 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: ruben
Date: 2020-10-07 18:45
I had a student not that long ago that started out on the clarinet by playing Klezmer. After a few years, he decided to study Classical music with me ..and a far more prestigious teacher (easy enough to find!). From the very first, I tried to move him away from the vibrato he had been playing with for years. "Why can't I play the clarinet with a vibrato?" he asked, which is a fair enough question. I was at a loss to answer. "Because it's considered vulgar: in bad taste." That was my lame answer. The how of vibrato has been dealt with often in this forum, but what about the "why", or better still: the "why you shouldn't". I said to my student that the clarinet doesn't lend itself to vibrato, which is as lame an answer as my first one.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
Post Edited (2020-10-07 18:46)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2020-10-07 20:11
Jack Brymer used vibrato.
Others do too, both as soloists and in chamber or orchestral settings.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2020-10-07 20:40
No reason not to if it's done well. There are a lot more examples in addition to the ones Chris mentions. I think the clarinet is unique among orchestral woodwinds in that it can be played equally acceptably with or without vibrato.
I find it interesting in my own case that I generally don't use vibrato on clarinet (except sometimes for sustained, especially expressive passages) but it takes a huge amount of self-discipline to make myself play sax for any length of time without using it. I can't explain why.
Karl
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ruben
Date: 2020-10-07 20:56
Karl: Would you say Coltrane and Bird used vibrato? Johnny Hodges actually didn't; he used glissandi.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ruben
Date: 2020-10-07 20:58
Chris: Brymer, Kell, de Peyer used vibrato; all three English players. But their tone is no longer the flavour of the day.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JTJC
Date: 2020-10-07 21:17
I’ve never understood why vibrato seems acceptable on every instrument except the clarinet. What’s the difference? The most expressive instruments (violin, voice?) would be lost without it and nobody could imagine a great soloist on these not using it as part of their expression. Just seems like a long-standing prejudice still held by some players and schools.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2020-10-07 23:52
In the early 1900s, oboist Leon Goossens was criticised for using vibrato. Nowadays it's unusual to hear an oboist not using vibrato.
As for clarinet, there are fairly recent recordings of big Romantic era orchestral works where some clarinettists use vibrato.
It's all very well using vibrato, but it's also a case of where, when and how to use it and not laying it on with a JCB.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: marcia
Date: 2020-10-08 02:26
>I’ve never understood why vibrato seems acceptable on every instrument except >the clarinet.
French horns are also played without vibrato.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: rmk54
Date: 2020-10-08 03:12
French horns are also played without vibrato
------------------------------------------
Apparently you have never heard the Czech Philharmonic.
@graham: Are you saying that Frank Cohen never uses vibrato? Listen to his recording of the Debussy Rhapsody.
Other "classical" clarinetists that use(d) vibrato:
Harold Wright
Robert Marcellus (Occasionally; subtle but definitely there)
Ricardo Morales
Larry Combs
Richard Stoltzman
Louis Cahuzac
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: brycon
Date: 2020-10-08 03:37
Quote:
I was at a loss to answer. "Because it's considered vulgar: in bad taste." That was my lame answer.
Curious why you consider your answer lame. If you mean it's a lame reason for putting a complete kibosh on an expressive technique, I agree. If you mean it's lame because there must be a better answer out there, I'm not so sure.
Some people might come up with a pseudo-scientific explanation--just like how people here justify their mouthpiece preference by "higher overtones are the only way to project to the back of the hall"--but in the end, those types of things are simply justifications for a personal preference.
From a pedagogical standpoint, one reason to avoid vibrato at an early stage (and saxophone players are especially problematic here) is that it can become a substitute for other types of expression. The few times I've worked with saxophonists in a masterclass setting, I've asked them to play a phrase without vibrato; they're usually shocked by the dullness of their playing. After they can make a good phrase-shape with their air, I have them add the vibrato back in as a complementary component in the expression. In the past, I've found this exercise to be rather beneficial.
At any rate, happy teaching!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jarmo Hyvakko
Date: 2020-10-08 07:37
Don't use vibrato as a substitute to phrasing. The same applies to rubato. Always try to express the form of the music by phrasing. Vibrato and rubato are just flavors.
I attended a masterclass of Karl Leister some time in the last millennium. After one day's work there was this situation when we students gathered around the master to ask questions. Leister said: "...and we clarinetists are the last dinosaurs, who don't use the vibrato..." I interrupted: "don't we?" He answered: "no we don't".
(Of course after the warm laughter he rounded his opinion to "occasionally in french music, in jazzy passages etc...)
Jarmo Hyvakko, Principal Clarinet, Tampere Philharmonic, Finland
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: seabreeze
Date: 2020-10-08 07:43
Just a few questions: Do conductors often call for clarinetists to play with vibrato or are they mostly indifferent to this? Do any conductors ever say to the clarinetists, "now on that phrase I want you to match the vibrato of the oboe (or flute, or violin)"?
Is vibrato on clarinet something that should be taught early on or should it be left to the player to explore at relatively advanced stages of their development?
Is it possible that some players can handle vibrato and others can't? (Owing to temperament, taste, judgment,etc.)
Post Edited (2020-10-08 08:02)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ruben
Date: 2020-10-08 09:12
brycon: "lame" in that I was just pretty much repeating what I had always been told: thus the "it's considered"...
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ruben
Date: 2020-10-08 09:35
Seabreeze: When the great conductor, Celibidache, went back to Romania after the fall of the Ceausescu regime to conduct the State Orchestra, he asked its famous clarinetist, Popa, NOT to use any vibrato. The latter found that difficult but complied.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Liquorice
Date: 2020-10-08 10:14
On a few occasions Nikolaus Harnoncourt asked me to use vibrato. (He's well-known as a pioneer in Historically Informed Performance Practice- get your heads around that!) Other than that I have never been asked by a conductor to use vibrato. It seems that many conductors assume that the clarinet "doesn't do" vibrato.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Alexis
Date: 2020-10-08 12:08
When I listen to singers, the vibrato I hear occurs as a consequence of increased volume/intensity. It seems more related to amplitude than pitch as well (more a pulsing rather than an oscillation in pitch).
I think on clarinet our equivalent of singer vibrato is the strength of harmonics - the increase in complexity (and edge) in the sound to signify intensity. I can’t comment on other instruments but I find that vibrato on clarinet weakens this intensity. Sometimes that’s useful, to change the colour of the sound/softening it. Strangely, I find the ‘weakening’ of the sound similar to the lightness of a singer’s portamento rather than *their* vibrato.
That being said, I don’t use it very often. Because it is not the norm for me, I find when I do use it, it sounds like a mannerism and distracts from the music. For me its possible to lighten the sound/change colour without using, which sounds more coherent to my ears.
I think someone who plays consistently with vibrato actually has a bit more license as an expressive tool - they can vary the speed and width, and even use no vibrato effectively. I also wonder if someone who used a diaphragmatic vibrato well (anyone??) could actually mimic closer than sense of reinforced intensity that a singer gets (because the fluctuation would be more related to dynamics rather than pitch).
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ruben
Date: 2020-10-08 12:33
Seabreeze: Thomas Beecham was fond of saying, when he conducted the Orchestre National in France, "I wish the French horns didn't sound so French!" They moved away from vibrato when Myron Bloom settled in France in the 70's, under his influence.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ruben
Date: 2020-10-08 12:35
Jarmo: Leister didn't approve of vibrato, as you so rightly implied. With a tone as glorious as his was during his prime, he didn't ( need it. Why put plaster on a beautiful stone wall?
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ruben
Date: 2020-10-08 12:39
Chris: Maybe the wide bore 1010s lent themselves more to vibrato. Their tone was less dense. -just a thought...
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Hurstfarm
Date: 2020-10-08 16:22
Emma Johnson is another English user of vibrato. Here she discusses the case for it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxsAGSSUaj8&list=PL606233D81280A6FB&index=27
The story about Richard Muhlfeld, who inspired Brahms, is corroborated by a story in Jack Brymer’s autobiography. An elderly viola player, who had played with Muhlfeld as a dep in the Joachim Quartet, described him as having “a rich, full sound and a very expressive vibrato.”
Post Edited (2020-10-08 16:22)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Matt74
Date: 2020-10-09 08:56
I’m sure I’m going to make someone mad...
I’ve never understood how vibrato could be controversial, one way or the other, on any instrument. It’s one of those “rules” that aren’t really a rule. Bad TASTE is bad taste, but that’s entirely different. Honestly, I think it’s a manufactured controversy. I can understand people liking, or not liking it, or thinking it’s appropriate for this, but not that - that’s to be expected; but to turn it into some kind of moral imperative, as is sometimes done, is going to far. Most people don’t.
Clarinet is very expressive and pretty, so it’s not really necessary. I can’t say I notice one way or the other. Saxophonists on the other hand have to use it to cover up that awful C* sound. *ducks behind desk*
- Matthew Simington
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2020-10-09 09:59
Hence I always recommend C** or D instead of the bog standard C*.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Matt74
Date: 2020-10-10 06:38
From now on I’ll always think of it as “The Bog Standard”. LOL
- Matthew Simington
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ruben
Date: 2020-10-11 16:52
Some people claim they play with no vibrato, but when they hear a recording of themselves they actually hear a bit of vibrato now and then in their playing. This is an argument in favour of the fact that vibrato is a natural element of music-making.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: EbClarinet
Date: 2020-10-11 18:26
My 7th grade band method book taught different types/kinds/styles of vibrato. I tried it with breath/air support and didn't feel either way about it. My jr hi band teacher (an excellent flautist) didn't teach it 2 us but when she played she used it.
Eddie Daniels uses vibrato but he's solely a jazz clarinetist with a jazz tone quality, so it's accepted.
My college band director didn't let the 1st chair clarinet student play the solo because she use vibrato. He let the professor of bassoon play the solo with the band. I wasn't in band that year but he's a trumpet player/organist. The clarinet has a Yamaha clarinet and her tone quality was collegiate but not Buffet.
I se vibrato on Eb Sopranino Sax, I play - albeit lip vibrato though.
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/mbtldsongministry/
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: mark.pinner
Date: 2020-10-18 06:22
I was under the impression that older clarinet mouthpieces, wood, from the period had been found, and teeth marks on the top, lateral, suggest that players may very well have used vibrato. I read this in some sort of article, or conference paper, years ago 20+. Beware of absolute rules.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2020-10-23 22:41
I like Corrado Guiffredi's way of using the vibrato. Not very often, but where appropriate and without sacrificing the tone. Clarinet players that use vibrato extensively typically have a thin tone and a weak embo.
The clarinet itself has such a rich tone that vibrato is not needed as for string instruments and the conical bore wind instruments.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-10-24 00:07
The Habanera is really quite beautiful! Thanks for posting. A very surprising rendering by Artie Shaw that I had never heard before.
.................Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
