 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2020-09-26 23:04
Hi,
I wondered if anyone might have experience of getting the settings right on a Zoom H1n and Canon DSLR so that clarinet recording goes well?
I have a Canon 5D Mkii and I have been trying to get the settings in the camera and the gain and volume knob on the H1n right, but I'm getting in a bit of a knot.
Thanks!
Jennifer
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Author: Chris_C ★2017
Date: 2020-09-26 23:47
I deduce that you are feeding the Zoom to the Canon for recording? AGC on cameras (I don't know the Canon specifically) tends to be very fierce, so you get no volume changes at all.
What I do for recording performances is to record sound and vision separately. I use a Zoom H2 for sound - and I find that the first AGC setting on it is pretty good - it prevents overloading and the time constants are long enough that quiet passages stay quiet. In parallel I record the video on a camera (or camera phone), and then edit them together. The poor quality sound on the camera is very useful because the Zoom sound can be visually lined up with it in the video editor - and then I mute it and export the composite.
Over a period of, say, 1 hour, the separate recordings don't drift relative to one another, so you only have to sync at one point - nothing like the old days of film and tape...
Chris
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2020-09-26 23:52
Hi Chris,
Thanks for that.
Unfortunately I'm not allowed to do that as I'm recording for an ABRSM performance exam and no editing is allowed. I'm meant to just record and then upload the file to the ABRSM server un-edited.
This is complicated a bit by the fact that my camera only does 1080p and 480p and they want 720p but I've written to ask if I could do a file conversion just to bring 1080p down to 720p.
Anyway, the thing seems to be that I have to get it all set up so it is right first time, inside the camera.
I tried following this tutorial:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UetssGT9g8
but the sound comes our very quiet if I do that.
I wondered if anyone else might be doing the same? Since all exams have gone to video submission at the moment, I figured this was probably a hot topic.
The ABRSM recommends smartphones and tablets for videoing but I can't use those as they have LED backlit screens which give me really ghastly headaches after a few minutes exposure. That's why Im fighting with slightly complex equipment for the job.
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Author: Peter B
Date: 2020-09-27 00:35
For connecting the Zoom to your DSLR, you may need to use an attenuator cable. The output signal of the Zoom is far to strong for the mic-level input the DSLR expects.
I use the method Chris described, so I must admit that I haven't tested this myself.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-09-27 00:35
So the stumbling block may be the point where the tutor states that "not all cameras indicate where the -6dB is and you have to play that back in the video editor." If you do this, do you get the -6dB 1k tone? Once you do, use the volume on the H1n to adjust what you are playing. DO NOT use the low cut filter (that's just for outside) and DO NOT engage the limiter! What you DO want to do is play your loudest note and make sure it only bounce into the YELLOW (no red lights). Any "automatic" anything while recording music is bad.
I think what Peter talks about is why the tutorial has you set the camera volume down the the last notch.
..........Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2020-09-27 00:36)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2020-09-27 00:51
Thanks, yes I see what you mean.
Is it this sort of thing that you have in mind?
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Movo-MV-RC300-Microphone-Attenuator-Monitoring/dp/B073HR6SY4/ref=pd_sbs_23_1/257-7662048-7367050?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B073HR6SY4&pd_rd_r=d7925092-b4ca-42d0-924b-5fe25873cf8b&pd_rd_w=cEnjP&pd_rd_wg=25E1s&pf_rd_p=b9bf232d-9a8a-4c7d-aa9d-641c0995d3a2&pf_rd_r=RPQEX8QGJQNFTK0FD1WT&psc=1&refRID=RPQEX8QGJQNFTK0FD1WT
I see there is an explanation here for doing the same with the zoom and a smartphone.
https://www.smartphonefilmpro.com/is-the-zoom-h1n-the-best-all-round-microphone-for-smartphone-filmmaking/
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2020-09-27 00:53
That article says that one of these (RØDE SC4) is also needed for conversion to a smartphone, but presumably not for a DSLR:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/R%C3%98DE-SC4-iPhone-Accessory-Black/dp/B00L6C8PN0
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Author: Peter B
Date: 2020-09-27 01:27
That's indeed what I mean.
For a smartphone the additional convertor is needed to go from the classic stereo jack (3 contacts, 2 black rings) to stereo+mic jack (4 contacts, 3 rings) as required by ear plug + mic you'd use on a smartphone.
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Author: crusius
Date: 2020-09-27 08:16
Are you sure you can't do as Chris suggests? As long as you don't edit the audio or video, I believe that should qualify as "unedited." The documents I found seem to require recordings to be done in one take and not modified after recording, which seems to be perfectly compatible with a one take dual video and audio recording that is joined together later on.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2020-09-27 12:28
Hi crusius,
I could certainly write and ask. I've already written to ask if it's okay to convert from 1080p to 720p so when I hear back from that I could ask about your idea.
I have ordered the attenuator cable, so I will try that too.
Thanks!
Jennifer
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2020-09-27 13:38
>> no editing is allowed. <<
>> my camera only does 1080p and 480p and they want 720p but I've written to ask if I could do a file conversion just to bring 1080p down to 720p. <<
If you need to load and export the file anyway, why can't you just add the audio while you do this? How could they even know? Since this would be exactly identical to having it there in the video file in the first place, there is no moral problem. It's not like you are taking audio from different takes, cut it, etc. I wouldn't even call this editing.
Sometimes files straight from the camera are unnecessarily large too, and would benefit by exporting to a smaller size (but not always). worth checking if there's a size limit too.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2020-09-27 14:22
Hi Clarnibass,
The file size limit is 2GB for a ten minute exam. I have written to ask editing is permitted. The official line is that it has to come straight from the camera, and I wouldn't do anything that wasn't explicitly permitted, in writing.
I tried recording with the equipment that I have just now (no attenuator cable yet) and I think it came out quite nicely. I set the camera gain to one notch above zero, and the volume of the zoom to produce -6db-ish. Then I set the gain on the zoom so that the bar that shows what it hears never went off the top limit with any of my loudest notes, or off the bottom with the quietest notes.
I then recorded myself practicing and I think it was quite nice. If that works then the only problem remaining is that my camera doesn't produce 720p, but that's good to have fewer problems. Maybe it will be even better with the attenuator cable. I have attached the file here.
Thanks!
Jen
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-09-27 16:49
I have a question. Are you meeting your file size limitation?
When I do a simple four minute track (one mono voice) to a video shot on an iPad, my file sizes are upwards of 200 GB.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: Chris_C ★2017
Date: 2020-09-27 17:45
.MOV files - the default for iPads and iPhones are indeed huge. Just recoding from MOV to MP4 (which I would argue is not editing) will compress by at least a factor of 10 and maybe 100 - depends on all the parameters of course. 4 minutes can give good audio and acceptable video in 20Mbyte if done carefully.
Chris
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2020-09-27 19:40
Hi,
That's really interesting to know.
When I record at 1080p with the H1n, 10 minutes would be 3.5GB. I think when I converted that to 720p it came out as 200MB, so it really made a very big difference. The file size limit is 2GB even for grade 8 which would be a 30 minute video.
I just did a complete video of me playing all four of my tunes, and when I got to the end it turned out that the camera hadn't started recording but the H1n had, so that was another useful lesson learned.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2020-09-27 19:46
I just got lucky! I found in one of the many guides and webpages and videos about the performance exam, this line:
"If the resolution of the video is too high, the file may be too large or slow to upload. In these circumstances, the file should be compressed to ensure it uploads successfully. "
So that means that I can compress it from 1080p to 720p and that is okay. Phew!
I also found this though:
"The recording must be of a good enough quality to allow assessment of all aspects of the performance,
including tone quality and dynamic range. Examiners will mark based on what they hear and see, and
they cannot take poor quality- or balance of- a recording into account. We will not accept any requests
for exam result appeals made on the grounds of recording quality."
So that means that if people follow the instructions to use a phone, tablet or webcam and get a rubbish recording then they will not do as well in the exam probably. Tricky!
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2020-09-27 20:10
>> So that means that I can compress it from 1080p to 720p and that is okay. Phew! <<
I'd say that you can add the separate audio track, if you need to, when you do this. Since it's the same track without any edits, it doesn't matter even if they don't know.
By the way the request for 720p is a bit ridiculous. As long as the file is not so large which can be annoying, why does it matter?
I guess it's a way to make sure files are smaller than what they would have been if they were FHD, but a rule like this is a little weird.
>> When I do a simple four minute track (one mono voice) to a video shot on an iPad, my file sizes are upwards of 200 GB. <<
Did you mean 200MB? A basic iPad Pro doesn't even have 200GB of space
I just checked a 30 seconds FHD MOV file from a good camera, it's about 75MB, which would be about 600MB for a four minute file.
Post Edited (2020-09-28 06:16)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-09-28 00:42
Oops........so right Clarnibass, 200MB it is! The video file is so large, I left the ProTools session in WAV format (usually bounce to MP3 to save space!).
............Paul Aviles
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2020-09-28 13:29
This business of recording myself turns out to be really good. I had no idea before, but it turns out I look weird, sound rubbish, and really need to stop swaying back and forward when I play. I think that although this is intended as an examining tool, it may also be a really persuasive teaching tool.
On the plus side, I've not got sound and video recording down to a fine art. Yay!
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2020-09-28 16:02
I have used my Zoom as a microphone for my Canon DSLR many times.
I have a lead coming out of the headphone socket of the Zoom, and into the microphone socket of the camera.
The Zoom then works as a microphone when it is in record stand-by. It does not actually need to be recording.
At the camera end, go into the movie setting and make sure 'audio in' is manual, and it will need to be turned down really low so there is no blow out of sound.
Just test record and adjust until you get it right.
Chris J
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2020-09-28 17:44
Thanks Chris,
That is what I'm doing now too and it is good. The bit I had to do after that was just to make sure that the bar on the zoom screen was never maxing out when I am playing and then it seems to be fine.
Thanks for all of the help on this thread. Getting the video feedback is really helping my playing a lot.
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