 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: m1964
Date: 2021-03-09 20:08
Hi,
Are Evette clarinets the same as Evette&Schaeffer?
I had an Evette (made in France) which sounded like a student clarinet, was out of tune too.
Are E&S clarinets any better?
Thanks
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2021-03-09 21:37
Evettes were the next tier of student clarinets below Evette & Schaeffer. E&S was designated E-13 (as I remember). Evettes were E-11 and E-12. I don't think there was an E-10. During my last years of teaching in a school band program, the whole naming structure for Buffets changed, the E- designations seemed to have been dropped, and the models were identified by BC numbers, which now, apparently (looking at Buffet's website), have been re-associated with E11 - 13, but without the name Evette (which I assume generated the E in the original designations).
Buffet has always been a little spotty for quality control. The best E&S (E-13) clarinets were quite playable and not especially plagued with intonation issues. The E-11 and E-12 were similar, but with less or no hand work and not, from at least the 1970s, made of wood.
Karl
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2021-03-10 10:10
>> I don't think there was an E-10. <<
There was an E10. It was basically the same as an E11 but maybe with plastic barrel and bell, or maybe just a barrel or a bell (I don't remember, maybe someone else would know).
>> The best E&S (E-13) clarinets were quite playable and not especially plagued with intonation issues. The E-11 and E-12 were similar, but with less or no hand work and not, from at least the 1970s, made of wood. <<
Maybe I misunderstood something from the way you phrased it, but the E11 and E12 were always made of wood.
They were also quite different from the E13 (at least after the Evette days). The E13 is/was made in France. The E11 was made in Germany by Schreiber for Buffet (except that later awful E11 France model).
I'm not sure about older versions of the E12, but the current E12F is basically the continuation of all of those (German E11 - French E11 - E12F) which is basically the same as the E11F but with the design defects fixed.
They brought back the E11, and it is again made in Germany, by what I imagine is formerly Schreiber (possibly Buffet bought them, not sure of the details). I guess it's mostly similar to the original German E11 but who knows what or if they changed anything.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: MichaelW
Date: 2021-03-10 16:02
Attachment: Buffet.JPG (38k)
This seems to be the actual Buffet Crampon range in German:
https://www.buffet-crampon.com/de/instruments/klarinetten/
As you can see (picture!) they have, by and by, acquired some of the traditional German shops like B & S, Julius Keilwerth, Meinl, J.Scherzer (formerly Neidhardt ?), and W. Schreiber.
Post Edited (2021-03-10 16:08)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2021-03-12 02:39
Well, it's a little more complicated. And, I think, the confusion probably dates back to around 1885, when Paul Evette and Ernest Schaeffer either purchased or took over the management of Buffet, depending on whom you read. Generally they retained the Buffet name but I have seen a couple of saxophones from the late 1800s on eBay that bore only the name Evette & Schaeffer.
Sometime in the 1920s or 30s, Buffet introduced a wooden student model, which they named Evette, and an intermediate model, which they named Evette & Schaeffer (probably so they could thoroughly confuse future generations of clarinetists). According to advertising literature from the 1930s, Evette & Schaeffer clarinets were made in the Paris factory where Buffet professional clarinets were made and were made by the same technicians. The Evettes, on the other hand, were made in a "new factory in La Couture Boussey" purchased by Buffet for this purpose. La Couture Boussey, BTW, happens to be where both the Leblanc and Malerne factories were located. This, plus the fact that, from the time Evettes were introduced until 1960, the Evette label read "Sponsored by Buffet" has led many to speculate that these clarinets were actually manufactured by one or both of these companies. With the most money on Malerne.
Buffet's distributor in the US was, for many years, Carl Fischer. In its catalog, Carl Fischer assigned model numbers to the various Buffet clarinets it handled. In the 1930s brochure I mentioned above, they referred to the E&S as an E13 and the (wood) Evette as an E10. I don't know whether Buffet also used these numbers at the time or whether they were entirely Fischer's creation. I suspect the latter but note that in the serial number lookup Buffet used to have on its site (for instruments made in its main factory only so Evettes weren't included), in the 1950s or 60s, the E&S clarinets were designated as E12. There is also evidence-based speculation, that some E&S models (those without the K-prefix to the serial number) were outsourced to the Malerne factory in the 40s and possibly 50s.
Creating a different kind of confusion, In 1955, Buffet introduced the polycylindrical bore professional model that if designated R13. This is actually apparently the first time BUFFET officially used this designation though Carl Fischer had referred to basic professional Buffets as R13 for years. Because of the significance in design change, it was desirable to distinguish between the new Buffet R13 and previous Carl Fischer Buffet R13s - leading some people to refer to the Fischer-designated instruments at "pre-R13s." But I digress. At this time, wood Evettes were still "Sponsored by." However, in 1960, Buffet began numbering Evettes with a D-prefix to the serial number. At this time, they also changed the Evette logo, dropping the "Sponsored by Buffet" and showing, instead EVETTE. This logo continued until Buffet changed the model designation to E11 in the 1980s. I have not seen a serial number list for Evettes made prior to 1960. I doubt one exists.
A few perhaps related random comments: (1) Presumably sometime prior to 1960, Buffet introduced a plastic Evette model. I have seen at least one with a "Sponsored by Buffet" logo. Eventually, Buffet would replace this logo with EVETTE. Whether this happened in 1960, I don't know but it seems logical to me. (2) There has been speculation that Evettes were made in the Malerne factory, if not actually by Malerne. AFAIK, Buffet has never acknowledged this. I find it interesting, however, that Robert Malerne died in 1973 and SML purchased the Malerne factory in 1975. The only serial number list for wood French Evettes that I have seen runs from 1960 through 1975. D35081 is the first number for 1975. Around this time, there seem to have been about 4,000 Evettes manufactured each year. The highest serial number I have seen for a French Evette is D41617. While perhaps on the high side, I think it could have been made in 1975 and, unless production dropped sharply around this time, almost certainly 1976 at the latest. (Another possible explanation? I have an Evette Master Model with a serial number D36xxx. The person who sold it to me told me that her parents had purchased it new from a music store in 1978. Also, the three D40xxx French Evettes I've seen are all Master Models. So maybe production did drop because Buffet lost its production facility and, until it was able to shift production to Germany, had to produce student models in its main factory. This is really speculation, though, and probably not correct. If anyone knows of Evettes that have high serial numbers and aren't Master Models, I'd like to hear from them.) In any case, sometime in the latter half of the 1970s, Buffet shifted (outsourced?) production of its student model instruments from France to the Schreiber factory in Germany. The shift occurred before the change in model designation from wood Evette to E11, wood Evette Master Model to E12 (not related to the current French E12) and plastic Evette to B12. There are some German EVETTE clarinets. These have the standard Evette logo but are marked "Made in W. Germany." Their serial numbers (the wood ones, anyway) are 6 digits with no letter prefix and they are the same design as the eventual Schreiber-made E11. Question: Is it possible that one reason for the shift to Germany was loss of access to the Malerne factory? (3) Vytas Krass had an E&S with a Kxxx serial number. The keywork clearly showed that the instrument was made no later than the 1930s. There are also K-prefix serial numbers dating from 1952 (actually earlier, I think). There are also some E&S clarinets with a B-prefix whose keywork is clearly post-1930. These clarinets are presumably from the 1940s but could possibly extend into the 1950s. I think I have seen a similar instrument with a D-prefix, not to be confused with D-prefix Evettes.) Their keywork appears identical to contemporary Malerne clarinets, leading to speculation that the instruments were manufactured by Malerne. Question: Could the disruptions of WWII have forced Buffet to outsource E&S clarinets to a factory, if not a company, that was already manufacturing Evettes?
Finally, my understanding of lineages. The French Evette (Evette Master Model) became the German Evette (Evette Master Model, though I have never seen a German Evette Master Model) but with significant changes in design. They really aren't the same clarinet. The German Evette (Evette Master Model) became the E11 (E12). The K-Prefix Evette and Schaeffer (E&S Master Model) became the E13 (E45, though the distinction appears to have been dropped fairly quickly).
According to Buffet promotional literature from the 1960s, the K-prefix E&S Master model was simply a production E&S that performed exceptionally well on its final tests. In other words, there was no difference in design or production process. While I have never seen any discussion of the Evette Master Model, I expect It was chosen in the same way.
I can't prove this, but I believe Buffet changed the design of its E&S sometime between K10500 and K11000, introducing the polycylindrical bore. For this reason, I think the best odds of finding a good E&S are likely among those numbered K11000 and up. And the very best odds are Master Models numbered K11000 and up. While a B- or D-prefix E&S might turn out fine, I think because of the earlier design (and the age), this is more likely to be hit-or -miss, with emphasis on the miss. Similarly, I am skeptical about E&S K-prefix models before around K11000 because it appears to me that from K5000 (maybe as early as K3500) through at least K10500, all E&S clarinets were designated Master Models so I think the designation meant something other than "exceptional performance." (Possibly cylindrical "Master" Bore?) Over the years, when I've heard people complain about a poorly performing E&S, it's almost always turned out that they either had a B-prefix or a Master Model numbered below K11000.
Best regards,
jnk
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: R6.5
Date: 2021-03-13 02:26
Strange-based on this and other threads I had decided my old Evette must be an anomaly, since it plays pretty well in tune (except in the altissimo and that’s on me). My father bought it for me in 1983 and my son plays it now well enough not to scare all the squirrels out of the back yard. The lower joint has serial #215xxx without any prefix, while the upper joint and bell read Evette/ Buffet Crampon. I now take that serial number to indicate a piece of a 1981 r13. I further deduce there was a Dr. Moreau or Frankenstein secretly improving clarinets in Philadelphia way back when, and somewhere out there I may have an as-yet unknown upper stack soul mate waiting to be found.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2021-03-13 08:19
An R13 would have the Buffet logo near the bottom of the front of the lower joint. Unless your lower joint has that logo, you probably have a (complete) German Evette, made after Buffet moved production of its student clarinets to Germany but shortly before Buffet adopted the E11 designation for those clarinets. Look very closely at the top of the back of the upper joint and see if you can see "Made in W. Germany" in very small letters. The serial number is consistent with a German made Evette and would suggest that it was new or close to new when your father bought it. It's been a long time since I looked at one of these but, as I recall, they had no logo on the lower joint and no serial number on the upper joint.
Best regards,
jnk
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
