 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2020-12-18 09:52
I looked back in the BBoard logs just a bit, but can't find the detail I'm looking for.
Admittedly, I've been playing clarinet for enough time that I didn't really think I needed the advice of "taking in more mouthpiece until you squeak" - but I decided to try it just to see what people are talking about.
Here's the problem...on my setup, I can take in mouthpiece all the way until my bottom lip is resting on my ligature screw, my upper lip at the beak bevel line...still no squeak during any notes or tonguing.
When I do that - it pushes my tongue way back in my mouth, and tires my embouchure quickly, but I'm sure I'm missing some detail of what I'm supposedly accomplishing. What is this "take in mouthpiece until you squeak" really supposed to do? What principle is supposed to be learned?
I must admit that the altissimo notes really jump right out, but playing this way seems terribly impractical, and I lose the capability of more delicate inflections.
Just curious,
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-12-18 14:41
I don't want to say that I don't believe you are doing it correctly but this is an explanation:
As we know, the reed and mouthpiece are joined together from the bottom of the reed upon the table, all the way up to the lay. The lay is everything from the point where the reed and mouthpiece diverge up to the tip of the mouthpiece. So every mouthpiece has that POINT between reed ON and reed OFF. Since we must exert some force on the vibrating part of the reed for there to be any control of the sound (musical notes) the embouchure MUST out of necessity reside on the vibrating side of that POINT of contact. If the embouchure is placed ON or BEYOND the contact point (non-vibrating part of reed resting on the mouthpiece) the sound that will come out is uncontrolled and will be something other than a musical note.......call it a squawk, squeak, grating wail, whatever.
The object of snugging up to that point is that you are using the totality (as much as practical) of the lay. Tom Puwalski (has posted to this Board often in the past) stated that he is able to seamlessly move from one mouthpiece of one set of dimensions to another of completely different dimensions (making reed strength changes of course) using this technique. Also David Shifrin (a pretty decent clarinet player) advocates using ALL of the lay that you've paid for.
Now, you CAN play quite nicely NOT using all of the mouthpiece's lay (playing closer to the tip than the full length of the lay) and many players do. But you have to ask yourself WHY do I use an 18mm long lay when I play it like a 15mm length mouthpiece? And there are some issues with the resonance being dampened playing "shorter."
But if you can defy physics........please post a video because we'd all like to see that.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2020-12-18 19:00
Paul,
Thanks for your response and explanation of what the exercise is supposed to achieve.
Clearly there must be an explanation for the results I'm getting, and the lack of a squawk. One which doesn't defy physics.
As far as posting a video - three things: First, I'm somewhat anonymous and don't do such things. Secondly, a video would do no good whatsoever (as you can't visually see my embouchure even if sitting right next to me.) Lastly, I have no patience for this type of challenge. I have tested the method in the privacy of my own home and have achieved results of which I was not expecting. I then posted to ask for help in understanding the purpose of the endeavor in case I misunderstood. I am not trying to prove anything to anyone, nor challenge anyone...but to simply gain understanding.
Warmest Regards,
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-12-18 19:24
Sorry, I was being a bit mean.
I did not want there to be any misunderstanding amongst others that may be reading this (I have seen that assertion before). Once the reed is unencumbered by a damper at a place before it meets the mouthpiece it cannot make a sound that sounds like a clarinet when air moves passed it.
I had a student that folded his lip so far over his teeth that he caused excessive damping to the reed pretty much whatever he did. With a year's worth of work on this he achieved about two minutes of a really nice sound and immediately reverted back (perhaps too many years of bad habit prior to our meeting). He never got it.
Maybe you provide the proper fulcrum back behind your lower teeth and this is confusing you.
Visualization is less direct but may help you SEE the spot. Just slip a piece of standard notebook paper between reed and mouthpiece (just a little section will do......straight edge facing down). Where the paper stops is the point where things come together. If there is contact of your teeth/lower lip beyond that point, there is no way to control the vibration of the reed and it will vibrate uncontrollably.
....................Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2020-12-18 21:10)
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2020-12-19 22:52
I think that "Take in more mouthpiece until you squeak..." and then "back off until your don't, and that's how much mouthpiece to take in" is a good teaching rule of thumb, but it's taken on different meaning for me over the years as I've advanced, and I share some of these learned caveats as a preamble to this teaching rule of thumb.
I tend to first point out how the embouchure's pressure is not best metaphorically represented as a clamp--with simply opposite and opposing pressures, but rather a rubber band, where force from all sides is key.
I have found that with these rubber band metaphors first established, where the squeak point occurs, and that perfect amount of mouthpiece to take in differs. 
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Author: Qladstone
Date: 2020-12-20 03:45
If the objective is to make the fullest sound then why not just experiment with different positions and use the ear as a guide? "Take in more mouthpiece until you squeak... and then back off until your don't" but of course the backing off part can be done to varying degrees and surely we don't mean to back off so little that we might accidentally reach the point where we would squeak?
In this video https://youtu.be/2e6aNdClFGQ?t=529 at 8:51 Ridenour states that he takes in a very small amount of reed.
In this video https://youtu.be/tRo1QU6L2rQ?t=61 Etheridge recommends taking in as much reed as possible until the fulcrum point.
The funny thing is that they are both are trying the solve the same problem of eliminating undertones, yet the two of them (Ridenour and Etheridge) use completely opposite approaches as to how much reed to take in!
So what are we missing here? Are there two entirely different schools of thought and is the "Take in more mouthpiece until you squeak... and then back off until your don't" rule not as universal as suggested?
And yet calling it a squeak is also very misleading because we can intentionally (or unintentionally) make "squeaks" by playing the overtones. Surely that is not undesirable?
Post Edited (2020-12-20 03:53)
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Author: Max S-D
Date: 2020-12-20 10:57
Yeah, I wouldn't take it too literally. I don't think there is a single hard and fast rule about how much mouthpiece one should take in, but it's worth seeing what feels comfortable and what can sound good, I would say.
I would say "take in more mouthpiece until it sounds awful, then back off a little" as a strategy for seeing if it would be feasible to take in more than you are using. There is usually a point at which the tone quality will take an abrupt nosedive.
For many years I did not take in much mouthpiece and that worked fine for me. Lately I have been taking in a fair bit more, but not all the way to the "break point" and that works well for me now. On the saxophone, I take in mouthpiece pretty much all the way to the fulcrum point and that works for me.
Assuming you are a fairly experienced player, I think you kind of just have to do what works and is comfortable and that might change over time.
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