece for the vibrating column to tune properly (the demonstration really works better on brass).
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: Ed
Date: 2021-03-14 23:45
Regarding the material debate, I know that the physics people say that there is absolutely no effect. I tend to trust science and data. At the same time playing and listening to lots of equipment over the years, my ears often find differences. I know that there might be other factors that come into play, but sometimes I wonder if there are qualities that the tools and data are missing.
In Eric's previous video testing the new Behn adjustable barrel, one can hear subtle differences in the two versions. I would imagine that being CNC manufactured to high tolerances there is likely no actual difference in dimensions. What then, is causing this difference? Brad has reported the same results in his testing. I am sure he has had the opportunity to play a large number of examples.
I realize that there are times when people want to hear a difference and wish to believe marketing hype. I have heard of seemingly crazy claims of changing the way an instrument vibrates by swapping out some of the pivot screws for a different type. I have heard of players removing lacquer from brass instruments or placing tape on areas of the bell to change the sound. Some of this may go too far, but who knows?
All of this can lead to player insanity and drawers of equipment searching for the magic solution. Even so, there seems to be something to it.
Fascinating stuff.
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Author: Burt
Date: 2021-03-15 07:14
My understanding is that, since it's the air column which vibrates, not the wood (or ebonite, etc.), the body of the clarinet can only detract from the vibration. A rough or discontinuous bore creates turbulence, a thin or lightweight body extracts some of the energy from the air column, and a non-constant wall thickness absorbs a different amount of energy at different places, but these effects are very small.
I don't believe that a tapered or stepped bore can help the tone quality, although it can help the intonation.
Burt
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