 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: AaronD
Date: 2001-07-10 05:48
[Deleted by the Webmaster]
Make very, very sure that you are in the right if you ever decide to call someone a thief or crook.
Possession of formerly stolen property can be perfectly legal. If you suspect someone of dealing in stolen goods please let the authorities handle it.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-07-10 11:33
I do hope you've reported this to safeharbor at eBay. They'll shut down the auction so no one bids on the instrument.
Another thing to look for with stolen instruments that are running on eBay is a very low price and sometimes no case. A Ridenour clarinet ran a while ago that was supposedly "brand new" but without a case. The guy wanted $150.00 for it. These sell for $599.00 on the Brook Mays Website and come with a case. I put in a low bid (not high enough to meet his price) and he contacted me when the auction was over and offered it to me for my bid. I asked him about the case and he just said, "I don't know what happened to it." So, I backed away from the deal and was highly suspicious that it was stolen merchandise.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-07-10 13:39
Aaron, let the Police handle something like this.
Making a statement as you have, you could be liable for any number of lawsuits for defamation of character, slander, loss of earnings.... the list goes on & on.
Best,
mw
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Author: David
Date: 2001-07-10 16:46
He's just giving us a warning, mw. It's not stopping anybody from buying from him.
If they had a tuba stolen, shouldn't we also check that out? I'm sure if the clarinet is up for auction, the tuba might be also.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-07-10 17:38
David, please re-read what I wrote. I wasn't taking a "position" against Aaron. Far from it, I was trying to help Aaron. If Aaron isn't 18, his parents would probably thank me, too. It is very easy to get caught up in helping a friend & feeling as if you are a part of a situation --- sometimes commisserating is enough. (I commiserate with anybody who has had their instrument stolen. It doesn't matter to me whether it's a Clarinet, Tuba or PennyWhistle!)
{{ I have a significant amount of legal training, do you? }}
As I stated, the place to address stolen property is with the Police. Its not against the law to have suspicions. Certainly not. So, if a statement needs to be made about illegal activity, it should be addressed with the Police. The Internet is _NOT_ a substitute venue for an arrest, judge & jury.
Be advised that the law does allow for CIVIL REMEDIES against improper public statements/communications which can hurt or damage another person. The legal teminology for this type of action is TORT.
David, I think you need to learn about the difference between Free Speech & a tort. THe type of "free speech" that was shown here can wind up being very COSTLY.
Best,
mw
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Author: David
Date: 2001-07-10 19:04
Sorry about that. I see my mistake.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-07-10 19:13
David, I am 49 yo. We have that in common --- I make plenty of mistakes everyday. The trick is for you & I (& everybdoy for that matter) not to repeat them (or at least, too often) --- to learn from them. AND, there ain't no law against that! : )
Best,
mw
PS - Now, if I can just get my right index finger to _BEHAVE_ when called upon. My right id doing fine except when I practice Gb ! < lol >
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Author: AaronD
Date: 2001-07-10 20:41
i was simply meaning to have us buyers use caution when/if we would buy from this person on ebay. If one piece of merchandise is stolen, what else may be stolen that they are selling. Simply I was trying to say, use caution when dealing with person, there is the possibility of the prodoucts being stolen. And yes the poliece are serving warrants as we speak. I just want to guard therest of us and have others use caution when making purchases from this person. I fell This kind of statement is more suitable than my frist comments, am I correct in saying so MW???
so Use caution with this seller...
Aaron
PS I'm well over 18 so no worry about the age.....
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-07-10 20:54
Aaron, I understand your (noble) thought process & that you are trying to help us. There are some things which said in PRIVATE, _cannot_ be used against you. There are some things said in PUBLIC, which _can_ be used against you.
Whenever we use adjectives like "stolen" or verbs like "steal" in describing wares that somebody is elling or actions that a business took, we are opening ourselves up to problems. Even a word like "caution" when directed at a for-profit-business might be construed to have a more profound meaning (& result).
Aaron, I know your heart is in the RIGHT place.
Best,
mw
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-07-10 21:45
So, let me add my 2cents worth if I may. I learned the hard way about people wanting to sue you. That was another thread--so, Aaron, just back off and take mw's advice. You can still report the seller's id to eBay's safeharbor and be within your "safeharbor."
Also, remember that when we publish our "threads" here on Sneezy they become something that the public can read anytime they want to do so. But, thanks for the warning about the clarinet. I hope everything works out ok with it. It seems like it should be easy to take care of with the serial no. and everything.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-07-10 23:09
I was a co-Sysop (read: System Operator) years ago on a BB. On _that_ BBS it was possible to reference a POST after it was "logged" to the system. The person creating a post was the only one who could MINUS --- e.g. delete it. That was nice. Occasionally we all say something we wish we hadn't said, after all. : ) We all do it! BUT, its great to be able to remove your foot from your mouth when you need to do so. Best, mw
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Author: Terry Horlick
Date: 2001-07-11 01:46
Mark seems to be a sharp guy. I am sure that should someone post something and then have second thoughts he could contact Mark. Posts can then be removed (only for sound reasons I am sure) and made unavailable to the public. I do this occasionally on another BB I help to run.
I am not a lawyer, but it seems to me to poast a warning saying "be extra careful about dealing with Mr. X" could get one in serious legal trouble (libel). It would be better to say something like "I have spotted a stolen clarinet on e-Bay, be extra careful" and not name names. Then anyone buying a clarinet and uneasy about it could privately contact you. That would probably give you a lower chance of having to talk to a judge. But look at this <a href="http://www.cccba.org/dla32.htm">link on libel</a>. If you can proove your statements and don't care if you have to go to court, knock yourself out!
Lawyers out there, what do you say?
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-07-11 02:06
Terry said:
"If you can proove your statements and don't care if you have to go to court, knock yourself out!"
------------------------------
Agree 100%. Going to Court, paying Court costs, & attorney fees for yourself (& possibly the "injured" party, too) is NO FUN. I am no JD, but have the training.
Best,
mw
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Author: Royce
Date: 2001-07-11 05:14
Aaron,
This seller has more than 400 positive feedback comments on Ebay. He or she currently has 24 items up for auction. I see nothing to indicate that this person is selling stolen merchandise, or operating a "non registered pawn shop" (where did you get that?)
Did your friend consider contacting the seller and advising him that the instrument had been stolen? I buy items from flea markets, yard sales, etc. and sell many of them on Ebay myself. I wouldn't buy anything that I suspected was stolen, but it's certainly conceivable that I could wind up with a stolen item sometime. If someone contacted me to tell me that, I would certainly cooperate fully with the police.
HOWEVER, if someone posted my Ebay username in a public forum, and said that I was selling stolen merchandise, I would hire a lawyer, real darn quick. If this seller is really "fencing" stolen goods, then you have nothing to worry about. If not, you better hope he is a nice, forgiving person.
Royce
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Author: Phil
Date: 2001-07-11 05:47
How far can someone go to inform the public about a seller if they have first hand info that they have sold a stolen good?
Lets say if you went to a store and you were buying a widget, and all the widgets that that store sold were all defective and broke after a week. Is it then allright for someone to go and tell their friends to not buy widgets from that store because they are defective and will break after a week?????
If a store is selling a defective product then wouldn't you want to tell your friends about it so they wouldn't also end up possibly buying a defective product?????
At what point is the spreading of the news that the products that that store sells are defective libel, and then subject to legal action???? When is informing the public about a seller's actions, if based soley in first hand fact, subject to legal action????
Aaron's first comments are very abrasive and seem very slanderous against the seller because of this one incident......however if this seller had bought this clarinet from the person/s who stole it, isn't there the possibility of something else that that person is selling being stolen goods??? And then is it allright for someone to say for you to use caution when buying goods from this person....not saying "do not buy from this person", but in fact for them to just use caution???? Is tha allright???? mw...what do you think????
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-07-11 06:15
Phil, I always think about one thing when I envision LEGAL PROBLEMS.
I envision this thing called JUSTICE. A Court of Law is where JUSTICE FOR ALL is "meted" out.
I learned a long time ago that Justice is a Judge (with no Jury) rendering a DECISION in a court case. OR, its a Jury rendering a Verdict. Now, too, we can add to that the decision of a (binding) Arbitrator. Outside of these 3 possibilties there is NO JUSTICE. We are raised with the notiion that this theory of right & wrong, JUSTICE, is infallible & is something we can always seek as protection from the ills of the world. We all believe in this idea of JUSTICE.
However, I can assure everyone that JUSTICE is nothing more than an answer receved in a Court of Law. Sometimes, that's too bad ---- as all too often the guilty are set free, the innoncent are imprisoned, a person committing a wrongful act is rewarded, & a paryt who has suffered great wrong is further punished. OUR LEGAL SYSTEM IS IMPERFECT.
Therefore, we all do best to steer clear of situations where we suffer damage or be punsihed by a Court of Law.
At some point, we all must make our own decsisions & draw our own conclusions about how far we should go with a thought --- such as "righting wrongs".
Best,
mw
PS - I do believe we all want our system of Justice to work --- that is a philosophical statement. I also think its true. Right should always overcome wrong.
PPS - Even if Justice works, it can be very expensive to defend one's actions & statements. One can easily go bankrupt in the process. Moral victory gained while suffereing financial loss is hardly palatable --- it can be very hollow.
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Author: David
Date: 2001-07-11 12:12
The wording of ANYTHING can bring up a court summons if taken the wrong way. We simply have to be careful of what we say and what we do, and even then someone might want to file a lawsuit.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-07-11 13:36
The old expression "Loose Lips, Sink Ships" was all about keeping a secret, but my lawyer friends & business associates tell me it applies to just about anything these days. Best, mw
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Author: David
Date: 2001-07-11 14:37
At least the original post was deleted by the webmaster, at least on my screen anyway. A good suggestion for ALL forums and BBs would be the delete message option.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-07-11 15:29
It is available in Classified Ads ! Best, mw
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-07-11 15:56
The Classified ads don't have the interactive traffic this board does ... putting passwords for each person wanting to post, etc. would incur more overhead on the system and a support nightmare.
Treat the bboard as you would a letter to the editor or email to a mailing list - once it's in there is pretty much a permanent record.
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Author: Bill
Date: 2001-07-12 10:26
The horn is re-listed on eBay, so what happened to the warrants, etc. ??
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