 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2020-10-17 03:14
How many advanced players or professionals still take lessons, or at least consult on a regular basis with someone else about their playing? It seems logical; a knowledgeable observer might see or hear things the player might miss while focused on playing. A good teacher might also have broader or more detailed knowledge, even if an advanced student is technically a better player than they are.
In athletics it's common: tennis pros have personal coaches, boxers have trainers, baseball players rely on pitching or batting coaches to improve their technique or avoid errors creeping in, etc. Today I learned of a top male singer who still has a regular vocal coach, and it made me wonder how common that kind of thing is in the music world.
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2020-10-17 07:42
The last lessons I took were during my Masters program 40 years ago. Then I spent a teaching career in Northern Manitoba, where I was basically the only clarinet guy. With my summers off as a band director, I always returned to my roots in NY to play professionally (still do) . There I would consult with fellow players.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-10-17 22:08
Interesting topic.
I knew several really terrific musicians back in high school (and beyond a bit) who swore they would ALWAYS take lessons. The idea being that it is a good idea to have someone else to evaluate what is going on. I have lost track of those folks so I don't know the outcome, but it was interesting to hear folks voice that idea early in their careers (one IS in a major symphony orchestra......not clarinet though).
I have also heard a story, perhaps on this board, of a symphony cellist who developed some raggedness of technique and went to an amazing teacher for a lesson. In the first few minutes the teacher pointed out that he/she was applying too much thumb pressure. That immediately cleared up the problem and the student went to putting his/her cello away. The teacher asked if she/he would want to continue the lesson since there was still fifty minutes on the clock (already paid for). The cellist said no, the problem was fixed.
Lastly I'd say we all "stay in school" by asking colleagues for input, experimenting with how we phrase, just remaining inquisitive and open to new ideas. God forbid any of us get to the point where we think we know everything already...........what fun is that?
................Paul Aviles
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2020-10-21 09:45
Continuing education is important, but there are so many ways of doing that. It seems rare for pros to keep taking lessons once they get established and probably rarer still that it is talked about.
One teacher who apparently had some top names coming to him well into their careers was Kal Opperman. Ricardo studied with him when he already had the job at the Met. Stanley Drucker apparently stopped by once or twice to "play duets" but Kal told him he knew what he was up to and that was the end of that!
As a clarinetist and teacher I am always looking for new ways to understand and communicate how our instrument works. I audited a wonderful week long online workshop this past summer that featured Yehuda Gilad and some of his top former students as faculty. I gained some new perspective and learned a few very effective teaching techniques.
I have thought several times over the past few years of taking some lessons. Now would be an ideal time in some ways as all these top players have more time on their hands than usual during the pandemic. So far, I've always ended up not doing it. My excuses are that I should be a little better before I do, and that I don't have the time to devote myself to the demands that a top teacher would put on me. I feel that I am still making good progress on my own - learning how to keep improving one's teaching means continuing to learn how to practice better - but I am sure there are some blind spots that could use a little light.
I have taken coaching as part of chamber music ensembles the last few years, with mixed results, but it has always been interesting.
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Author: rmk54
Date: 2020-10-21 17:40
Stanley Drucker apparently stopped by once or twice to "play duets" but Kal told him he knew what he was up to and that was the end of that!
------------------------------------------
I'm curious: What was Stanley "up to"?
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2020-10-22 03:04
> ------------------------------------------
> I'm curious: What was Stanley "up to"?
Getting lessons without calling it that or paying for them.
These stories come from this book:
https://tinyurl.com/y3cahy9k
Hopefully not distorted too badly in my memory. I read it last year!
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Author: rmk54
Date: 2020-10-22 19:20
I think you are confusing Stanly Drucker with Benny Goodman. Or perhaps Kal did.
I can't imagine Stanley trying to stiff anyone.
OTOH Goodman was famous for this. Russianoff told me that he threw Goodman out of his studio for a similar reason.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2020-10-23 00:01
Why would Drucker need lessons from Kal? While still in his teens, didn't Drucker record Bartok's Contrasts (and Stravinsky's Story of a Soldier?),at age 15 beat Marcellus in the audition for Curtis, and at 16 obtain a position in the Indianapolis Symphony? What would Kal teach him? Hand position? Embouchere placement? Russianoff said Drucker as a kid would cut through all the method books he placed on the stand as long as he kept handing him cookies. Apparently he could sight read almost anything. Wouldn't the case be more like when young Raphael Mendez went to cornet whiz Herbert Clarke, and Clarke told him, "kid, you should be teaching me"?
Post Edited (2020-10-23 00:15)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2020-10-23 00:31
rmk54 wrote:
> I think you are confusing Stanly Drucker with Benny Goodman. Or
> perhaps Kal did.
>
Or maybe Denise Gainey (the author of the book nellsonic cited) did.
Karl
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2020-10-23 03:39
I'll see if I can find the book and double check. I'm almost positive that Benny is not clarinetist in this version of the story.
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Author: EbClarinet
Date: 2020-10-26 06:36
There 2-3 things going on in this thread.
Stiffing some 1 out of free lessons isn't good, but on the initial post, that's what this board is for. There have been some good points made. Also, there is the envy and jealousy @ work with people some times.
No matter how good u r, I still think it's good 2 check in with other clarinetists 2 keep up with your skills ad craft. There jut needs 2 b understanding that u're not cheating some 1 4 $$$ and all of that.
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/mbtldsongministry/
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2020-10-26 08:36
The book hasn't turned up yet but I have a few more places to look. I don't think the story was framed as avoiding paying for lessons. It was more about not wanting to call it that due to ego. Yes, it amounts to the same thing for teacher, but ego will cause us to do all kinds of silly things! I do want to make sure I've gotten the story right though. If anyone else has that book, feel free to chime in.
Here's Anthony McGill having a recent conversation that touches on the overall topic with Richard Hawkins, his own former teacher:
https://youtu.be/KynNmfM6UKI?t=640
Anders
Post Edited (2020-10-26 13:51)
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Author: DaphnisetChloe
Date: 2020-10-26 11:58
Do any recordings of Kalmen Opperman playing/performing exist? Have heard endless comments about how amazing his playing in lessons was and it would be great to actually hear some. For instance, recently a recording of Donald Montanaro was uploaded to YouTube and it was amazing to hear (incredibly beautiful sound!)
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2020-10-26 16:44
Hi nellsonic. that's an interesting interview, and thank you for the post. McGill draws the same analogy with sports coaching and says he thinks it probably would be good for musicians, but he doesn't seem convinced. He does record himself and listen, then puts on his teacher hat, so to speak, and teaches himself from that degree of separation.
Maybe the comparison with athletes doesn't quite hold up. Playing an instrument isn't inherently a competitive pursuit. The prep involves the individual, and performance (usually) is a collaboration. It's subtly different from sports.
Another point: the best coaches or teachers are rarely the greatest practitioners. Great players are sometimes poor teachers, perhaps because they've never had to think about how they do some things they do, they just did them. A great teacher has to have a clear and detailed framework of how things work - and be able to communicate it to different people.
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