 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: George Stalle
Date: 2020-09-17 20:10
Anyone notice that synthetic cork on the tenon joints doesn't sound as good as real cork? Is it just me, or am I imagining that? I'm of the opinion that the sound of the instrument transmits better and more warmly with real cork.
Thanks for your thoughts. (Maybe I'm a clarinet snob as I play on a 1968 Buffet!)
George Stalle
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2020-09-17 20:29
I'm not sure I've ever had synthetic cork on my tenons or been aware of it. Why would it make a difference? I wonder if bassoonists wonder if their instruments sound different when their tenons wrapped with cork or with silk thread?
There might be a difference if the joints seal better with one than the other, but that might depend as much or more on the workmanship of whoever installed the corks.
I guess the answer is that, if you hear a difference, whether or not you're imagining it, then for you there *is* a difference. It isn't unreasonable to make sure your corks are natural cork. There are other reasons (longevity, workability) than the sound quality that repairers here on the BB have said they prefer genuine cork for tenons, so it probably isn't a bad thing to insist on.
Karl
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2020-09-17 20:44
Real cork over synthetic 'cork' any day for tenon corks. Real cork is easier to work with, sands well and if well maintained and high quality cork grease is used regularly (not the typical cheapo lipstick-style crap), they will last for years if not decades.
I've no idea how tenon corks can have any effect on the sound (provided they seal well and the tenons are a good fit in their sockets), but from what I've seen, most synthetic cork substitutes that have been used tend to either end up becoming sticky, compress and don't recover well or don't adhere well to the adhesive.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: George Stalle
Date: 2020-09-17 21:52
I feel that, scientifically, there must be a slight difference in sound as different materials have different sound conduction characteristics. If only I had an oscilloscope! Ah well, I'll find out soon when I switch back to real cork!
George Stalle
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-09-17 22:11
I had a pretty good side-by-side with a Buffet Divine purchased by my Army band. I was a bit taken aback by the "softer" sound that the RC based instrument was generating (the horn is outfitted with those grey synthetic corks that are meant to be used without cork grease).......so I went ahead and had it re-corked.
It didn't change a thing.
So in that instance I would say........NO.
I wanted to experiment with synthetic corks on my personal horn anyway and was told by my repair guy that he had the worst time trying to get the synthetic corks to adhere to tenons of other horns and basically refused my request to give it a whirl on mine.
When I went as far as requesting a special order horn from Buffet (for which they would charge $8000 for a horn anyone could buy for $4000) they refused. But did offer to provide the synthetic material and allow me to find someone willing to put it in.
So that's another issue.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2020-09-17 22:25
George Stalle wrote:
> I feel that, scientifically, there must be a slight difference
> in sound as different materials have different sound conduction
> characteristics. If only I had an oscilloscope! Ah well, I'll
> find out soon when I switch back to real cork!
>
"I feel that, scientifically" is something of an oxymoron. Science deals with the measurable and the verifiable. Feelings (suspicions, intuitions, etc.) may be part of a process of forming a rough hypothesis (which is what your idea is), but until you've tested it (with an oscilloscope? or at least with human test subjects listening to several differently corked clarinets) it isn't a fact. I'd counter that, even if there really is a difference in the sound measurable with sensitive equipment, it would then matter whether or not the difference is meaningful - is it audible to human hearing?
The idea that there "must be" a difference because "different materials have different sound conduction characteristics" assumes there is any sound conduction that is humanly perceptible from the tenons. Besides, the scientific community is not at all agreed that the sound an instrument emits is really dependent on the material it's made of. Musical instrumentalists seem to think so, but we aren't as a community known especially for our scientific objectivity.
It isn't in any case a point worth debating. Make sure your repair guy uses natural cork and you'll never have to worry about any difference.
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-09-18 01:52
Karl,
I would agree, somewhat hesitantly, that it is not a scientifically measurable instance. But then not much if any of what we do is.
You probably at least have a favorite clarinet because it sounds better to you, or is easier for you to do what you want. None of that is science per se but I think we all have things that work better for us than others.........even ligatures that look remarkably like dog harnesses.
If we eliminate all of the discussion of equipment here on the Board because it is not "measurable," all we'd have left is Tony Pay..........sad.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2020-09-18 04:57
Paul Aviles wrote:
> Karl,
>
> I would agree, somewhat hesitantly, that it is not a
> scientifically measurable instance. But then not much if any
> of what we do is.
My issue wasn't that any difference couldn't be measured. It certainly could be. You could test as identical as possible instruments a few with synthetic cork and a few with natural cork. You could use an oscilloscope as George suggests. Or, to test whether or not there is a humanly perceptible difference (which is really what matters), you could have several musically competent listeners evaluate those same instruments for any differences in sound.
My point was that (a) you include "feel" and "science" in the same sentence at the risk of writing nonsense and (b) you state as scientific fact something that is widely debated among scientists at the risk of sounding uninformed.
> You probably at least have a favorite clarinet because it
> sounds better to you, or is easier for you to do what you want.
> None of that is science per se but I think we all have things
> that work better for us than others.
So, in my opinion, that favorite clarinet performs better. Scientific? Of course not. That's the point. You shouldn't call something science that's simply opinion or intuition or "belief" or "feeling." There's nothing wrong with making judgements based on those, but you can't elevate those judgements to the level of scientific fact.
>........even ligatures that
> look remarkably like dog harnesses.
>
And camo, at that!
>
> If we eliminate all of the discussion of equipment here on the
> Board because it is not "measurable," all we'd have left is
> Tony Pay..........sad.
I didn't suggest eliminating the discussion, just maybe being more precise in the language that's used. And that's really all, I think, that someone like Tony asks (since you invoked him), that ideas be thought through and opinion and fact be kept scrupulously separated.
Karl
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2020-09-18 08:01
>> Anyone notice that synthetic cork on the tenon joints doesn't sound as good as real cork? <<
No, and I held it really close to my ears...
I've tried several types of synthetic cork on a few clarinets and I have to say no... though I didn't like them for other reasons.
>> and was told by my repair guy that he had the worst time trying to get the synthetic corks to adhere to tenons of other horns and basically refused my request to give it a whirl on mine. <<
One type of synthetic cork in particular is problematic in that if some materials touch it (like acetone, lighter fluid, alcohol, which might be used for cleaning keys, etc.) it can lose its ability to glue and eventually fall off. I suspect it also loses its ability to glue from regular stuff getting to it, like grease from fingers, random dirt, etc. because I had it on my own clarinet and it started loosening much sooner than regular cork.
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Author: George Stalle
Date: 2020-09-18 19:18
Karl and Philip,
Nice discussion and healthy debate. I suspect that the truth lies somewhere in between what can be measured and what I hear.
I've played my Buffet for 50 years at a reasonably high level, so when I changed to the synthetic cork tenon joints, I noticed an immediate difference. The sound was a little tighter and less open. I'm the first one who has to be happy with what I'm hearing. If it sounds right to me, then there you have it.
But the cork vs. synthetic sound difference I experienced pales in comparison to the differences that can be achieved through a good reed, a ligature or a barrel, to name a few physical tweaks to sound enhancement.
Cheers, all.
George Stalle
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2020-09-18 19:36
George Stalle wrote:
> so when I changed to the synthetic cork tenon joints, I noticed
> an immediate difference. The sound was a little tighter and
> less open.
So, was anything else done to the clarinet at the same time the corks were replaced? Did you do the corks or have it done at a shop? If at a shop, was it there for general maintenance or specifically for the corks?
Could any of the older corks have been fitting poorly enough that they were leaking, even slightly?
I'm risking belaboring a point that I've already said doesn't really matter much. Using natural cork doesn't have any real downside, so it really isn't a trade-off of benefits. And the general opinion among the repair people who have chimed in here seems to be that they'd prefer to use natural cork. So whether or not the difference you heard was because of the material or because of something else that changed when the corks were replaced, it doesn't seem that there's any reason for you (or anyone else) to do tenons with synthetic cork. Seems as if using synthetic on tenons is all downside with no upside to balance it.
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-09-18 23:03
In theory the upside to synthetic cork (hence my early persistence) is that it would not be subject to swelling and contracting in the presence of, and the absence of moisture.
Of course there are the o-ring mouthpieces of Brad Behn and Maxton. Perhaps we can get one of Buffet's competitors to commit to being the first clarinet manufacturer to feature o-ring tenons.
............Pau Aviles
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Author: Elkwoman46
Date: 2020-10-02 04:23
Greetings to you all. It has been a long time since I posted. I saw this topic, and I thought I would share what I heard a long time ago about it, and it pertained to me. Due to the internet, some time ago now, I found myself with several clarinets, and someone dear to me made a sturdy clarinet stand with four dowels to hold four clarinets on a wooden platform. I saw on YouTube back then someone had a massive display for many clarinets, and I so desired something like this in small...and then the gift. What I did not realize, is this is not really recommended due to the corks, as in constant use natural corks might not recover and will wear-shrink much faster....causing the clarinet to not hold probably together. And it happened to one of them. I did read somewhere that the synthetic would not do this so readily, so it could be a better option if on a stand and not in the case.
I do not have any synthetic cork, so I really do not even know how it feels or the texture. In my own clarinet repairs, I have made one very successful real cork replacement, and it was indeed a lot of work to get it just right. Also, taking a candle and rubbing the paraffin? on the cork (one time only before cork grease) will help create a barrier between the cork and the cork grease, as I had heard recently that the grease can over much time dissolve the contact cement that holds the cork on the clarinet.
I hope I am not causing contention, as I mean no harm...just sharing what I know/heard on the matter. Let me know if this is false information. Thanks.
Karen MSC
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-10-02 06:01
No contention. Paraffin is a standard treatment for a tenon cork.
And actually, I was curious about the compression (or lack thereof?) of synthetic cork for much the same reason. I am fastidious about taking the sections apart immediately after playing but I know there are some out there that claim they'd never practice if they had to take that time.
Unfortunately, synthetic tenon cork is still (for the above stated problems) not readily available as a solution for this problem. Yet, only experimentation would tell whether the sheer act of becoming compressed (even without the added moisture factor) would cause synthetic tenons to stay compressed over time.
Maybe some Buffet Divine owners would be able to speak to this.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: Burt
Date: 2020-10-02 17:51
I believe that the body of a clarinet is not supposed to vibrate, and the little vibration which occurs is wasted energy. It's the air column which maintains the useful vibration. Metals have much different acoustic properties than wood or hard rubber, but the dimensions of a metal clarinet are nearly the same.
If a two-piece chime were built, the material connecting the sections would be vitally important, because it is the metal, not the air inside, which produces the vibration (tone).
Once I broke off the cork between the long joints assembling the clarinet for a rehearsal. I used paper to replace it, and it worked. Of course, that's not a practical long-term solution, but it demonstrates how unimportant the choice of tenon cork material is. Any material which prevents leakage and holds the connection stable is playable.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2020-10-02 18:02
Burt wrote:
> Once I broke off the cork between the long joints assembling
> the clarinet for a rehearsal. I used paper to replace it, and
> it worked. Of course, that's not a practical long-term
> solution, but it demonstrates how unimportant the choice of
> tenon cork material is. Any material which prevents leakage and
> holds the connection stable is playable.
Likewise, people now use Teflon plumber's tape as an emergency repair if a cork tears loose, and thread is used even today on some woodwind instrument tenons routinely (maybe even on older clarinets?). And Brad Behn uses rubber O-rings on the tenons of his best mouthpieces.
I've used both tape and thread without hearing a difference, unless the seal with the original cork had been compromised and the emergency replacement actually improved it.
Karl
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