 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: kehammel
Date: 2020-10-07 05:33
I wonder if someone more knowledgeable can help me with this question: does the altissimo range of the clarinet become progressively too flat going up the scale when using the standard harmonic fingerings?
I recently took up the B flat clarinet just for fun, to play Balkan and Klezmer music. I’m an experienced amateur double reed player, but I don’t know much about the clarinet. I’m playing an Albert system F. Barbier instrument from the 1920s with a cylindrical approx. 14.6 mm bore. It was recently overhauled by a skilled technician.
Here’s what happens: I roll my top finger down while playing clarion forked F, also adding right hand G#, and the harmonic, meaning altissimo D, pops out in tune. Doing the same with clarion F sharp, the altissimo E flat also comes out OK, just a little flat (so playing it 236G# actually works better than 234G#). Then I do the above while playing clarion G, and the E comes out nearly a quarter step flat according to my tuner.
I think I have a decent embouchure (I should mention that I play double lip, but all of the above also happens when I use single lip). Putting a little more reed in the mouth, pointing the chin and raising the tongue to say ee makes the altissimo E speak fine, but always very flat. The only way I can get it up to pitch is to bite.
An alternate fingering given for altissimo E at the woodwind.org fingering chart site does work well: while covering the left thumb hole, open the throat A key and the right hand “trill” key.
I can also get a good E if I finger altissimo F and relax my embouchure a little. As for getting a good altissimo F, I’m still working on that!
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-10-07 05:42
If you're using a contemporary mouthpiece, there may be a mismatch (bore dia., overall length, tone chamber size or shape).
That'd be a guess.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2020-10-07 09:06
I'm not experienced with Albert System instruments, but on contemporary French system clarinets the high F being dodgy would lead me to not be at all surprised that the E right under it is very flat. The standard advice here in the US would be to be sure that your tongue is high enough in back. You mention the ee syllable, but there may still be room to raise the back of the tongue (the portion under the molars) higher to positive effect. Sometimes, once that is set, adjusting the position of the middle of the tongue can be helpful as well.
As a double reed player you may also need to focus on keeping the air moving steadily and more quickly than you are accustomed to. Blowing energetically through a small straw can help to give you the right idea.
Also a slightly harder reed might be useful, at least in getting this particular issue sorted.
The altissimo register is where one really learns to play the clarinet. It is natural for it to be finicky if one is out of shape or less experienced. Persistence and attentive patience are key.
Let us know how it goes!
Anders
Post Edited (2020-10-07 09:09)
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Author: Ken Lagace
Date: 2020-10-07 16:51
Acoustically, higher pitches vibrate higher up the tube. Like Paul said, the mouthpiece area is too large, but not by much. If the length seems appropriate, line the bore with scotch tape as a test.
I slightly disagree with nellsonic, in that the altissimo should play with the softest reeds if all else, embouchure, air, mouthpiece facing, correct amount of mouthpiece in, etc, are good.
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2020-10-08 01:05
Using the RH C/F pinky key raises it a bit on my Buffet R13. But I rarely use that. For high A I use RH C#/F# pinky.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2020-10-08 01:40
Open the throat G# or A key if that helps.
If it's still very flat, then play an altissimo F instead (by adding the C#/G# key to the regular altissimo E fingering) if that gives you an in tune E.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: smokindok
Date: 2020-10-08 05:52
Chris P’s recommendation is spot on. Adding the throat G# key is the way I get my effer’s altissimo E in tune.
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Author: kehammel
Date: 2020-10-08 06:39
Thanks for the tips, everyone. I got started on clarinet by corresponding with some people who play Greek/Turkish clarinet and, like them, I tend to use #1.5 reeds, open mouthpieces such as the Fobes Jazz, and very short barrels. Sometimes I even use #1 reeds. No doubt this causes all kinds of acoustic problems. It doesn't bother me too much, because I mostly play baroque bassoon, which could be described as an intonational nightmare, and I'm used to supporting/lipping notes into tune as needed.
I did try to go as far as I could in the direction of a "normal" setup for the tuning tests I described: #2 reed, Fobes 2L mouthpiece, and 60 mm Muncy synthetic diamond barrel. I don't have a longer barrel, and I tend to be slightly flat even with the 60 mm Muncy I have.
That tendency to be flat probably indicates that the way I play is somehow different than what classical clarinetists do. Yet it works pretty well except for the problem I contacted the forum about. The issue may be that I like the instrument to be as free blowing as possible. I'll do anything, repeat anything, to avoid the extreme sense of back pressure that a harder setup can give. I hear that some saxophonists who double on clarinet also complain about this.
So when I read nellsonic's comment that the altissimo is where one really learns to play clarinet, I thought aha, looks like I'm screwed; the clarinet is just a different beast and I'll have to carry on without actually learning it properly! I am doing this just for fun, you see.
Paul, the idea about a mismatch between the mouthpiece and the instrument is interesting. I also have a vintage Fontaine mouthpiece that gives exactly the same altissimo problem, but I don't know if it's necessarily a good acoustic match with the horn. It's very open at 1.4 mm. I'm also wondering if the barrels are contributing to the problem. Yet I suspect it's mainly how I play, as if the mouthpiece were simply a large bassoon reed.
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Author: kehammel
Date: 2020-10-08 06:44
PS- Chris P. and Smokindok, I just tried adding the throat G# for the altissimo E and it works. Thanks!
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Author: kehammel
Date: 2020-10-08 07:05
The altissimo E is even better opening the throat A instead of the G#, and then adding the side C# key gives a good F. Thanks, again, folks.
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Author: EbClarinet
Date: 2020-10-11 18:37
In order 2 get the pitch up in the altissimo register, u're going to have 2 use a stiffer reed like a Vandoren 4 or comparable reed. Tighten the corners of youth mouth extremely and then bite like crazy. I was complimented on the technique when I played Elsa's on Eb Clarinet.
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/mbtldsongministry/
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2020-10-11 20:58
Hi EbClarinet. It's interesting that your equipment and embouchure prescription seem necessary and works for you. I wonder if it has something to do with the Eb clarinet? - I've never played one.
On regular soprano instruments, a stiffer reed and tighter embouchure generally are not necessary for stable, tuned altissimo. I can only speak for myself with surety, but if I can easily play to E7, in tune, with my usual not very hard setup and usual quite relaxed embouchure, than I expect anyone can.
On my R13's, the standard E6 is in tune, but the standard F and F# fingerings above are flat and need modifications.
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